KBD
New Member
Yeah, i ran over a year and i had side effects, i dont care who you are, your going to get some sort of side effects. Hell i got them on my first run.
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MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Fucked by Finasteride / calling all expert steroid users
- Thread starter Shaolin
- Start date
Yeah, i ran over a year and i had side effects, i dont care who you are, your going to get some sort of side effects. Hell i got them on my first run.
Attempting to moderate every post that has "wildly stupid shit" would be like trying to clean the Aegean stables.
Hercules did it by diverting a river to flow through them, and thus got rid of all the shit, but for the mortal among us it's impossible to utterly clean out the nonsense.
I don't attempt to specifically rebut every post that may have poor advice in it: if sound advice is also present then let each decide for himself.
Hercules did it by diverting a river to flow through them, and thus got rid of all the shit, but for the mortal among us it's impossible to utterly clean out the nonsense.
I don't attempt to specifically rebut every post that may have poor advice in it: if sound advice is also present then let each decide for himself.
To tell you the truth, that's the only one I still remember. 
Re: Finasteride side effects / trying to control e2
As mentioned in other posts, I don't think it can be expected that reducing your (normal) estrogen level is going to cure this symptom. By no means should exemestane dosing be based on this symptom.
Being more conscious of the nipples can result in a persuasive feeling that they have become painful. This has happened to many.
Alternately, is this pharmaceutical Aromasin?
Now while I can't imagine why a company selling a bogus underground product would substitute, for example, Dianabol, still, if it's an UG product then it isn't known for a fact what you have there.
However, the "psychological gyno" phenomenon is well-known in bb'ing and has been experienced by very many. You are not being insulted when it's being suggested that this could be a possibility. It really can happen (seem absolutely real when it is not) to absolutely ordinary and normal individuals. It may be hard to actually feel pain in other areas of the body where there is no physical pain, but for some reason it's easy with the nipples.
Dostinex doesn't decrease progesterone. As to whether prolactin needs to be decreased, I wouldn't judge it from the above impression -- regardless of how strong it seems -- but actually measure prolactin level.
Likewise on the exemestane dosing: measure.
Unfortunately I have no suggestions on adjusting the progesterone. level.
25 mg/day is a reasonable estimate for a dose: if you want to try that and do your estradiol test based on that dosage instead of the 12.5 mg, that would be fine. You could do either.
Well, you know, you have blood tests showing normal levels of DHT and not-out-of-whack relation of estradiol to testosterone but you insist that you have extremely low conversion to DHT and you insist that you have extreme conversion of T to E.
Nothing, it seems, will shake you of these conclusions.
As mentioned in other posts, I don't think it can be expected that reducing your (normal) estrogen level is going to cure this symptom. By no means should exemestane dosing be based on this symptom.
Being more conscious of the nipples can result in a persuasive feeling that they have become painful. This has happened to many.
Alternately, is this pharmaceutical Aromasin?
Now while I can't imagine why a company selling a bogus underground product would substitute, for example, Dianabol, still, if it's an UG product then it isn't known for a fact what you have there.
However, the "psychological gyno" phenomenon is well-known in bb'ing and has been experienced by very many. You are not being insulted when it's being suggested that this could be a possibility. It really can happen (seem absolutely real when it is not) to absolutely ordinary and normal individuals. It may be hard to actually feel pain in other areas of the body where there is no physical pain, but for some reason it's easy with the nipples.
Dostinex doesn't decrease progesterone. As to whether prolactin needs to be decreased, I wouldn't judge it from the above impression -- regardless of how strong it seems -- but actually measure prolactin level.
Likewise on the exemestane dosing: measure.
Unfortunately I have no suggestions on adjusting the progesterone. level.
25 mg/day is a reasonable estimate for a dose: if you want to try that and do your estradiol test based on that dosage instead of the 12.5 mg, that would be fine. You could do either.
Well, you know, you have blood tests showing normal levels of DHT and not-out-of-whack relation of estradiol to testosterone but you insist that you have extremely low conversion to DHT and you insist that you have extreme conversion of T to E.
Nothing, it seems, will shake you of these conclusions.
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man, my advice is good, you see he is not a normal steroid user, he is a fina affected user, they need heavy shit to knock their body back into normality. I just know this, its a hunch based on common sense, sometimes the experts cant see shit, and its there infront of them. These guys need heavy doses and need extra dht.
Man, shoalin, go take a shit load of masteron and shoot some test. Then go screw every ho out there into a coma. Have fun yo. Then do yo PCT and chill, see what happens.
To doc Scally, Yo man, what ya mean i should not be listened to? I done da juice and i came off and i was fine my man, i did it for nearly a year and then did 4 weeks of clomid and i did not feel any different when i came off, it was seamless dude, same sort of energy and same sort of libido so whatcha talkin about? I had more libido when i came, than i did when i was on. LOL. So what will yo expert opinion say about that? What will yo expert say to shoalin?, he been callin experts for a while and you not responded.
kbd, yo, u telling takes like a rat, you grass, you should just man up and admit i owned yo ass homie.
Man, shoalin, go take a shit load of masteron and shoot some test. Then go screw every ho out there into a coma. Have fun yo. Then do yo PCT and chill, see what happens.
To doc Scally, Yo man, what ya mean i should not be listened to? I done da juice and i came off and i was fine my man, i did it for nearly a year and then did 4 weeks of clomid and i did not feel any different when i came off, it was seamless dude, same sort of energy and same sort of libido so whatcha talkin about? I had more libido when i came, than i did when i was on. LOL. So what will yo expert opinion say about that? What will yo expert say to shoalin?, he been callin experts for a while and you not responded.
kbd, yo, u telling takes like a rat, you grass, you should just man up and admit i owned yo ass homie.
KBD
New Member
KBD
New Member
How can someone be so educated on something with such horrible slang/grammar? Thats right your not educated on anything.
Talking Ghetto doesn't make you a hard-ass nor does it make you look tough, it just makes you look more stupid.
Re: Finasteride side effects / trying to control e2
I've got to admit it, Shaolin, this is exactly what I've been feeling. You've been getting solid, reasonable advice from me and Bill, but its the guy who first tells you that you're crazy, and then tells you to blast your body with shitloads of steroids that you listen to.
I think the only pill you need right now is a chill pill.
Bill is dead on when he tells you that some of your endos have scape-goated some of your bloodwork because they don't really know what is happening. Those values aren't really that abnormal, and shouldn't be causing the debilitating symptoms that you've been experiencing. Regardless of this, it is pretty easy to rule out these possibilities by just correcting the values.
I've taken a look at some of your posts on propeciahelp.com (you must be solonjk). Previously, it looks like some of your free T and dht were pretty low. This is something that would easily be corrected with the Testim that your doctor gave you. Testim is really good shit for this sort of thing. It keeps your levels consistently in the high-normal range (or better), and it is particularly good at elevating DHT levels, because you spread the gel over a wide area of skin, unlike patches (like Androderm) that cover only a small area. Use the gel by itself, and see what happens to your blood work in three weeks. If your E is too high, then take the aromatase inhibitor. Balancing free T, dht, and E to normal physiological levels is not particularly difficult, even among people in your demographic. If you get these levels normal, and you are still having issues, then it is not likely to be due to any of them.
It also appears that one of your urologists said that you had severe prostatitis. Did you take the antibiotic course, as recommended, and see him for follow up? If you have an infection in your balls, you would definitely have the symptoms you are experiencing.
And these kinds of changes don't happen overnight. For example, you say that you took an AI one day, and the next day you are disappointed because your nipples are still sore. It isn't going to get corrected overnight.
My point is this: to rule out a theory about what is wrong with you, you need to treat it correctly, and see if the symptoms persist when the treatment works as designed. I don't think you are going to get anywhere with your current approach. In order for us to help you, you must modify your approach so that you can help yourself.
As far as high progesterone goes, this is not important if it is not a consistent finding. It is in the adrenal pathway, so if you so much as get stressed out, and your ACTH shoots up, your progesterone will fucking skyrocket. One time, an inexperienced phlebotomist drew my blood, and fucked up my vein. She kept pulling it out, and moving it around when it was in, trying to correct the positioning. I got all pissed off and demanded that someone else take my blood. They complied, but it ended up being a complete waste of money: all of my adrenal values were sky high as a result of the stress (ACTH was 450 (6-48 pg/mL), 17-OH pregnenolone was 1200 (53-357 ng/dL), etc.). My values have been normal otherwise.
After all, there could be a totally unrelated cause to some of your symptoms. You talk about absolutely being bed-ridden with fatigue. What would it mean if your hormonal levels were totally normal during this period? It would probably mean that you should be looking at causes of fatigue other than hormones, like mononucleosis, giardiasis, etc.
If you resolve yourself to just doing what you have to do to monitor and correct any issues in your steroidogenesis pathways, you can effectively narrow down a diagnosis, or eliminate entire realms of possibilities entirely. If you find that it is not hormone related, you don't have to accept the conclusion that you are crazy, rather you need to explore different avenues and different doctors.
My 2 cents.
I've got to admit it, Shaolin, this is exactly what I've been feeling. You've been getting solid, reasonable advice from me and Bill, but its the guy who first tells you that you're crazy, and then tells you to blast your body with shitloads of steroids that you listen to.
I think the only pill you need right now is a chill pill.
Bill is dead on when he tells you that some of your endos have scape-goated some of your bloodwork because they don't really know what is happening. Those values aren't really that abnormal, and shouldn't be causing the debilitating symptoms that you've been experiencing. Regardless of this, it is pretty easy to rule out these possibilities by just correcting the values.
I've taken a look at some of your posts on propeciahelp.com (you must be solonjk). Previously, it looks like some of your free T and dht were pretty low. This is something that would easily be corrected with the Testim that your doctor gave you. Testim is really good shit for this sort of thing. It keeps your levels consistently in the high-normal range (or better), and it is particularly good at elevating DHT levels, because you spread the gel over a wide area of skin, unlike patches (like Androderm) that cover only a small area. Use the gel by itself, and see what happens to your blood work in three weeks. If your E is too high, then take the aromatase inhibitor. Balancing free T, dht, and E to normal physiological levels is not particularly difficult, even among people in your demographic. If you get these levels normal, and you are still having issues, then it is not likely to be due to any of them.
It also appears that one of your urologists said that you had severe prostatitis. Did you take the antibiotic course, as recommended, and see him for follow up? If you have an infection in your balls, you would definitely have the symptoms you are experiencing.
And these kinds of changes don't happen overnight. For example, you say that you took an AI one day, and the next day you are disappointed because your nipples are still sore. It isn't going to get corrected overnight.
My point is this: to rule out a theory about what is wrong with you, you need to treat it correctly, and see if the symptoms persist when the treatment works as designed. I don't think you are going to get anywhere with your current approach. In order for us to help you, you must modify your approach so that you can help yourself.
As far as high progesterone goes, this is not important if it is not a consistent finding. It is in the adrenal pathway, so if you so much as get stressed out, and your ACTH shoots up, your progesterone will fucking skyrocket. One time, an inexperienced phlebotomist drew my blood, and fucked up my vein. She kept pulling it out, and moving it around when it was in, trying to correct the positioning. I got all pissed off and demanded that someone else take my blood. They complied, but it ended up being a complete waste of money: all of my adrenal values were sky high as a result of the stress (ACTH was 450 (6-48 pg/mL), 17-OH pregnenolone was 1200 (53-357 ng/dL), etc.). My values have been normal otherwise.
After all, there could be a totally unrelated cause to some of your symptoms. You talk about absolutely being bed-ridden with fatigue. What would it mean if your hormonal levels were totally normal during this period? It would probably mean that you should be looking at causes of fatigue other than hormones, like mononucleosis, giardiasis, etc.
If you resolve yourself to just doing what you have to do to monitor and correct any issues in your steroidogenesis pathways, you can effectively narrow down a diagnosis, or eliminate entire realms of possibilities entirely. If you find that it is not hormone related, you don't have to accept the conclusion that you are crazy, rather you need to explore different avenues and different doctors.
My 2 cents.
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liftermo:
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youngstunna
New Member
)][
KBD
New Member
I figured you would get a kick outa that scally lol
Well, this has rolled into a serious flamish thread.
The funny thing is that despite the fact that the guy "liftermo" was pretty slangish and un-scientific in his posts doesn't mean that he was way far in his suggestions from what some docs have suggested or some ex-finasteride users have tried. Huge doses of Testosterone or AAS to boost 5-ar II and then PCT. Its really not far from what he said. Its just the way he said it.
My situation worsens as we speak by the way. Today visited the university hospital and doctors are still baffled. On monday i will be going to do some tests to rule out autoimmune disorder - which is very difficult to be the case, since on ultrasound the structure of my testicles is perfect- it just seems to shrink as time goes by- nothing more or less.
Then visiting Sweden next week to get more testing done and acquire more knowledge on my the issue but i think that i will be coming to the States in the end to get to some more practical and experienced doctors to look into this.
The only issue, is that i don't know who may have knowledge to help me with all this shit
The funny thing is that despite the fact that the guy "liftermo" was pretty slangish and un-scientific in his posts doesn't mean that he was way far in his suggestions from what some docs have suggested or some ex-finasteride users have tried. Huge doses of Testosterone or AAS to boost 5-ar II and then PCT. Its really not far from what he said. Its just the way he said it.
My situation worsens as we speak by the way. Today visited the university hospital and doctors are still baffled. On monday i will be going to do some tests to rule out autoimmune disorder - which is very difficult to be the case, since on ultrasound the structure of my testicles is perfect- it just seems to shrink as time goes by- nothing more or less.
Then visiting Sweden next week to get more testing done and acquire more knowledge on my the issue but i think that i will be coming to the States in the end to get to some more practical and experienced doctors to look into this.
The only issue, is that i don't know who may have knowledge to help me with all this shit
Traish AM, Hassani J, Guay AT, Zitzmann M, Hansen ML. Adverse Side Effects of 5alpha-Reductase Inhibitors Therapy: Persistent Diminished Libido and Erectile Dysfunction and Depression in a Subset of Patients. J Sex Med. Adverse Side Effects of 5[]-Reductase Inhibitors Therapy: Persistent Diminished Libido and Erectile Dysfunction and Depression in a Subset of Patients - Traish - 2010 - The Journal of Sexual Medicine - Wiley Online Library
Introduction. 5alpha-reductase inhibitors (5alpha-RIs), finasteride and dutasteride, have been approved for treatment of lower urinary tract symptoms, due to benign prostatic hyperplasia, with marked clinical efficacy. Finasteride is also approved for treatment of hair loss (androgenetic alopecia). Although the adverse side effects of these agents are thought to be minimal, the magnitude of adverse effects on sexual function, gynecomastia, depression, and quality of life remains ill-defined.
Aim. The goal of this review is to discuss 5alpha-RIs therapy, the potential persistent side effects, and the possible mechanisms responsible for these undesirable effects. Methods. We examined data reported in various clinical studies from the available literature concerning the side effects of finasteride and dutasteride.
Main Outcome Measures. Data reported in the literature were reviewed and discussed.
Results. Prolonged adverse effects on sexual function such as erectile dysfunction and diminished libido are reported by a subset of men, raising the possibility of a causal relationship.
Conclusions. We suggest discussion with patients on the potential sexual side effects of 5alpha-RIs before commencing therapy. Alternative therapies may be considered in the discussion, especially when treating androgenetic alopecia.
Introduction. 5alpha-reductase inhibitors (5alpha-RIs), finasteride and dutasteride, have been approved for treatment of lower urinary tract symptoms, due to benign prostatic hyperplasia, with marked clinical efficacy. Finasteride is also approved for treatment of hair loss (androgenetic alopecia). Although the adverse side effects of these agents are thought to be minimal, the magnitude of adverse effects on sexual function, gynecomastia, depression, and quality of life remains ill-defined.
Aim. The goal of this review is to discuss 5alpha-RIs therapy, the potential persistent side effects, and the possible mechanisms responsible for these undesirable effects. Methods. We examined data reported in various clinical studies from the available literature concerning the side effects of finasteride and dutasteride.
Main Outcome Measures. Data reported in the literature were reviewed and discussed.
Results. Prolonged adverse effects on sexual function such as erectile dysfunction and diminished libido are reported by a subset of men, raising the possibility of a causal relationship.
Conclusions. We suggest discussion with patients on the potential sexual side effects of 5alpha-RIs before commencing therapy. Alternative therapies may be considered in the discussion, especially when treating androgenetic alopecia.
less than 20 ml as measured in Karolinska University . It was 42 ml one year ago in my cities University Hospital. And 36 ml in September measured in Athens University Hospital. Now the rate of atrophy is outstanding. I reckon i have a dual problem by now, testicular inflammation because of the high prostaglandins e2 and atrophy because of the blockage of T to dht conversion and subsequent E2 rise.
This is the closest i can get to a diagnosis.
I am trying to bring down prostaglandins with big doses of omega-3 and vitamin E, also thinking of incorporating some endorphin boosters. And then treat with some anti-estrogens. I don't think i can get back any size in my testis though, because it was lost mostly due to inflammation rather than direct and sole effects of E2.
This is the closest i can get to a diagnosis.
I am trying to bring down prostaglandins with big doses of omega-3 and vitamin E, also thinking of incorporating some endorphin boosters. And then treat with some anti-estrogens. I don't think i can get back any size in my testis though, because it was lost mostly due to inflammation rather than direct and sole effects of E2.
Nice find, Dr. Scally.
Ok so I am starting to assume there is no way for us to upregulate 5-AR 2 and/or no way to supplement 3-adiol-g? I have been trying everything... doing HcG and HMG + tamoxifen atm.
I tried lovastatin and ezetimibe, alpha sustain and more supps then u can imagine...
Nothing seems to work except I do get temporary relief from DHEA in rather large doses, but its still not like before...
Only thing that has improved somewhat is sleep. Because I used Clonzepam to reset my sleep cycle.
I have been on the verge of a complete mental breakdown lately as my depression has been astronomical. I've been to the emergency room and they didn't give me a thing. Even when I told them I was having suicidal thoughts.
Is there anything on earth that might fix 5 AR or 3-adiol G?
One thing I tell docs as proof something has fundamentally changed in my body is I used to get acne cists on the back of my neck b4 finasteride that resolved while on it... when I got off they came back for 3 days (pre-crash) and now have been gone for 10 weeks post use... also body hair, on my legs seem to be reduced... this is all related to 3-adiol-g.
Is there no hope for us? Why doesn't Merck seem to care? My life has been ruined by this I'm in my 20's, prime of my life and this stuff has killed my libido and erections. I may never be able to have kids or have a normal relationship thanks to this damn drug.
I tried lovastatin and ezetimibe, alpha sustain and more supps then u can imagine...
Nothing seems to work except I do get temporary relief from DHEA in rather large doses, but its still not like before...
Only thing that has improved somewhat is sleep. Because I used Clonzepam to reset my sleep cycle.
I have been on the verge of a complete mental breakdown lately as my depression has been astronomical. I've been to the emergency room and they didn't give me a thing. Even when I told them I was having suicidal thoughts.
Is there anything on earth that might fix 5 AR or 3-adiol G?
One thing I tell docs as proof something has fundamentally changed in my body is I used to get acne cists on the back of my neck b4 finasteride that resolved while on it... when I got off they came back for 3 days (pre-crash) and now have been gone for 10 weeks post use... also body hair, on my legs seem to be reduced... this is all related to 3-adiol-g.
Is there no hope for us? Why doesn't Merck seem to care? My life has been ruined by this I'm in my 20's, prime of my life and this stuff has killed my libido and erections. I may never be able to have kids or have a normal relationship thanks to this damn drug.
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