Fucked by Finasteride / calling all expert steroid users

[Bill Roberts]

I think you are coming to conclusions that there isn't evidence to support. There is no evidence that you are having "overwhelming" activity of aromatase. Very very many men have just as much T to E conversion as your test showed, or more.

You have a little more than optimal, but this is no explanation for the testicular pain or atrophy.

Further, estradiol is not known to cause testicular pain. There are any number of steroid users who have used, and even to this day some continue to use, no antiaromatase while using very large amounts of T, with resulting very high E2.

I haven't measured my estrogen levels when using only trenbolone and 50 mg/day Dianabol but I recall back when having done that quite some while back the value was near the very high end of normal.

Anabolic steroids don't increase progesterone.

It is true that estrogen levels can increase tendency towards autoimmunity but your levels are not abnormally high, or at least were not in this test. And again, in and of itself high estrogen doesn't lead to testicular pain.

I'm afraid that the exact situation you are suffering is a mystery, and the doctors you've seen haven't pinpointed the answer. I think the ones that any that talk to you about DHT and androstanediol glucuronide and so forth as explanations for your testicular pain, instead of being simply probably minor things to note and perhaps related but not the direct cause, don't know what the underlying problem is. Fortunately this doesn't mean that no doctor can pinpoint the actual current cause and specify the correct treatment.

 

[liftermo]

Bill,

Test Cypionate increases progesterone.

To The OP, for gods sake shut up already, for the record, I used fina for 10 straight years and i have had no issues. These men complaining are either very fragile in terms of endocrine system or its all in their heads and they think too much. If its the case they have fragile endocrine systems then they would have 'fallen down to hypogonadism' anyway at some point in their lives whether through aging or otherwise, and most likely these are guys who i beleive have 'weak' hormone levels. Hell even soya can cause some men to lose libido! So merck aint it at fault, you guys were the weak ones who would die of anyway in the natural world and we do live in a natural selection world, survival of the fittest. I taken everything steroids, soya, saw palmetto, fina, proscar and i can still hump good everyday if i want to.

Now quit thinking too much and go eat some red meat and jerk off to some good porn. That will solve it.

 

[Bill Roberts]

I think it would be more accurate to say that there is one doctor who has expressed a belief that testosterone cypionate increases progesterone and some examples of individuals that have lab results that have increased progesterone and testosterone cypionate use coincident with each other, but (am I correct?) no provided published scientific evidence that it is so and no proposed mechanism that has any support in the scientific literature, and no common if indeed any observation of bb'ers over time of any detectable difference in behavior between testosterone cypionate or any other sort of testosterone.

It might be the case that this occurs, but it also may be that fluky things occur and are sometimes observed and noted but not recognized as being flukes.

What with the massive fear (of many anyway) of progestagenic effects, if testosterone cypionate significantly increases progesterone how did associated problems with test cyp utterly escape notice all these decades? So for this reason it seems quite possibly a fluke phenomenon rather than a general outcome.

I have made some effort to find literature support for this and found none.

Whether it's so or not doesn't change the OP's situation or what his cause or cure may be though.

 

[Shaolin]

Well if it was only me, then i would say that i am just unlucky and my genes where predisposed to something like that. But the fact that theres like 10.000 fda reports about finasteride side effects prompts to a different conclusion. Or the fact that Swedish Food and Drug agency has changed finasteride status as to causing irreversible sexual side effects possibly indicates that im not the only one who has problems with this drug in this world.

http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=20788&name=PROPECIA

look at other people's idea about finasteride

 

[liftermo]

Well, if i be honest my view is that men with lower test levels will fall to this condition, only 10 000 out of millions of users is not much, it just maybe afftected people with naturally lower dht levels or perhaps the weaker endocrine systems that would have fallen to hypogonadism anyway..

To put things in perspective back in the day i was taking fina, saw palmetto, soya protien shakes and was natural and still pounding my girlffrind 3 times a day everyday at age of 28. I never noticed a decline.Then i get told soya is no good and dump it for whey. Continued fina and saw palmetto, took saw palmetto xos i wanted to make sure i did not go bald, did them for 10 years. lol.
.
If fina was that bad then it would be banned and it would not even have been licensed in first place so clearly they deemed it to be safe.

Most of the guys on that forum seem like psychiatric patients to me. There may not even be an issue with fina, just some mentally ill people finding a scapegoat. Its mostly in their minds.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Shaolin, I'm not doubting your symptoms nor saying that finasteride cannot be the cause.

What I am saying is that the extrapolated assumptions are unwarranted and for reasons given above, probably wrong, that supposedly your rate of aromatization is now different and elevated estrogen and low DHT are causing your testicular problems.

Focusing on what is not the mechanism causing you pain at this time will be unproductive in finding the solution.

I don't know, very unfortunately, what is causing your pain now (beyond a surface explanation such as inflammation, which is likely but insufficient) but the estrogen and DHT explanations just have nothing to back them up and a great deal which indicates that these do not cause pain in the testicles.

Therefore what is needed is a doctor who is going to do differently than just blame these alleged causes while providing no treatment solution.

Bringing estradiol to low normal is simply a good thing to do and is a step towards optimizing hormone levels and so I recommend it, but it doesn't follow that the estrogen reduction alone is likely to cure you. So what I have to recommend is finding the right doctor -- the previous ones, regardless of credentials, have not been the right ones for you, as evidenced by their lack of success in correcting your problem and lack of actual evidence that either estradiol or DHT levels are causing your pain.

 

[Shaolin]

As a matter of fact my testo levels before fina where like in the 700 mg/dl. After fina they slowly came down to around 400 in a couple of years. I kept on measuring and i couldn't believe my eyes, nor could doctors understand that. Unfortunately during that time my estradiol levels where measured by labs that didn't do sensitive testing so they were running from 20-40 pg/ml. Then i was sent to a university hospital in belgium where they did more sensitive assays and found estrogen in the 55 pg/ml range and higher. Free estrogen they told me should be higher too but it would be very expensive to measure it.

Before fina i could have sex 3-4 times a day easily. After the drug i couldn't even ejaculate i felt extremely tired. Plus, never used steroids apart from fina, and i could still lift 130 kg bench press one time. I thnik i was pretty strong for my body and the fact that i could tolerate any sort of drugs without side effects up untill fina is an evidence to support that. If your organism/endocrine system and especially stress system is messed up or "weak" then you can't tolerate any sort of drugs, not even aspirin you get headaches, low temperature, nervousness and other crap like that. i ve seen that in the hospital several times with patients.

To the user "liftermo". I don't doubt that you have used fina and saw palmetto and saw no side effects. But did you at the same time use some testo boosters or was off and on in cycles?? Because if yet, i could easily conclude that your T levels where at times too high to be blocked by fina in the first place. One quite competent doc in belgium told me that using finasteride without testosterone is likely one of the biggest mistakes one can make. His name is Thierry Hertoghe what the fuck he is considered an endocrinologist expert in hormones and he is the president of anti-aging med society. He also uses finasteride but ONLY with testosterone otherwise he sais he gets very depressed and low libido issues. Anyways, to say that thousands of people, doctors, biologists athletes and so on are psychiatric patients that came out of everywhere suddenly to join in propeciahelp forum is rather faulty i suppose. Some of those people that used it and have side effects are famous athletes and doctors with many years of experience they don't qualify for psychiatric patients as you suppose they could.

Now, today, I am having problems with this examestane (aromasin) dosage. I am taking 12.5 mg per day for the last 3 days but failed to notice any improvement in my symptoms (testicular aches and shrinkage). In return i started having pains in my nipples too today!!!! WTF!!! Why would this happen?? I am taking an anti-aromatase and i get more pains in my testicles and new pains in my nipples that i never had. Should i be adding some dostinex to bring progesterone down too??


My original levels where 54 pg/ml of estradiol2 and very low androstanediol glucuronide 1.24 (with normal 3.5-21)

could i be needing a higher dose of aromasin ?? 25mg is one pill, i thought to start with half a pill to not make it so hard on my body.

My feeling is still that the rate of conversion to dht is so extremely low that even aromatase inhibition causes rebound rises in testosterone that bring dht up very little and estrogen back up again to a higher margin. I never had such pains in my nipples, how can they happen with the use of aromasin???

Should i increase the dose of aromasin to 25mg/day ??? or add some dostinex too?? I think this is a definate sign that this balance is fucked somehow and nothing more or less.

 

[liftermo]

I used those compunds saw palmetto and fina as a natural and as a steroid user. I used them for 10 years. It made no difference to me off cycle or on. You see there a more men out there that have not been affected than you guys that have (if you truely are affected which i doubt). Even so you are a tiny tiny minority and out of you guys i would guess most are suffering from other issues but scapegpoating fina, those that are left probably had weak hormone systems or something and were waiting to fall to hypogonadism. I dont doubt you were strong and big but 700 ng dl is not exactly a strongest of strong natural test level imo, i averaged 1200 ng dl natural. Thats what i mean, the guys with lower hormones will notice a drop more than the ones with a higher hormone level. Kinda like the survival of the fittest.

I know i have a robust endocrine system, i used roids for nearly a year non stop and within a month or two of PCT i was back rocking and rollin. Guys like me in the olden days would get to pass on their genes and have offspriing with all the women, lol.

I used fina contniously for 10 years dude and i was fine. But if you have issues, go speak to your doctor he will treat you i am sure.

 

[Shaolin]

Ok dude, thanks for responding but you are of no help here to me. I don't doubt that you may have fallen under the strongest and fittest of our species and your endocrine system is solid, but that doesn't change the status of the thousands of people affected. I don't think you can help me or anyone else with your comments. Thanks anyways though.

By the way, the doctors i am seeing are really trying to help but i need all the knowledge i can get. And hopefully some experienced ppl can help me somewhat in here.

 

[Shaolin]

Finasteride side effects / trying to control e2

I am having problems with this examestane (aromasin) dosage. I am taking 12.5 mg per day for the last 3 days but failed to notice any improvement in my post-finasteride symptoms (testicular aches and shrinkage). In return i started having pains in my nipples too today!!!! WTF!!! Why would this happen?? I am taking an anti-aromatase and i get more pains in my testicles and new pains in my nipples that i never had. Should i be adding some dostinex to bring progesterone down too??


My original levels post finasteride where 54 pg/ml of estradiol2 and very low androstanediol glucuronide 1.24 (with normal 3.5-21) and also slighlty higer progesterone than normal (1.4 ng/ml -range is 0-2-1.0)

could i be needing a higher dose of aromasin ?? 25mg is one pill, i thought to start with half a pill to not make it so hard on my body.

My feeling is still that the rate of conversion to dht is so extremely low that even aromatase inhibition causes rebound rises in testosterone that bring dht up very little and estrogen back up again to a higher margin. I never had such pains in my nipples, how can they happen with the use of aromasin???

Should i increase the dose of aromasin to 25mg/day ??? or add some dostinex too?? I think this is a definate sign that this balance is fucked somehow and nothing more or less.

 

[liftermo]

Okay, option 1 what you could have his inhibition of dht / 5ar. To boost it go on roids, heavy roids - big dosages, dht based stuff like anadrol, proviron, masteron etc. Then do thorough a pct and see where you are at. Then do it all again until you start to feel normal when off. Plus on cycle you should at least feel normal so if you fail to feel normal as a natural then yoou go on TRT - see john Crisler for it he has helped fina people, with high doses mind you, thats why i said use high doses when doing roid cycles at the very least you will gain some muscles if not some sexual function.

OR

option 2 just wait and see.


I dont think there will be any other options for you but you are better imo than those ssri sex people who suffer from PSSD. That shit is all about brain damage and they never feel normal even on TRT, with you there is hope with TRT.

 

[liftermo]

Re: Finasteride side effects / trying to control e2

clean the liver out, e2 issues are usually cos of the liver

 

[Shaolin]

Option 2 is what i did for many years and ended here in this wrecked state.

Option 1 is what i am left over with i presume. But anadrol i guess will be way too heavy on me. I think i am gonna loose the remaining of my testes before i manage to get on pct with that.
Could i be using H-drol instead to do the job and boost the enzyme?? Proviron and andractim i used but they have very short half lifes and problem is that they are also post 5-ar II activtiy, some say it may increase those enzyme levels but many have tried for months and none succeeded to do so. With H-drol one guy did the job apparently. And he also did his pct with Inhibit-E !!!

Well i guess you can fit under the smartest too when you want to- amazing how you reckoned one of the most potent solutions to this issue so readily..

P.S. by the way those SSRI ppl, because i did some summer work in psych clinics, they do get better its just about balancing neurotransmitters, boost noradrenaline or dopamine, yet not always but for many it works. And also T3 boosting helps. It all depends though

 

[Shaolin]

Re: Finasteride side effects / trying to control e2

You think?? Do some silymarine would help??

 

[liftermo]

You want heavy shit, no light weight shit is gonna cut it with you, you inhibited dht, now you must somehow resensitise it. The way you got to do that is by bombarding yoursefl with dht, kickstarting the body into realising it needs to do something. Anadrol is DHT based, i used it lots, its nothing. Just keep doing cycle after cycle of dht bases steroids couple with high doses of testosterone. You will atleast feel normal when on and then when you come off you may just remeber to carry that feeling through. Keep repeating it, amybe even do an extended cycle for a few months before hitting the PCT. You got no choice, you have this, or go on trt. If this fails you will go on trt anyway.

 

[Shaolin]

Could be right. Ain't doubting you.

You ve been doing that and got right back on track with regular pct you said?? But you couple it with Testosterone ester shots too correct?? Otherwise, on its own what would anadrol do??

 

[liftermo]

I was on a cycle for a year and came off no issues. Dont sweat it.

Just use anadrol for dht, or use masteron, or use proviron but the stronger the better. Then all you do is add testosterone as the base to cover testosterone deficeincy and you need test as it also converts to dht remember so you want some of that in so your body so it feels natural and your body is able to try and do what it should do, but you shoot heavy doses to shock the body, you are then also boosting the dht with the other steroids. This is something that i feel crisler has missed, he has his guys on high dose test, far higher than normal TRT but i think he has to go that high due to getting the DHT high enough. Why not just add crazy amounts of DHT on top of the test. Thats why I say you couple it up. But hit them both heavy and hard. You guys got some issues with dht, some form of sensitivity and this is all i can think off that will help kickstart and shock the body into action. Just using logic on my part.

 

[KBD]

You want heavy shit, no light weight shit is gonna cut it with you, you inhibited dht, now you must somehow resensitise it. The way you got to do that is by bombarding yoursefl with dht, kickstarting the body into realising it needs to do something. Anadrol is DHT based, i used it lots, its nothing

Are You MODS READING THIS SHIT???

 

[KBD]

I was on a cycle for a year and came off no issues. Dont sweat it.

Just use anadrol for dht, or use masteron, or use proviron but the stronger the better. Then all you do is add testosterone as the base to cover testosterone deficeincy and you need test as it also converts to dht remember so you want some of that in so your body so it feels natural and your body is able to try and do what it should do, but you shoot heavy doses to shock the body, you are then also boosting the dht with the other steroids. This is something that i feel crisler has missed, he has his guys on high dose test, far higher than normal TRT but i think he has to go that high due to getting the DHT high enough. Why not just add crazy amounts of DHT on top of the test. Thats why I say you couple it up. But hit them both heavy and hard. You guys got some issues with dht, some form of sensitivity and this is all i can think off that will help kickstart and shock the body into action. Just using logic on my part.

Thats the funniest most ignorant uneducated logic ive ever heard...

You guys gotta read this shit, your gonna get a kick outa this.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Thats the funniest most ignorant uneducated logic ive ever heard...

You guys gotta read this shit, your gonna get a kick outa this.

Ignorance and stupidity are not prohibitions/requirements for posting. While I agree, try not to flame but object calmly. Without a doubt, anyone that states they did AAS for a year without any adverse effects upon stopping is not to be listened to.