HCG timing and dosing for shut down recovery....logic behind it all ??

[Madball99]

What's the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day....I mean what's the logic or science behind all the different timings ?? Shouldn't HCG timing mimic the bodies natural pulsing of LH. What is that exactly ? Where do all you guys get the timing from ? Articles, studies, friends at the gym ??

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. ...Other say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time...Isn't that a bit much ?


What about the length of time ? I hear 2 clinics suggest 10 days....other say 3-5 weeks....Where does all this come from and who's right ? Help me here guys...Anyone have any hard info here ?

 

[mxim]

you are absolutely right,there are many different opinions onm how to use hcg. i've used it on and off for years and can tell you that 250-300 iu twice a week with testosterone works very well. doing it alone,250-300 iu every other day works well. some say 100 iu per day can be used also.the truth is,higher doaseg can desensitize the tesates and that is something you do not want. as far as the time of day is concerned,it really did'nt matter to me but i have heard of guys using it at night as that is when natural LH is released the most. for me,i prefer doing it during the day as it gives me a boost of energy.

 

[pcgizzmo]

Mxim,


I am with Madball99 on the dosage thing. How is dosage regulated?

You stated 250-300 IU w/T is good but, then 250 - 300 iu every other day or 100 every day. I guess my questions would be-

1. What is your level on T before the 250-300 iu. and how much T were you using?

2. If dosing 250-300 EOD what would your levels look like?

3. How about the levels at 100 ED?

4. How much is to much to desensitize? Is it total dose at once or total dose over a period of time?

Thanks....

Paul

 

[pmgamer18]

Mxim,


I am with Madball99 on the dosage thing. How is dosage regulated?

You stated 250-300 IU w/T is good but, then 250 - 300 iu every other day or 100 every day. I guess my questions would be-

1. What is your level on T before the 250-300 iu. and how much T were you using?

2. If dosing 250-300 EOD what would your levels look like?

3. How about the levels at 100 ED?

4. How much is to much to desensitize? Is it total dose at once or total dose over a period of time?

Thanks....

Paul

My levels on doing 150 mgs. of Depo T shots everyweek were 650 range 262 to 1598. As you can see this is to dam low for the range. Adding 500 IU's of HCG 3 x's a week after the 15th shot my levels dam near doubled to 1087.
One way to tell if your doing to much HCG is to check Prggesterone. Do a test on it before you start HCG and about 8 weeks later do a test on it.

I have changed my does to keep E2 Estradiol down I was doing 1mg. of Arimidex a day this is a lot. So now I do my T shots every 3 days 64 mgs. and was doing 100 IU's of HCG everyday. But the day before my next shot I felt down. After talking to 1cc he said one of Dr. John's men is doing shots every 3 days and was told to do 250 IU's the day before his T shot so now I am doing this. So far it is working dam good and my E2 is still good on .5mgs of HCG the day of my T shot. My test doing the HCG everyday was 900.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for 2 reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to push the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)
Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

Peace

Mike

 

[pmgamer18]

hCG while on TRT is used for 2 reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation. [/FONT]

I feel you missed one here HCG also most men on TRT have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG you take will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous testosterone. So yes this will support testicular size.

But also that HPTA-suppressed ( as all TRT patients are to some extent ) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefoer restores a more natural balance of our hormones.

Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life issues.

Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors ( including those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated.

The above was a reply to a post of mine to help get my Dr. to give me HCG from Dr. John.

My Dr. felt that my being primary adding HCG will do nothing. After reading the above my Dr. put me on HCG and my levels went from 650 doing a shot of 150 mgs. of Depo T every week to 1087 range 262 to 1598. This has made me feel the best I ever felt in all the 22 yrs. that I have been on TRT.

Before this I was house bound in a lot of pain in my joints and muscles. Now after a yr. doing this I have lost over 65 lbs and now at 62 get out and walk everday and go to the gym and work out 3 days a week. Hell this time last yr I felt like I need a walker to walk.

 

[hackskii]

I can tell you that 500iu's of HCG a day for 16 days to restore testicular atorphy did not work.
I took a shot of 2500 iu as recomended by Mike and in just one shot I got more size in my testicles than all 16 days of 500iu a day put together.

I am lost too, but it is working so well I wont stop and I will follow what mike put me on as I have much optomism now.
Before I was stressed out not being able to recover and this was making me worry big time.
I dont want to be on TRT forever.

I am super optomistic I will have complete recovery right now.
My face is greasy (always was before TRT), I get morning wood, I feel super and the size of my balls are pretty huge.

I feel looking back now that 500iu was not enough to get my atrophy in order and this protocol I am on now is working awesome.
This is the best I have felt in over a year.

Thanks a million Mike, I am very greatfull, you helped me big time.

 

[MANWHORE]

I can tell you that 500iu's of HCG a day for 16 days to restore testicular atorphy did not work.
I took a shot of 2500 iu as recomended by Mike and in just one shot I got more size in my testicles than all 16 days of 500iu a day put together.

I am lost too, but it is working so well I wont stop and I will follow what mike put me on as I have much optomism now.
Before I was stressed out not being able to recover and this was making me worry big time.
I dont want to be on TRT forever.

I am super optomistic I will have complete recovery right now.
My face is greasy (always was before TRT), I get morning wood, I feel super and the size of my balls are pretty huge.

I feel looking back now that 500iu was not enough to get my atrophy in order and this protocol I am on now is working awesome.
This is the best I have felt in over a year.

Thanks a million Mike, I am very greatfull, you helped me big time.

Was it you?? Nah couldn't have been

 

[hackskii]

Was it you?? Nah couldn't have been

Yah mate it was me, I am a big man and I am admitting you were right and I was wrong.

 

[The_Skeptic]

I can tell you that 500iu's of HCG a day for 16 days to restore testicular atorphy did not work.
I took a shot of 2500 iu as recomended by Mike and in just one shot I got more size in my testicles than all 16 days of 500iu a day put together.

I am lost too, but it is working so well I wont stop and I will follow what mike put me on as I have much optomism now.
Before I was stressed out not being able to recover and this was making me worry big time.
I dont want to be on TRT forever.

I am super optomistic I will have complete recovery right now.
My face is greasy (always was before TRT), I get morning wood, I feel super and the size of my balls are pretty huge.

I feel looking back now that 500iu was not enough to get my atrophy in order and this protocol I am on now is working awesome.
This is the best I have felt in over a year.

Thanks a million Mike, I am very greatfull, you helped me big time.

So often how are you shooting 2,500 IUs? What brand are you using?

 

[Madball99]

Wow, great responses from Dr. Scally and everyone else. Thanks guys.

 

[MANWHORE]

Yah mate it was me, I am a big man and I am admitting you were right and I was wrong.

I didn't even know i was right so save it ... I will tell you that the high dose HCG got me going good but i am tired as a mother lately .. I am wondering if the HCG wore off and i have no nat test production going .. Well i am back on Tren/EQ as of 2 days ago so that will stop .. I know i will be talking to Deacon in the future for a major PCT protocol .. BTW didn't like that comment about me not looking so good after 1,000 Tren cycles .. I just read it ... I only started doing crazy shit like this about 1yr ago as i only did about 4 cycles in my past .. My protein intake sucks but excuses are just excuses so i'll up my protein and make more effort to be a better excuse for a BBer ... I have alot on my mind lately and alot of work ahead of me but thanks for the kind reply .. I appreciate it ..

 

[Madball99]

2500units EOD of HCG gets expensive no ?

 

[MANWHORE]

2500units EOD of HCG gets expensive no ?

Not when you have a friend that pays $1 a script for 10,000 IUs ... I traded him for $30 worth of gear

 

[3xKrazy]

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

Peace

Mike

Ok, do I have this right (and could you possibly fill in the blanks for what I don't have)....for someone recovering from ASIH you use a protocol of:

-HCG alone, 2200iu EOD....for how many weeks?
-upon conclusion of HCG, clomiphene @50mg 2x/day for 15 days
-nolvadex @?mg for 30 days
-retest

Do I have that right?

Thanks

edit: also, is this a protocol that you would use in either of the following situations: cessation of an AAS cycle (traditional PCT) and a patient that youre trying to resume HPTA function whose been misappropriately been treated with TRT for however long?

 

[Millard]

Not when you have a friend that pays $1 a script for 10,000 IUs ... I traded him for $30 worth of gear

FYI, be careful - this discussion is heading off-topic and outside the scope of the men's health forum.

Let's keep this type of stuff in the "anabolics" forum and reserve the "men's health" forum for medical issues.

 

[Millard]

Ok, do I have this right (and could you possibly fill in the blanks for what I don't have)....for someone recovering from ASIH you use a protocol of:

-HCG alone, 2200iu EOD

This isn't 2200 IUs. It is 22:00 or 10:00 PM for time of day for HCG.

 

[MANWHORE]

FYI, be careful - this discussion is heading off-topic and outside the scope of the men's health forum.

Let's keep this type of stuff in the "anabolics" forum and reserve the "men's health" forum for medical issues.

Sorry about that .. just erase my post anytime you feel the need because sometimes i forget where i am ... I just look at new posts sometimes so sorry

 

[3xKrazy]

This isn't 2200 IUs. It is 22:00 or 10:00 PM for time of day for HCG.

ah. I'm dumb, lol.

I knew something was odd about that #.

 

[1cc]

I took a shot of 2500 iu as recomended by Mike

I did not see this recommended anywhere.