MESO-Rx Exclusive Bill Roberts 2 on 4 off cycle update

[spiderduncan]

Mr. Roberts,

I understand your recommendations for Clomid (day 1 - 300mg in divided doses followed by 50mg per day), Nolva (day 1 - 120mg in divided doses followed by 20mg per day) and their combination (1/2 of each recommended above).

However, what do you recommend for Toremifene (1st day and thereafter)?
Thanks.

An Integrated Steroid, Training, and Nutrition Program

There has been considerable interest from readers in the brief alternating cycle concept that I have previously discussed. Here, I give an example of an

thinksteroids.com

How Has Your Two-Week Steroid Cycle Protocol Changed?

Question: Mr Roberts, I've been reading for the last several years to learn about anabolic steroids, because I definitely plan to use them someday.

thinksteroids.com

 

[jaytaylor84]

Hi Bill I've been reading about AAS and lifting for some time now and have been interested in your 2 on 4 off protocol.. more importantly 2 on 2 off (being a little bit more aggressive here). Could you possibly critique it and tell me if it looks up too par for someone who will be using it as their first cycle? I understand you advocate large doses of fast acting/clearing AAS but would the single use of prop be effective enough? I've also read that using an AI will increase my Test levels, wouldn't the same hold true on cycle and be a win-win as far as suppressing estrogenic sides/raising test? I've heard that PCT sometimes isn't even necessary on these 2 weekers so would 1 week of PCT suffice?

1-14 75mg Test Prop shot ED
1- 14 Aromasin 10mg ED

PCT
Toremifene
days 15-22(1 week after) 160/90/90/90/60/60/60

 

[Realgains]

Hi Bill I've been reading about AAS and lifting for some time now and have been interested in your 2 on 4 off protocol.. more importantly 2 on 2 off (being a little bit more aggressive here). Could you possibly critique it and tell me if it looks up too par for someone who will be using it as their first cycle? I understand you advocate large doses of fast acting/clearing AAS but would the single use of prop be effective enough? I've also read that using an AI will increase my Test levels, wouldn't the same hold true on cycle and be a win-win as far as suppressing estrogenic sides/raising test? I've heard that PCT sometimes isn't even necessary on these 2 weekers so would 1 week of PCT suffice?

1-14 75mg Test Prop shot ED
1- 14 Aromasin 10mg ED

PCT
Toremifene
days 15-22(1 week after) 160/90/90/90/60/60/60

Not Bill but I can say your cycle is flawed bro.

You need to front load all injectables like prop and tren(not T suspension)
This gets T and or tren levels up fast and the faster the better...you only have 2 weeks.

Do this.....Prop 200mg on day one and then 100mg a day for 10 days and then stop. You need to add an oral to this , at least at day 11 through 14. I'd do 50 of dbol a day in divided dose from day one, and at least from days 11 through 14.
I'd also add tren at 150mg of day one and then 75-100mg per day for 10 days, if you can get it, and then stop.
You should use letrozole....way way better than Aromasin. Do letro at 1.25mg per day and start a few days BEFORE the cycle. Continue with the letro for PCT but drop it to .5-.75mg per day.

Estrogen levels will be LOW on day 15/16 so a SERM or AI does nothing to help restore normal T levels. T will come back fast on it's own due to the short cycle length. Use the AI and or SERM do make T climb HIGHER than normal AFTER T production returns to normal. This will help you keep the gains. So do the SERM and or the AI. Continue to train hard, eat well and sleep well. Stay on the SERM and or letro for a few weeks and then stop.
T levels will then slowly drop back to what your body thinks is normal for you and for most men that's 400-650ng/dl.

You can stay on a very low dose of letro for continued great T levels, well above your own personal normal. ie: .10- .25mg per day. I have a great sex drive with letro at .25mg and a high T but if I go higher than that in dose my sex drive drops.

If you stay on a low dose of letro for months please get a lipid profile done. You need to keep an eye on hdl, ldl and total cholesterol. If you estrogen level is too low your lipid profile change for the negative.

Training......three way split. Do three days "on", one day "off" and then repeat. This hits each muscle group directly once every 5th day. Squat really hard.
DO NOT continue with this schedule after the cycle...it's too much for a guy not on gear! Drop it to a three way split training every other day at most and some guys need to drop to a three way split training only Monday-Wednesday-Friday.

I do not recommend more than four 2 "on" 2 "off" cycles back to back before taking at least a month off.

My .02

RG

 

[Realgains]

I would just like to add that if you want to do two weekers you really need to hit them hard, heavy and fast. Do not be afraid of doing larger doses than you would for a longer cycle. Do not be afraid to use the strongest gear too ie: staples are dbol, tren, test prop, anadrol.

You're only "on" for two weeks! You will not get any sides except a little acne(maybe) and a messed up lipid profile. The lipid profile is no worse on a two weeker than on a 10 weeker but since you only have this crappy lipd profile for a few weeks it's no big deal, PROVIDED that you don't smoke and don't already have a crappy lipid profile.
Also, T rebounds very rapidly post cycle. They is literally NO CHANCE of androgen induced hypogonadism unless you do repeated 2 weekers with only 2 weeks off.
RG

 

[jaytaylor84]

Great advice RG, but im limited to prop,aromasin, and toremifene .. pm sent!

 

[Bill Roberts]

It is true that PCT can be omitted on the 2 week cycles but in particular when doing them back to back with only 2 weeks off, SERM use in the off weeks can make a difference in preventing cumulative testicular atrophy.

I've never made any kind of measurement to check what Realgains is saying about speed of recovery in the first few days of recovery when estradiol is low due to aromatase use or other aspects of the cycle, but it makes sense.

Basically as I see it, through most of the off weeks in the 2 week cycle plan, the SERM use is not merely to recover testosterone levels, which may already be recovered, but ideally to provide a period of somewhat-increased LH production so that area-under-the-curve (averaged over the whole cycle) testicular production stays fairly normal or is even enhanced.

When doing it as 2 on / 4 off with the off weeks all having Clomid, some increase in testicular size can sometimes be noted. Not that that's necessary, but it speaks to the feasibility of obtaining a balance, so to speak, between some weeks of lower LH production and some of higher production. Besides that, the extra T in the off weeks can't hurt.

That said, for the brief cycles I now don't prefer more than 2 weeks of Clomid use post-cycle on a belief that excess -- beyond what is particularly productive -- use of the drug should be avoided.

 

[The Dutchman]

Not meaning to disrupt the topic, but hoping to add usefull content;

Would there be a place for the use of DAA (since it increases the production and release of LH) post cycle? If so, what would be a sensible protocol?

 

[Bill Roberts]

It can't hurt and might help as an addition, instead of a substitute (not that you were suggesting it be used as a substitute for anything else.)

It's not clear yet whether there is any difference from taking DAA in divided doses or one single dose per day. My guess would be that it doesn't matter, or matters little. Three grams per day in eugonadal men gives some benefit; I don't know what benefit there may be from smaller or larger amounts. Three grams per day seems a reasonable amount if wanting to try it.

One thing to watch out for is that as L-aspartic acid is even cheaper than D-aspartic acid and optical rotation is often not tested for, not all stuff labeled as D-aspartic acid is in fact the D form. Some has tested as being the L form. As always, for the consumer it's hard to verify any of these things... the only practical plan really is to go with companies that for whatever reason seem more reputable rather than necessarily going for the very cheapest Internet price that can be found.

 

[The Dutchman]

Once again thanks for your quick and detailed reply.

Kind regards

 

[Bill Roberts]

And thank you!

 

[leoclaw79]

So i bought a 10 mL vian that contains 100 mg test prop /50mg tren ace / 50 mg masteron per mL. My proposed cycle is the following:
Day 1: 200 mg test prop/ 100 mg tren ace/ 100 mg masteron (2 mL)
Day 2: 100/50/50 (1 mL)
Days 2-12: 70/35/35 ED (.7 mL/day until vial is finished)
This will be my first time using injections so i have a few questions...
Will this amount of masteron significantly keep estrogenic effects down?
A few weeks ago i did my first 2 week cycle of 50 mg dianabol ED and loved it...minus the bloating lol. To what degree does test prop aromatize compared to dbol?

And will this hurt like crazy because it is 200 mL of short acting esters (that would need benzyl alcohol to increase solubility?

I am also open to any other suggestions as to how else i could optimally use just that vial in 2 weeks as well as any other critique (especially from bill roberts).
Thanks guys!

 

[The Dutchman]

And thank you!

I don't seem to be able to find good info on the rotated form of DAA you mentioned in the earlier post. Could you provide me some reference? Thanks in advance.

 

[leoclaw79]

In my question about the injection pain i meant to say 200 mg per mL of short estered androgen in case that was confusing

 

[Millard]

Good question to ask here. Bill Roberts (obviously) and Real Gains have more experience than anyone in the world using the "two-week" cycle protocol. opcorn:

An Integrated Steroid, Training, and Nutrition Program

How Has Your Two-Week Steroid Cycle Protocol Changed?

 

[Realgains]

So i bought a 10 mL vian that contains 100 mg test prop /50mg tren ace / 50 mg masteron per mL. My proposed cycle is the following:
Day 1: 200 mg test prop/ 100 mg tren ace/ 100 mg masteron (2 mL)
Day 2: 100/50/50 (1 mL)
Days 2-12: 70/35/35 ED (.7 mL/day until vial is finished)
This will be my first time using injections so i have a few questions...
Will this amount of masteron significantly keep estrogenic effects down?
A few weeks ago i did my first 2 week cycle of 50 mg dianabol ED and loved it...minus the bloating lol. To what degree does test prop aromatize compared to dbol?

And will this hurt like crazy because it is 200 mL of short acting esters (that would need benzyl alcohol to increase solubility?

I am also open to any other suggestions as to how else i could optimally use just that vial in 2 weeks as well as any other critique (especially from bill roberts).
Thanks guys!

IF one vial is all you have then dose it to run out on day 10. The day one dose you suggested is fine. However, is the Masteron in the prop ester. If it is then it's fine to use for a two weeker. Add dbol to your cycle for sure!

Masteron is a weak anti e.... If using stuff like test and dbol is decent doses it isn't going to offer enough anti e help.

If you are going to do two weekers you need to really take full advantage of the 14 days. Do not be concerned about sides....sides take TIME to develop. In two weeks you are not going to loose hair(if you have that genetic tendency), you're not going to mess up your prostate, you're not going to get much acne. Yeah, you're good cholesterol(hdl) will be crap but it rebounds fast after you stop.
The clomid and nolva will give you acne though lol

This means at least moderately large doses of powerful fast acting fast clearing gear, and you need to stop the prop ester injectables at day 10 or 11, depending on the dose. You need to take advantage of days 10 through 14 too, and that means either test suspension or an oral.

Testosterone in any ester aromatizes as healthy as dbol.....it's all dose dependent regarding the water retention/bloat you get.

Masteron needs to be taken in large doses....I'm taking at least 600mg a week and a gram is better. At good doses it's a very good anabolic. I don't think Masteron is the best choice for a two weeker unless you take a large dose. Tren is a better choice.
NOTE: Most guys get some insomnia on tren and it happens fast.

Doing tren/mast and test prop is a hell of a lot of injection volume per day....not a good idea unless you are really good at using all the upper/outer glutes/hip and lateral thigh.

This is my recommendation to you.

Use the vial up.
Day one as you said.
Dose it so that you run out after day 11's shot.
Dbol!!!! 50 mg per day through day 14. On workout days do half the dbol 2 hours before training and then the other half spread out throughout the rest of the day. On non workout days divide the dose up evenly throughout the day.

Letro...at least .5mg per day and start a few days before the cycle starts.

PCT...continue with the letro. Clomid 100mg on day one or nolva 40 on day one is likely enough but you could front load more. Then 50 of clomid a day or 20 of nolva. I like letrozole A LOT as I hate high estrogen levels. In my opinion and from my experience and the experience of guys I train, letro is actually better for PCT than any SERM. Watch the dose...the stuff is strong shit. When off cycle .5mg/day is plenty.

Estrogen levels will be low by day 16(as will androgen levels) so a SERM or AI really has no affect on stimulating GnRH release from the hypothalamus and thus no affect on LH release from the pituitary. As an aside... Most guys don't understand this and it's why they get into trouble after long cycle. BY FAR the most important thing in regards to test recovery post traditional cycle is to prevent or at least minimize testicular shrinkage with HCG at 250iu's every other day.

What happens is that T rebounds quickly in a 2 weeker because the pituitary is not inhibited. So LH starts to pulse up right very quickly. The testes have not shrunk (ok a tiny bit) so they start producing good amounts of T again. NOW the letro and or SERM(Clomid or Nolva for example) start to have an impact AFTER T production starts to approach your normal level, which for most guys is around 450-600ng/dl.

Stay on the SERM and or letro for a couple weeks. This actually makes your T go quite a bit higher than normal. and it could peak out at 1200ng/dl or more. LH is higher than normal while in the two weeks "on" it was pretty hammered down. So, over a 4 week period you would have put out a normal monthly total for LH, and I think that's a good idea. WHY, because even though you cannot see any testicular shrinkage I am sure a little does take place in the two weeks "on". The higher T also helps you keep you gains, Then stop the SERM and or letro and your T level will slowly drop back to YOUR normal.


More examples of good 2 weekers.

Masteron prop 300mg day one and then 150 day. Stop after day 10
dbol as above
Letro as above
PCT as above.

KILLER GOOD! Maybe best Eva(NY accent).... yeah you'll get some drol bloat and there is nothing you can do about that.
Anadrol 100mg a day in two doses for 14 days
Tren ace 150mg day one front load then 100mg/day for 10 days.
No letro
PCT as above

KILLER #2 Super good too.
Test prop 300mg day one then 150mg and stop after day 10
Tren ace as above
dbol as above
Letro 1.25mg per day
PCT as above

Decent two weeker...dbol only at 50mg/day(letro used) and a little better yet, anadrol only at 100mg/day(no letro).


TRAINING
I strongly believe in increasing the number of times that a muscle group is hit directly in this two week period. You CANNOT do this in a long cycle without recovery problems! You certainly cannot do it while off gear!!!

Three way split.
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday....Thursday off....Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Monday off...rotating like this. That hits each muscle group directly once every 4th day. Keep all pushing exercises on one day and all pulling on another and legs on the last day. Can take one more day off somewhere in the mix if you need to. That would hit each muscle group directly once every 5th day.
If you don't keep pushing work on one day and all pulling work on another then you'll end up working the tri's and bi's and shoulders more than once every 4-5 days and that's too much.

High intensity low to lowish volume. Deadllifts and or full squats are mandatory for overall body gains and obviously for legs and back. STRICT form in everything. Intensifiers like forced reps , rest pause reps, some cheat reps after getting at least 5 perfect reps.(not cheating on the squats and dead or course) No touch and go deads...re-set for each rep!

DIET 200mg/day of protein is more than enough.
Carbs...lots
Fats....next to no saturated fat....lots of omega 3 and 6 fats.

Sleep...lots...a daily 30 minute nap is great too. Good luck sleeping on the tren lol.

Off cycle....Three way Split training every other day at MOST. Many will need to drop to just Monday-Wednesday-Friday and hard gainers need to do a two way split training only 2 days a week, with perhaps ancillary exercises on a couple other days ie: abbs/forearms


Two weekers....GO BIG or don't bother!

RG

 

[leoclaw79]

Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, ibdont have access to any AIs...only SERMs. Would oral winstrol be a good choice to add to this at like 40 mg a day for the whole 2 weeks? Or at least after day 11?

 

[Demondosage]

a 2wk cycle? Seems like a waste to me. Unless you've read up on something I have never read before, I've never heard of guys only cycling for a 2wk time frame

 

[Demondosage]

Realgains, good read brother. Now you have me interested, how long are you taking off between these 2 wk cycles? You hit it really hard for 2 wks and then recovery, but when do you jump back on again?

 

[Bill Roberts]

Is the Masteron the usual enanthate ester, or is it the propionate ester in this version?

The propionate would make more sense for this combination, so it might be that.

?

 

[Realgains]

Realgains, good read brother. Now you have me interested, how long are you taking off between these 2 wk cycles? You hit it really hard for 2 wks and then recovery, but when do you jump back on again?

I got the idea from Bill Roberts years ago. He takes the credit! He has a documented case study that you can google.

Usually you take 4 weeks off. However, you can do 2 weeks off ,and about 4 such cycles before you may have to start to perhaps worry about cumulative testicular atrophy. You could use HCG at 250iu's every other day during the cycles to help minimize this. I bet you could then cycle like this all year long.

However, the reasons to do the 2 weekers is to get "some" benefit from steroid use, above natural training, AND avoid the sides ,and especially long term shitty good cholesterol(hdl). This is by far the worst side of steroid use and you cannot "see" it or feel it. This is why so many long term bodybuilders, power lifters and pro wrestlers get heart disease in their 40 and 50's and some in their 30's! Arterial plaque builds up over YEARS and you don't get any symptoms at all until it's pretty significant. If you have a "history" in your family and or smoke and or have a diet high in cholesterol and saturated fat you should never do roids.

If you did 2 weeks "on" two weeks "off" all year you're gunna have a shitty hdl all year.

I have a lot of guys doing two weeks "on" 4 weeks "off". Some guys do 1-2 of these short cycles a year and some do them steady all year....and they are BIG guys and get results....HOWEVER, they know how to train without steroids and 99% of steroid users have no clue in this regard....BIG difference.

Training without gear requires FEW days in the gym per week, focusing almost completely on the big basic compound movements. If you don't squat PROPERLY(deep), and or dead lift, or at the least do deep leg presses AND dead lifts, it's a sure sign that you don't know anything about steroid free training. Also, intensity has to be very high and with low volume. Also, you have to micro-load ,and hardly anyone knows what that is...its using small and then TINY additions to the weight stacks/bars weeklyor at least biweekly as the going gets really hard. I'm taking even 2 pounds a week on the squat for reps! Long training cycles(months) with micro-loading. Then when you cannot manage to get any weight increases at all for a few weeks you further reduce volume...then when weight progression stops you take a 7-10 day lay off....you then come back with about 85-90% of your previous bests for reps and slowly work up to and past your previous bests.

An average sized guy of say 5'10" should easily be able to get to 200 pounds LEAN with no gear at all. That's a pretty big guy really.

RG