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Anabolic Steroids
MESO-Rx Exclusive Bill Roberts 2 on 4 off cycle update
- Thread starter spiderduncan
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Any time D-aspartic acid is referred to in the scientific literature, it is this D form.
Optical rotation is a property of many natural substances such as amino acids. It can't be seen by the human eye, but as light passed through a water solution of an amino acid, its plane of polarization will rotate.
Almost all naturally-occurring amino acids rotate light "left", or L. So this is why amino acids have names such as L-carnitine, L-leucine, etc.
There are also some molecules that don't: for example taurine does not rotate light. It's true that some supplement companies call it "L-taurine" but it's not! It's just plain taurine.
There is L-aspartic acid. If you just buy aspartic acid from a company that sells individual amino acids, it will be the L-form.
However, the D-form also exists (it rotates light to the right.) Only the D form of aspartic acid has the testosterone increasing properties.
So, everything you find on DAA is this D form.
I got the idea from Bill Roberts years ago. He takes the credit! He has a documented case study that you can google.
Usually you take 4 weeks off. However, you can do 2 weeks off ,and about 4 such cycles before you may have to start to perhaps worry about cumulative testicular atrophy. You could use HCG at 250iu's every other day during the cycles to help minimize this. I bet you could then cycle like this all year long.
However, the reasons to do the 2 weekers is to get "some" benefit from steroid use, above natural training, AND avoid the sides ,and especially long term shitty good cholesterol(hdl). This is by far the worst side of steroid use and you cannot "see" it or feel it. This is why so many long term bodybuilders, power lifters and pro wrestlers get heart disease in their 40 and 50's and some in their 30's! Arterial plaque builds up over YEARS and you don't get any symptoms at all until it's pretty significant. If you have a "history" in your family and or smoke and or have a diet high in cholesterol and saturated fat you should never do roids.
If you did 2 weeks "on" two weeks "off" all year you're gunna have a shitty hdl all year.
I have a lot of guys doing two weeks "on" 4 weeks "off". Some guys do 1-2 of these short cycles a year and some do them steady all year....and they are BIG guys and get results....HOWEVER, they know how to train without steroids and 99% of steroid users have no clue in this regard....BIG difference.
Training without gear requires FEW days in the gym per week, focusing almost completely on the big basic compound movements. If you don't squat PROPERLY(deep), and or dead lift, or at the least do deep leg presses AND dead lifts, it's a sure sign that you don't know anything about steroid free training. Also, intensity has to be very high and with low volume. Also, you have to micro-load ,and hardly anyone knows what that is...its using small and then TINY additions to the weight stacks/bars weeklyor at least biweekly as the going gets really hard. I'm taking even 2 pounds a week on the squat for reps! Long training cycles(months) with micro-loading. Then when you cannot manage to get any weight increases at all for a few weeks you further reduce volume...then when weight progression stops you take a 7-10 day lay off....you then come back with about 85-90% of your previous bests for reps and slowly work up to and past your previous bests.
An average sized guy of say 5'10" should easily be able to get to 200 pounds LEAN with no gear at all. That's a pretty big guy really.
RG
Thanks, not too worried about testicular atrophy as I take 250 iu HCG shots twice/wkly on a reg basis now since I'm on HRT. I really like this idea on cycling though. It actually sounds very similar to Dan Duchaines theory on letting the body adapt to high mg's of gear, even if for brief time frames. He believed that even if the body was only exposed to those high dosages briefly, it adapted and changed long term. I'm going to ramp up my primo to 1000mg's/wk and my anavar to 100mg's/day for next 3 wks, and end the cycle early, already been on about 6 wks now. I think I'll benefit from exposing myself to that higher dosage and then taking some time off and maybe trying this method of cycling. This isnt a here and there thing for me anymore, I'm on something all the time, but if I can be safer in terms of side effects then its worth it
Ah, yes you did! I have to admit skimming quickly and missing!
Yes its masteron propanoate... And i'll probably be taking between 3 and 6 weeks between each of my 2 weekers as i am in no particular hurry and to be honest i'm probably not very close to my natural potential not to mention being a broke college student haha. Just lookimg for some extra excitement in my training. Im doing a 6 week program called HP mass from tnation so i was going to start the cycle in my last week of it which has crazy high volume of 3 rep sets and the next week i'll be doing lower volume and more intensity for extra strength
Yeah, that makes sense to me.... then try the 2 weekers with highish to high doses of powerful gear ...fast acting/clearing only. Try the 2 "on" 4 "off" and in the off time do what I mentioned for training. If you don't like that then do 2-3 weeks off.
RG
Last edited:
The Dutchman
New Member
Thanks once again! I'm curious how -on a customer level- we can determine if we bought the right stuff then. I'll browse for some answers to that question, instead of contaminating this topic with left or right rotating amino's.
RG.... its a blend so it's not going to be too much volume per injection but since this is 200 mg of short esters per mL, is there a chance that more BA would have been added to the oil solution? And if so would this lead to increased pain of injection? I'm not too worried but should I be as I am not used to it?IF one vial is all you have then dose it to run out on day 10. The day one dose you suggested is fine. However, is the Masteron in the prop ester. If it is then it's fine to use for a two weeker. Add dbol to your cycle for sure!
Masteron is a weak anti e.... If using stuff like test and dbol is decent doses it isn't going to offer enough anti e help.
If you are going to do two weekers you need to really take full advantage of the 14 days. Do not be concerned about sides....sides take TIME to develop. In two weeks you are not going to loose hair(if you have that genetic tendency), you're not going to mess up your prostate, you're not going to get much acne. Yeah, you're good cholesterol(hdl) will be crap but it rebounds fast after you stop.
The clomid and nolva will give you acne though lol
This means at least moderately large doses of powerful fast acting fast clearing gear, and you need to stop the prop ester injectables at day 10 or 11, depending on the dose. You need to take advantage of days 10 through 14 too, and that means either test suspension or an oral.
Testosterone in any ester aromatizes as healthy as dbol.....it's all dose dependent regarding the water retention/bloat you get.
Masteron needs to be taken in large doses....I'm taking at least 600mg a week and a gram is better. At good doses it's a very good anabolic. I don't think Masteron is the best choice for a two weeker unless you take a large dose. Tren is a better choice.
NOTE: Most guys get some insomnia on tren and it happens fast.
Doing tren/mast and test prop is a hell of a lot of injection volume per day....not a good idea unless you are really good at using all the upper/outer glutes/hip and lateral thigh.
This is my recommendation to you.
Use the vial up.
Day one as you said.
Dose it so that you run out after day 11's shot.
Dbol!!!! 50 mg per day through day 14. On workout days do half the dbol 2 hours before training and then the other half spread out throughout the rest of the day. On non workout days divide the dose up evenly throughout the day.
Letro...at least .5mg per day and start a few days before the cycle starts.
PCT...continue with the letro. Clomid 100mg on day one or nolva 40 on day one is likely enough but you could front load more. Then 50 of clomid a day or 20 of nolva. I like letrozole A LOT as I hate high estrogen levels. In my opinion and from my experience and the experience of guys I train, letro is actually better for PCT than any SERM. Watch the dose...the stuff is strong shit. When off cycle .5mg/day is plenty.
Estrogen levels will be low by day 16(as will androgen levels) so a SERM or AI really has no affect on stimulating GnRH release from the hypothalamus and thus no affect on LH release from the pituitary. As an aside... Most guys don't understand this and it's why they get into trouble after long cycle. BY FAR the most important thing in regards to test recovery post traditional cycle is to prevent or at least minimize testicular shrinkage with HCG at 250iu's every other day.
What happens is that T rebounds quickly in a 2 weeker because the pituitary is not inhibited. So LH starts to pulse up right very quickly. The testes have not shrunk (ok a tiny bit) so they start producing good amounts of T again. NOW the letro and or SERM(Clomid or Nolva for example) start to have an impact AFTER T production starts to approach your normal level, which for most guys is around 450-600ng/dl.
Stay on the SERM and or letro for a couple weeks. This actually makes your T go quite a bit higher than normal. and it could peak out at 1200ng/dl or more. LH is higher than normal while in the two weeks "on" it was pretty hammered down. So, over a 4 week period you would have put out a normal monthly total for LH, and I think that's a good idea. WHY, because even though you cannot see any testicular shrinkage I am sure a little does take place in the two weeks "on". The higher T also helps you keep you gains, Then stop the SERM and or letro and your T level will slowly drop back to YOUR normal.
More examples of good 2 weekers.
Masteron prop 300mg day one and then 150 day. Stop after day 10
dbol as above
Letro as above
PCT as above.
KILLER GOOD! Maybe best Eva(NY accent).... yeah you'll get some drol bloat and there is nothing you can do about that.
Anadrol 100mg a day in two doses for 14 days
Tren ace 150mg day one front load then 100mg/day for 10 days.
No letro
PCT as above
KILLER #2 Super good too.
Test prop 300mg day one then 150mg and stop after day 10
Tren ace as above
dbol as above
Letro 1.25mg per day
PCT as above
Decent two weeker...dbol only at 50mg/day(letro used) and a little better yet, anadrol only at 100mg/day(no letro).
TRAINING
I strongly believe in increasing the number of times that a muscle group is hit directly in this two week period. You CANNOT do this in a long cycle without recovery problems! You certainly cannot do it while off gear!!!
Three way split.
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday....Thursday off....Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Monday off...rotating like this. That hits each muscle group directly once every 4th day. Keep all pushing exercises on one day and all pulling on another and legs on the last day. Can take one more day off somewhere in the mix if you need to. That would hit each muscle group directly once every 5th day.
If you don't keep pushing work on one day and all pulling work on another then you'll end up working the tri's and bi's and shoulders more than once every 4-5 days and that's too much.
High intensity low to lowish volume. Deadllifts and or full squats are mandatory for overall body gains and obviously for legs and back. STRICT form in everything. Intensifiers like forced reps , rest pause reps, some cheat reps after getting at least 5 perfect reps.(not cheating on the squats and dead or course) No touch and go deads...re-set for each rep!
DIET 200mg/day of protein is more than enough.
Carbs...lots
Fats....next to no saturated fat....lots of omega 3 and 6 fats.
Sleep...lots...a daily 30 minute nap is great too. Good luck sleeping on the tren lol.
Off cycle....Three way Split training every other day at MOST. Many will need to drop to just Monday-Wednesday-Friday and hard gainers need to do a two way split training only 2 days a week, with perhaps ancillary exercises on a couple other days ie: abbs/forearms
Two weekers....GO BIG or don't bother!
RG
It isn't the added 50 mg of trenbolone acetate or 50 mg of boldenone propionate that might lead the maker to use more solubility enhancers: it's the 100 mg of testosterone propionate.
It should be little more difficult to dissolve 100 mg of testosterone propionate plus these esters as 100 mg TP alone, as the solubilities are largely independent. (Not entirely, as the amount of vehicle must be reduced.)
While it is not necessary to formulate a 100 mg/mL TP injection where it is painful, and probably not necessary here either, some makers do so anyway.
You can only find out by injecting!
It should be little more difficult to dissolve 100 mg of testosterone propionate plus these esters as 100 mg TP alone, as the solubilities are largely independent. (Not entirely, as the amount of vehicle must be reduced.)
While it is not necessary to formulate a 100 mg/mL TP injection where it is painful, and probably not necessary here either, some makers do so anyway.
You can only find out by injecting!
I don't think it would be practical to test oneself.
Well, now that I think about it, they very likely may taste different!
I don't have any L-aspartic acid for comparison.
D-aspartic acid (not the sodium or calcium salts) has a moderate amount of BCAA-like taste, plus a sweetness. To me, a saturated solution (as much DAA as will dissolve) is about as sweet as a typical flavored drink. I am however much more tolerant of BCAA-type taste than the average person. Some might be so revulsed by that part of the taste as to not pick up the sweetness: I don't know.
Reportedly L-aspartic acid has dull, flat, acid taste. No mention of sweetness that I found.
However, as I don't have a sample for comparison, and don't know that others would perceive the sweetness from the DAA that I do, I don't want to say for a fact that sweet taste can differentiate DAA from LAA. But so far it appears that that may be the case.
Well, now that I think about it, they very likely may taste different!
I don't have any L-aspartic acid for comparison.
D-aspartic acid (not the sodium or calcium salts) has a moderate amount of BCAA-like taste, plus a sweetness. To me, a saturated solution (as much DAA as will dissolve) is about as sweet as a typical flavored drink. I am however much more tolerant of BCAA-type taste than the average person. Some might be so revulsed by that part of the taste as to not pick up the sweetness: I don't know.
Reportedly L-aspartic acid has dull, flat, acid taste. No mention of sweetness that I found.
However, as I don't have a sample for comparison, and don't know that others would perceive the sweetness from the DAA that I do, I don't want to say for a fact that sweet taste can differentiate DAA from LAA. But so far it appears that that may be the case.
The Dutchman
New Member
Unless the selling company has sweetened it, but maybe that's a bit too paranoid. Another test would be to just try it as a sole supplement first; the moderate test raise should be noticable for a guy my age (41). And if it's bunk, the financial and health risks are low to non-existent.
Very right you are! On April 10th at like 3 in the morning, i took my first 2 mL injection of 200mg test prop/100mg tren ace/ 100mg drostanolone prop. Shot in the ventroglute (by myself hehe). The injection was painless at that time but starting yesterday, it got inflamed, swollen, and hot. I would say the swelling is about 4 inches in diameter and its only red in a small area around where the pin went through. last night (well technically this morning but before i went to sleep) i injected .8 ml ( 80mg test prop/ 40 mg mast prop/40 tren ace into the other ventroglute side. Used 25 g, 1.5 inch pins for these. The second injection is swollen and warm but not to the extent of the other.
Here are my questions...
1. Does this kind of swelling sound like normal inflammation or infection?
2. Is this something the body gets used to?
3. What should I do to help it feel better? Massage it? apply ice or heat?
4. Off topic but its something that really upset me.... In NJ up to last year it was illegal for one to purchase hypodermic needles over the counter. Supposedly Chris Christie conditionally vetoed the bill, S 958, in january adjusting the bill to allow the sale of up to 10 hypodermic needles to persons with photo ID that are over the age of 18. After this, the NJ assembly approved the law's passage. I went to like 5 pharmacies and called another 10 or so and they all said it was illegal and that they wouldnt sell me them. i politely informed them that they were mistaken... but no luck. WTF is up with these people? Is there a delay between passed laws and their enactment? i wasted my entire day trying to get slin pins because these bastards hurt lol.
Any advice would be appreciated
Thanks guys!
Here are my questions...
1. Does this kind of swelling sound like normal inflammation or infection?
2. Is this something the body gets used to?
3. What should I do to help it feel better? Massage it? apply ice or heat?
4. Off topic but its something that really upset me.... In NJ up to last year it was illegal for one to purchase hypodermic needles over the counter. Supposedly Chris Christie conditionally vetoed the bill, S 958, in january adjusting the bill to allow the sale of up to 10 hypodermic needles to persons with photo ID that are over the age of 18. After this, the NJ assembly approved the law's passage. I went to like 5 pharmacies and called another 10 or so and they all said it was illegal and that they wouldnt sell me them. i politely informed them that they were mistaken... but no luck. WTF is up with these people? Is there a delay between passed laws and their enactment? i wasted my entire day trying to get slin pins because these bastards hurt lol.
Any advice would be appreciated
Thanks guys!
mac111
New Member
please dont tell me its your 1st cycle?
mac111
New Member
thats alot of gear for an inexperienced user, you should feel your way in with this stuff not fire everything in. if you get shitty sides how you gona know where its coming from? tren is a harsh compound and not really advisable until you know exactly what you're doing. i hope your bf is 10% or under cos if not you wont notice much physical diff with mast.
you are most likely experiencing virgin muscle pain.
alot AAS of naivety on this forum.
body by cookies and cake
New Member
why no letro with abombs? can u explain this for me please.
Is the mast above 10% body fat really a waste? true or false. Dht and minimal anti e's is something i find appealing.
Real gains i see u promote letro , and it looks good on paper for bridging and pct, how does stane differ from letro, Am i wrong thinking stane kills less estrogen and allows you be more balanced? does it not raise t levels as high as letro?
Lastly seems var is teh drug of choice right now... so one of my clients will ask about it, so ill ask now. Can var play a role in the 2 on 4 off? would it have to be higher dose then 100mg?
last thing...
u said if u do 2 on 2 off all year your good cholesterol will be high? is this good or bad?? and secondly is its a drastic change doing the 2 on 4 off instead?
thanks bill, realgains and all teh info here.
Is the mast above 10% body fat really a waste? true or false. Dht and minimal anti e's is something i find appealing.
Real gains i see u promote letro , and it looks good on paper for bridging and pct, how does stane differ from letro, Am i wrong thinking stane kills less estrogen and allows you be more balanced? does it not raise t levels as high as letro?
Lastly seems var is teh drug of choice right now... so one of my clients will ask about it, so ill ask now. Can var play a role in the 2 on 4 off? would it have to be higher dose then 100mg?
last thing...
u said if u do 2 on 2 off all year your good cholesterol will be high? is this good or bad?? and secondly is its a drastic change doing the 2 on 4 off instead?
thanks bill, realgains and all teh info here.
body by cookies and cake
New Member
Good question to ask here. Bill Roberts (obviously) and Real Gains have more experience than anyone in the world using the "two-week" cycle protocol.opcorn:
An Integrated Steroid, Training, and Nutrition Program
How Has Your Two-Week Steroid Cycle Protocol Changed?
i never saw these..... great reads so the 2 and 2 now replaces the 2 and 4?
great info everyone
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