27 y/o looking for help/suggestions on attempted hpta restart

[Cashton]

Yeah, except that it’s not.

But it’s not my problem though. If people insist on buying nolvadex and putting it in their body even though it does not speed up HPTA recovery and sperm count, then by all means. Perfect for gyno treatment but that’s all.

I know it’s hard getting rid of a thought that has been hardcopied into peoples minds for years.

Firstly there’s no control, or consistency , second it was run and funded by a Dutch anti doping agency, I can pull it apart and explain why it’s flawed if you’d really like, but those two points should give you an idea why to start.
I’m not saying I disagree with the premise or the idea that comes from it, but I’m saying the study it self is garbage.

 

[Formsh1ft]

That study is flawed garbage, I’m sorry to break it to you..

Oh wait you saw that youtube video with the three guys, one of them was More Plates More Dates. Yeah the author of “Book on Steroids” commented on all of their criticism about the study.

Addendum 08-03-2021​

I've heard this trial has gotten some criticism, I'll walk through a few of these:

1. "Olivier de Hon is one of the authors. He's with the Dutch Doping authority." Yes, how does this exactly invalidate the results? Please point me what part got influenced by him. Moreover, I'm sure the Doping authority would've loved to see the steroid users NOT recover at all after 3 months already. But they did. I can assure you they would've loved different results from these. Jesus.
2. "They didn't instruct the steroid users to do [x], [y], [z], which would've led to better results." Yes, it's an OBSERVATIONAL study, not an interventional study. If they would've instructed the AAS users to do certain things with the compounds they were using, it would be pretty hard to get it passed the medical ethical committee in the first place. The only way you get an intervention passed them is if the intervention encourages the users to take less steroids. The goal of this trial was to assess the health risks involved with androgen abuse in practice. An observational setup like this is EXACTLY what you would want to do in that case.
3. "All androgens have been made equal on a milligram per milligram basis." Of course, there's no evidence to do otherwise. You could arbitrarily assign something like "2 mg testosterone = 1 mg trenbolone" or whatever, but that would be utter broscience. What would that number mean? Trenbolone is twice as potent in muscle-building? Twice as potent in suppressing the HPGA? Twice as potent in causing acne? Where the hell would you base these numbers on? Extremely flawed androgen assays? And how would this have affected the results anyway? ALL users had their endogenous testosterone production COMPLETELY suppressed during their cycles.
4. "The subjects did their PCT wrong lulz." Well, first, back to point 2, they couldn't tell them to do otherwise in the first place. And second, please tell me which research can tell us what a "good PCT" entails. There is none. It's all broscience and guesswork based on extrapolating studies from study populations with different causes of hypogonadism. The guys in the trial simply did PCT like most people do: take SERM(s) for roughly a month.
5. "They should've started PCT later." Ok, so what difference would you expect? The no-PCT group had the same testosterone levels that they had at baseline 3 months after their last injection anyways. How about just wait 3 months? That seems to work pretty well.
6. "Lulz they didn't make a subanalysis based on who used compound [x] and who used compound [y]". Good luck with doing that, because only in 13% of the samples the vial exclusively contained the AAS that was on the label, and in 47% of the cases the vial didn't even contain the steroid claimed on the label at all but contained a different one (or ones): Baseline characteristics of the HAARLEM study: 100 male amateur athletes using anabolic androgenic steroids - PubMed

 

[Cashton]

Oh wait you saw that youtube video with the three guys, one of them was More Plates More Dates. Yeah the author of “Book on Steroids” commented on all of their criticism about the study.

Addendum 08-03-2021​

I've heard this trial has gotten some criticism, I'll walk through a few of these:

1. "Olivier de Hon is one of the authors. He's with the Dutch Doping authority." Yes, how does this exactly invalidate the results? Please point me what part got influenced by him. Moreover, I'm sure the Doping authority would've loved to see the steroid users NOT recover at all after 3 months already. But they did. I can assure you they would've loved different results from these. Jesus.
2. "They didn't instruct the steroid users to do [x], [y], [z], which would've led to better results." Yes, it's an OBSERVATIONAL study, not an interventional study. If they would've instructed the AAS users to do certain things with the compounds they were using, it would be pretty hard to get it passed the medical ethical committee in the first place. The only way you get an intervention passed them is if the intervention encourages the users to take less steroids. The goal of this trial was to assess the health risks involved with androgen abuse in practice. An observational setup like this is EXACTLY what you would want to do in that case.
3. "All androgens have been made equal on a milligram per milligram basis." Of course, there's no evidence to do otherwise. You could arbitrarily assign something like "2 mg testosterone = 1 mg trenbolone" or whatever, but that would be utter broscience. What would that number mean? Trenbolone is twice as potent in muscle-building? Twice as potent in suppressing the HPGA? Twice as potent in causing acne? Where the hell would you base these numbers on? Extremely flawed androgen assays? And how would this have affected the results anyway? ALL users had their endogenous testosterone production COMPLETELY suppressed during their cycles.
4. "The subjects did their PCT wrong lulz." Well, first, back to point 2, they couldn't tell them to do otherwise in the first place. And second, please tell me which research can tell us what a "good PCT" entails. There is none. It's all broscience and guesswork based on extrapolating studies from study populations with different causes of hypogonadism. The guys in the trial simply did PCT like most people do: take SERM(s) for roughly a month.
5. "They should've started PCT later." Ok, so what difference would you expect? The no-PCT group had the same testosterone levels that they had at baseline 3 months after their last injection anyways. How about just wait 3 months? That seems to work pretty well.
6. "Lulz they didn't make a subanalysis based on who used compound [x] and who used compound [y]". Good luck with doing that, because only in 13% of the samples the vial exclusively contained the AAS that was on the label, and in 47% of the cases the vial didn't even contain the steroid claimed on the label at all but contained a different one (or ones): Baseline characteristics of the HAARLEM study: 100 male amateur athletes using anabolic androgenic steroids - PubMed

I’ve literally never watch a single YouTube bodybuilding guru because they’re mostly all parrots, but if that’s how you base your opinions I won’t hold it against you..

 

[Cashton]

Oh wait you saw that youtube video with the three guys, one of them was More Plates More Dates. Yeah the author of “Book on Steroids” commented on all of their criticism about the study.

Addendum 08-03-2021​

I've heard this trial has gotten some criticism, I'll walk through a few of these:

1. "Olivier de Hon is one of the authors. He's with the Dutch Doping authority." Yes, how does this exactly invalidate the results? Please point me what part got influenced by him. Moreover, I'm sure the Doping authority would've loved to see the steroid users NOT recover at all after 3 months already. But they did. I can assure you they would've loved different results from these. Jesus.
2. "They didn't instruct the steroid users to do [x], [y], [z], which would've led to better results." Yes, it's an OBSERVATIONAL study, not an interventional study. If they would've instructed the AAS users to do certain things with the compounds they were using, it would be pretty hard to get it passed the medical ethical committee in the first place. The only way you get an intervention passed them is if the intervention encourages the users to take less steroids. The goal of this trial was to assess the health risks involved with androgen abuse in practice. An observational setup like this is EXACTLY what you would want to do in that case.
3. "All androgens have been made equal on a milligram per milligram basis." Of course, there's no evidence to do otherwise. You could arbitrarily assign something like "2 mg testosterone = 1 mg trenbolone" or whatever, but that would be utter broscience. What would that number mean? Trenbolone is twice as potent in muscle-building? Twice as potent in suppressing the HPGA? Twice as potent in causing acne? Where the hell would you base these numbers on? Extremely flawed androgen assays? And how would this have affected the results anyway? ALL users had their endogenous testosterone production COMPLETELY suppressed during their cycles.
4. "The subjects did their PCT wrong lulz." Well, first, back to point 2, they couldn't tell them to do otherwise in the first place. And second, please tell me which research can tell us what a "good PCT" entails. There is none. It's all broscience and guesswork based on extrapolating studies from study populations with different causes of hypogonadism. The guys in the trial simply did PCT like most people do: take SERM(s) for roughly a month.
5. "They should've started PCT later." Ok, so what difference would you expect? The no-PCT group had the same testosterone levels that they had at baseline 3 months after their last injection anyways. How about just wait 3 months? That seems to work pretty well.
6. "Lulz they didn't make a subanalysis based on who used compound [x] and who used compound [y]". Good luck with doing that, because only in 13% of the samples the vial exclusively contained the AAS that was on the label, and in 47% of the cases the vial didn't even contain the steroid claimed on the label at all but contained a different one (or ones): Baseline characteristics of the HAARLEM study: 100 male amateur athletes using anabolic androgenic steroids - PubMed

@Michael Scally MD Could we get your thoughts on this study again please?

 

[Cashton]

Oh wait you saw that youtube video with the three guys, one of them was More Plates More Dates. Yeah the author of “Book on Steroids” commented on all of their criticism about the study.

Addendum 08-03-2021​

I've heard this trial has gotten some criticism, I'll walk through a few of these:

1. "Olivier de Hon is one of the authors. He's with the Dutch Doping authority." Yes, how does this exactly invalidate the results? Please point me what part got influenced by him. Moreover, I'm sure the Doping authority would've loved to see the steroid users NOT recover at all after 3 months already. But they did. I can assure you they would've loved different results from these. Jesus.
2. "They didn't instruct the steroid users to do [x], [y], [z], which would've led to better results." Yes, it's an OBSERVATIONAL study, not an interventional study. If they would've instructed the AAS users to do certain things with the compounds they were using, it would be pretty hard to get it passed the medical ethical committee in the first place. The only way you get an intervention passed them is if the intervention encourages the users to take less steroids. The goal of this trial was to assess the health risks involved with androgen abuse in practice. An observational setup like this is EXACTLY what you would want to do in that case.
3. "All androgens have been made equal on a milligram per milligram basis." Of course, there's no evidence to do otherwise. You could arbitrarily assign something like "2 mg testosterone = 1 mg trenbolone" or whatever, but that would be utter broscience. What would that number mean? Trenbolone is twice as potent in muscle-building? Twice as potent in suppressing the HPGA? Twice as potent in causing acne? Where the hell would you base these numbers on? Extremely flawed androgen assays? And how would this have affected the results anyway? ALL users had their endogenous testosterone production COMPLETELY suppressed during their cycles.
4. "The subjects did their PCT wrong lulz." Well, first, back to point 2, they couldn't tell them to do otherwise in the first place. And second, please tell me which research can tell us what a "good PCT" entails. There is none. It's all broscience and guesswork based on extrapolating studies from study populations with different causes of hypogonadism. The guys in the trial simply did PCT like most people do: take SERM(s) for roughly a month.
5. "They should've started PCT later." Ok, so what difference would you expect? The no-PCT group had the same testosterone levels that they had at baseline 3 months after their last injection anyways. How about just wait 3 months? That seems to work pretty well.
6. "Lulz they didn't make a subanalysis based on who used compound [x] and who used compound [y]". Good luck with doing that, because only in 13% of the samples the vial exclusively contained the AAS that was on the label, and in 47% of the cases the vial didn't even contain the steroid claimed on the label at all but contained a different one (or ones): Baseline characteristics of the HAARLEM study: 100 male amateur athletes using anabolic androgenic steroids - PubMed

Pretty sure that about half the gear these subjects used in the study was fake too, there’s lots of things that were flawed in the study, and again, I said I don’t mind pointing them out for you if you’d like, I would just need to re-read it and type it out for you.

 

[Formsh1ft]

Pretty sure that about half the gear these subjects used in the study was fake too, there’s lots of things that were flawed in the study, and again, I said I don’t mind pointing them out for you if you’d like, I would just need to re-read it and type it out for you.

Does the gear matter? Recovering from an anabolic steroid induced HPTA shutdown is still recovering from a shut down HPTA.

You can and may point them out of course, but for me it’s clear that the general concensus is that PCT is useless. You will recover just as fine without nolva or clomid.

Or do you have a better study done on bodybuilders that shows that nolvadex recovers ones HPTA?

 

[Cashton]

Does the gear matter? Recovering from an anabolic steroid induced HPTA shutdown is still recovering from a shut down HPTA.

You can and may point them out of course, but for me it’s clear that the general concensus is that PCT is useless. You will recover just as fine without nolva or clomid.

Or do you have a better study done on bodybuilders that shows that nolvadex recovers ones HPTA?

Absolutely it does, if you’re not even running gear how are you suppressed? Like I said, just one of the many things that were flawed in this study...

 

[Formsh1ft]

Absolutely it does, if you’re not even running gear how are you suppressed? Like I said, just one of the many things that were flawed in this study...

But… they were all supressed.

 

[Cashton]

Does the gear matter? Recovering from an anabolic steroid induced HPTA shutdown is still recovering from a shut down HPTA.

You can and may point them out of course, but for me it’s clear that the general concensus is that PCT is useless. You will recover just as fine without nolva or clomid.

Or do you have a better study done on bodybuilders that shows that nolvadex recovers ones HPTA?

Wish I did, unfortunately there’s not a whole ton of studies done on AAS and bodybuilding and a lot more of AAS and medical literature.

 

[Cashton]

But… they were all supressed.

To what degree is one suppressed running fake gear, or how much easier is it to recover from gear that’s way underdosed, this is just one of my points in why the study has issues in this one is a big lack of control.

 

[Cashton]

To what degree is one suppressed running fake gear, or how much easier is it to recover from gear that’s way underdosed, this is just one of my points in why the study has issues in this one is a big lack of control.

My point right now being that there’s way to many variables, things unknown and solid conclusions unable to be concluded confidently because of a major lack of control.

 

[Drew dude]

I’ve literally never watch a single YouTube bodybuilding guru because they’re mostly all parrots, but if that’s how you base your opinions I won’t hold it against you..

This is fucking hilarious to me. I feel the same way about the YT gurus, but the owner of more plates more dates is a guy named Derek, and he is actually really on point with all his videos from the past year. I only recently discovered his channel like a month ago. First video i saw of his was published like 5 years ago, and I was like, "this guy doesn't know shit," but he kept at it. He's the first youtuber I've ever seen that makes me feel like I'm listening to a veteran Meso member. You can tell he wasn't spoon fed shit. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was secretly a meso member to be honest. He even names meso at one point when he is talking about forums.

 

[adamjs15]

Alright boys, been off test completely for 12 days. Last shot was on the 14th. Will be pulling bloods this week. Was pinning 12.5mg ed with slins leading up to dropping the test completely. How long should an enanthate ester take to totally clear? Got my hcg, tamox and clomid ready to go.

 

[GuerillaPete]

3-4 weeks but you been on a low dose so maybe sooner.
Have you been running hcg along with the test?

 

[may2021]

As title states I am hoping for some input on an attempted hpta restart after about a year of blasting & cruising. This consisted of one initial cycle of 500mg test e for 3 months after which I cruised at 175mg/week for 3 months or so. Second blast was 400 test and 400 npp 100mg eod or so. The NPP fucked my skin and obviously made this attempt at restart harder I would imagine and definitely regret that cycle in hindsight. Natty TT before going on was 715 ng/dl. Am I wrong to be optimistic that as a 27 y/o whos balls were working pretty well beforehand could reasonably recover to around like a 500 something ng/dl total? Anyhow, I have pharma grade tamox, clomid and hcg order placed as of right now and would not mind suggestions on dosages, admin frequency etc. Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/user/VigorousSteve/search?query=hpta

 

[GuerillaPete]

https://www.youtube.com/user/VigorousSteve/search?query=hpta

I follow Steve from the Tony Huge videos. He quit steroids after many years of blast and cruise. He restarted his hpta but was not easy you should definitely check his videos on the subject.

 

[may2021]

I follow Steve from the Tony Huge videos. He quit steroids after many years of blast and cruise. He restarted his hpta but was not easy you should definitely check his videos on the subject.

Since coming off cycle, Steve has become an arrogant prick but, no one can deny his knowledge of PEDS: theoretical and practical. I highly recommend his e-books. You can do it bro.

 

[may2021]

This is fucking hilarious to me. I feel the same way about the YT gurus, but the owner of more plates more dates is a guy named Derek, and he is actually really on point with all his videos from the past year. I only recently discovered his channel like a month ago. First video i saw of his was published like 5 years ago, and I was like, "this guy doesn't know shit," but he kept at it. He's the first youtuber I've ever seen that makes me feel like I'm listening to a veteran Meso member. You can tell he wasn't spoon fed shit. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was secretly a meso member to be honest. He even names meso at one point when he is talking about forums.

That guy is a douche bag. His entire channel is troll city.
Fuck that Canadian douche.

 

[GuerillaPete]

Since coming off cycle, Steve has become an arrogant prick but, no one can deny his knowledge of PEDS: theoretical and practical. I highly recommend his e-books. You can do it

If you lear to fly its hard to go back to walking…
Anyways props to him but lets see how much it lasts i give hime a year tops and he's back ON

 

[IrishJuice]

Any update?