A Debate with Bill Roberts on Injection Kinetics

[newbie23]

last post

Impressive..........i learned a lot in a short amount of time-I was also confused and thought the elimination of the drug meant that it was clearing the body.

 

[newbie23]

this also explains the down feeling i get if i dont inject long estered test at least 3x a week

 

[Bill Roberts]

Conciliator should have read:

1) That I was not going to get into an inevitably useless back and forth on this, as I had already explained the matter clearly and from past experience I expected that for whatever reasonhe would not be able to learn from it, so further repetition would not help,

2) My article on esters which includes a reference on the matter

3) Enough books and articles to understand the processes involved.

Yet he actually started a new thread to "debate" me on it.

Conciliator, you don't know what you're talking about here. I explained it correctly already.

End of thread, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bigkarch]

I agree...all that has to be said has been said...I respect you both much...

 

[newbie23]

damn-as soon as i thought i had it figured out-i read bill's post again-and now im like " which way do i go george, which way do i go"

 

[OhNoYo]

I want to apologize in advance as I have not read all the posts in this thread as well as earlier posts in the other threads in addition to links put in both threads since it is so much reading to absorb at such late at time in the night... however I do feel that once a particular AAS is in the bloodstream, then it is in there for awhile, whether it is bound to an androgen receptor (AR), is bound to SHGB/Albumin, or is free floating.

In other words, once the AAS is bound to its respected receptor, it stays there for hours in the receptor-complex state... theoritically if it binds very tightly it is going to stay there for far longer to do its job. Also, if a certain AAS has a high affinity for SHGB/Albumin (perfect example is test), that means IMO that once it is freely associated after this occurrence when it is unbound, then it will either still stay in the bloodstream or be eliminated. 'Conversion factors for this (aromatase, 5alpha reductase, etc.) will obviously be dependent upon the respected AAS. Furthermore, I do not understand the argument here, as even with long ester types, such as enanthate & cypionate, if you inject them biweekly, then no one should run into problems, even if taking for TRT or even HRT purposes. Obviously, if one is taking for other purposes & using shorter esters, simply inject once a day which would suffice to keep a steady bloodstream state. Suspension injectables as well as supension set in oil though may be another story, but seem extremely tedious and frustrating to use, so Idk y ppl wud bother with them. As for orals, these are usually taken multiple times a day, but IMO, it is absoulelty impossible to keep a steady bloodstream state for these AAS types, unless one wants to wake in the middle of the nite to pop some winstrol & dbol tabs.

 

[Conciliator]

Conciliator, you don't know what you're talking about here. I explained it correctly already.

Bill, instead of merely stating that I don't know what I'm talking about, why don't you be a little more specific? Why don't you take a minute to explain what, exactly, I said that's incorrect. Because I've provided numerous references that clearly support exactly what I said. You, on the other hand, use the lame excuse that it's not worth your time. You appeal to yourself as an authority and then you end making another baseless claim that I'm wrong.

Explain what I said that's incorrect, Bill. The only time you've said anything specific was in the previous thread where you said "You were entirely incorrect to assert that metabolism was not the limiting step in the case of long-acting drugs." However, I never used the word metabolism in that post. I used the terms "clearance", "elimination" and "disposition." And if you're using "metabolism" to mean "clearance from the body," it's obviously not the limiting step. However, if you're using metabolism to mean hydrolysis from the depot (which it appears you are) then nothing I said contradicts that.

I'm not sure if you're confused over what the term "absorption" meant, but you've failed to explain how anything I've said is incorrect. This thread is your opportunity. If you'd rather dance around the issue and fail to address the question of what it is I said that's supposedly incorrect, that's your prerogative. But I've done my part explaining why I'm correct and I've thoroughly backed up what I've said.

 

[OhNoYo]

Bill, instead of merely stating that I don't know what I'm talking about, why don't you be a little more specific? Why don't you take a minute to explain what, exactly, I said that's incorrect. Because I've provided numerous references that clearly support exactly what I said. You, on the other hand, use the lame excuse that it's not worth your time. You appeal to yourself as an authority and then you end making another baseless claim that I'm wrong.

Explain what I said that's incorrect, Bill. The only time you've said anything specific was in the previous thread where you said "You were entirely incorrect to assert that metabolism was not the limiting step in the case of long-acting drugs." However, I never used the word metabolism in that post. I used the terms "clearance", "elimination" and "disposition." And if you're using "metabolism" to mean "clearance from the body," it's obviously not the limiting step. However, if you're using metabolism to mean hydrolysis from the depot (which it appears you are) then nothing I said contradicts that.

I'm not sure if you're confused over what the term "absorption" meant, but you've failed to explain how anything I've said is incorrect. This thread is your opportunity. If you'd rather dance around the issue and fail to address the question of what it is I said that's supposedly incorrect, that's your prerogative. But I've done my part explaining why I'm correct and I've thoroughly backed up what I've said.

Conciliator does express a great point here. AAS are not really metabolized in general, as they do not provide calories. Since AAS are not directly affliated w/ this (though they do have a profound impact upon how energy is both used & stored), Con is correct in terms of definition. However, IM AAS use IMO will always give 100% bioavailabilty to the user. Though some ppl will argue against injection site in addition to the amount of bodyfat deposits to where it is injected, it is pretty much guaranteed that someday at sometime, you will get what you injected yourself with. And I do understand that this is a hot topic, I do strongly feel that biweekly injections with long esters and everyday injections with short esters will give the body a steady stream of AAS for the body to utilize efficiently.

 

[Conciliator]

Conciliator does express a great point here. AAS are not really metabolized in general, as they do not provide calories.

To be clear, that's not at all what I said. AAS definitely do undergo metabolism.

 

[wheninrome]

man i got a bad case of deja vu...

 

[Stretch]

Even tho BR won't give a response, there's still a TON of information here.

Thanks Con. for bringing all that down to my level.

Much appreciated.

Great thread.



Man up BR

 

[Conciliator]

Bill has decided not to continue the debate here, but he has continued it elsewhere. Fortunately, we're now starting to see some of Bill's specific arguments, which clearly contradict the references I've provided. This continuation of the argument is makes it much more apparent that Bill is confused and incorrect. He still has no references. Just his word against everyone's.

You can see Bill's arguments here.

And you can see my response to them later in the thread, starting here.

Enjoy

 

[OhNoYo]

To be clear, that's not at all what I said. AAS definitely do undergo metabolism.

Sir, are you stating that AAS are metabolized b/c of different conversion pathways they go through via enzymes, with examples being aromatase & 5alpha reductase? Since enzymes are involved during biochemical procedures w/ AAS, then I guess one can assume AAS are metabolized, if one would want to be rather specific. However, I stated generally speaking, as though the definition, "metabolism" essentially means, "change", the word is mostly used when speaking of macronutrient substances, which contain energy, i.e. calories. However, vitamins, coenymes, cofactors, & minerals are sometimes thrown into the mix as well, which provide no energy whatsoever ever either.

 

[Jeton]

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn: