A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Oops, I meant .5 letro e3d.

if gyno does show up, why not increase the AI AND add nolva?

my rationale is that if gyno does rear its ugly head, your Ai dosage is insufficient. Increase it to a sufficient level, and add nolva. it's what I did and it certainly helped me, and it's what i'll do if (and I hope I never get bloody gyno again) it ever happens again
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

if gyno does show up, why not increase the AI AND add nolva?

my rationale is that if gyno does rear its ugly head, your Ai dosage is insufficient. Increase it to a sufficient level, and add nolva. it's what I did and it certainly helped me, and it's what i'll do if (and I hope I never get bloody gyno again) it ever happens again

Because AI's stop the production of estrogen at the cellular level, yes, that might help gyno in a roundabout way, but Nolva specifically displaces estrogen at the breast receptor sights. As stated before, one hammers down/destroys estro, the other focuses on displacing it at the receptor site.

Thus, in order to stop/prevent gyno you would probably have to do a higher amount which causes ED and joint soreness.

I am struggling as to why some of you are having a problem w/ this fairly simple distinction.

I run a very small amount of AI to contain basic estro throughout the body (hence the .5 e3d). I take 10 mgs of nolva 2 out every 3 days to prevent gyno.

Also, there is an emerging body of evidence that strongly suggests that long term AI use is problematic. I don't have the literature on hand, but Dr Larry Lipschultz, my trt doc was involved in the research
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Because AI's stop the production of estrogen at the cellular level, yes, that might help gyno in a roundabout way, but Nolva specifically displaces estrogen at the breast receptor sights. As stated before, one hammers down/destroys estro, the other focuses on displacing it at the receptor site.

Thus, in order to stop/prevent gyno you would probably have to do a higher amount which causes ED and joint soreness.

I am struggling as to why some of you are having a problem w/ this fairly simple distinction.

I run a very small amount of AI to contain basic estro throughout the body (hence the .5 e3d). I take 10 mgs of nolva 2 out every 3 days to prevent gyno.

Also, there is an emerging body of evidence that strongly suggests that long term AI use is problematic. I don't have the literature on hand, but Dr Larry Lipschultz, my trt doc was involved in the research

i follow you there Pericles. But supposing the AI dosage was insufficient in the first place (hence the gyno) and E2 wasn't being suppressed enough, wouldnt you want to increase the AI to a more decent level, but at a level that WOULDN'T cause ED and joint problems. lets be extreme and say a user is taking 0.25mg arimidex E3D, and wants to bump it up to 0.5mg E3D or EOD, that's still reasonable, and wouldnt normally cause ED and joint problems.

that's all i'm saying...increase the dose of AI from "way too low," to "just enough."
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

i follow you there Pericles. But supposing the AI dosage was insufficient in the first place (hence the gyno) and E2 wasn't being suppressed enough, wouldnt you want to increase the AI to a more decent level, but at a level that WOULDN'T cause ED and joint problems. lets be extreme and say a user is taking 0.25mg arimidex E3D, and wants to bump it up to 0.5mg E3D or EOD, that's still reasonable, and wouldnt normally cause ED and joint problems.

that's all i'm saying...increase the dose of AI from "way too low," to "just enough."

OK, I agree that if overall e2 is high, then yes, increasing AI dosage is warranted (however, in most cases AI use is too high, I have people cut dose in half and go e2d and symptoms go away). But again, lowering overall e2 does not specifically target and displaced estrogen at the breast receptors.

This thread is reminding me of when I used to teach. I would present a concept, explain it fully, give concrete examples and then (attempt) to get my students to give me feedback to ensure they understood the concept.

90% of my students would "get it." The other 10% just could not "get it" no matter how many times and or ways I would explain it to them.
 
AROMASIN – Exemestane

Type-I Aromatase Inhibitor


Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It’s called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it.

Aromasin averages 90% rate of estrogen suppression, which equals a reduction in estradiol levels of about 50%, as well as significantly raising testosterone .(up to 60%)

Aromasin not only increases testosterone and lowers estrogen, but it also increases levels of insulin -like growth Factor (IGF). And Aromasin is not too harsh on lipid panel (cholesterol), unlike some of the other AIs’ like Letrozole (Femara)

Aromasin reaches steady blood plasma levels of after a week of administration, and this is also when we see it begin its maximal effect on reducing circulating estrogen levels. It has a terminal half life of 9 hours in MEN, so taking it once per day will build up blood plasma levels to a very effective level.

Also, there have been some additional researches related to Aromasin in men in pharmacokinetics. The results of the research are the following:

24 hours after one 25mg dose, estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%;

72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below the baseline;

120 hours after initial dose, estrogen levels return to baseline.


Additionally, the University of Florida conducted a study in healthy young men:

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males.

Nemours Children’s Clinic and Research Programs (N.M., J.L., A.R.), Jacksonville, Florida 32207; and University of Florida Health Sciences Center (D.P.) and Amersham Pharmacia Biotech (E.d.S., A.K., B.L.), Peapack, New Jersey 07977

To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg Aromasin daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed using a 25-mg dose. Aromasin suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38%; 50 mg, 32%], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; for both).

The following observations were made:

1. Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment.
2. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption.
3. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h.
4. The drug was well tolerated.
5. The terminal half-life was 8.9 hours in the male subjects.

In conclusion, Aromasin (Exemestane) is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.


References and Supporting Data:

1. A predictive model for exemestane pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics incorporating the effect of food and formulation.Br J Clinical Pharmacology. 2005 Mar, 59(3):355-64.

2. Eur. J. Cancer. 2000, May;36(8):976-82

3. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society

4. Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S

5. Anticancer Res. 2003 Jul-Aug;23(4):3485

6. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Dec;88(12):5951-6.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


ARIMIDEX - Anastrozole

Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor


Arimidex binds reversibly to the aromatase enzyme through competitive inhibition. This suppresses the conversion of androgens into estrogen. Circulating plasma estrogen can be reduced by nearly 85% in women using Arimidex. A common misconception is that aromatase inhibition is similar in men and women.

However in trials when males were administered 1mg of Arimidex daily, circulating estrogen was only reduced by about 50%. Anastrozole is rapidly absorbed orally (time to reach maximum concentration, 1 hour) with a slow apparent clearance of 1.54 liters/h and a terminal half-life of 46.8 h.

But unlike Aromasin, once you stop taking Arimidex, the aromatase enzyme is free to convert androgens (testosterone) into estrogen again. This is referred to as estrogen rebound.

Estrogen has been measured as much as 7 times higher than normal in men on steroids . This is excessive and can potentially cause water retention, gynecomastia or benign prostatic hyperplasia. Therefore, in order to avoid these side effects, estrogen must be controlled.

Reduction in breast area and breast volume have been observed in young men treated for 6 months with Arimidex (1 mg daily). These subjects had recent pre-existing gynecomastia (less than one year). However boys with longstanding gynecomastia (more than one year) were unresponsive to 6 months of Arimidex treatment, possibly due to development of dense breast fibrosis. Therefore using Arimidex to treat recent gynecomastia is supported by the data.

From all the data available, 0.25-.50mg of Arimidex every other day is a good starting point on moderate doses of testosterone. If testosterone doses are raised, then an increase may be needed to control estrogen. Since either high and low estrogen can cause side effects, such as low libido, only labs can determine the appropriate dose of Arimidex.

Arimidex not only lowers circulating estrogen but it also increases LH and FSH concentrations in addition to increasing testosterone by about 58% in men. In one study elderly men with mild hypogonadism were administered 1mg daily of Arimidex for 12 weeks. This treatment normalized serum testosterone levels in those men without adversely affecting lipids, precursors of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance. Please see excerpt from ATAC study below.

“Clinical Study - Cholesterol

During the ATAC 5 year trial (Arimidex, Tamoxifen , Alone, or in Combination) more patients receiving ARIMIDEX were reported to have an elevated serum cholesterol compared to patients receiving tamoxifen (9% versus 3.5%, respectively). A post-marketing trial also evaluated any potential effects of ARIMIDEX on lipid profile. In the primary analysis population for lipids (ARIMIDEX alone), there was no clinically significant change in LDL-C from baseline to 12 months and HDL-C from baseline to 12 months.

In secondary population for lipids (ARIMIDEX+risedronate), there also was no clinically significant change in LDL-C and HDL-C from baseline to 12 months. In both populations for lipids, there was no clinical significant difference in total cholesterol (TC) or serum triglycerides (TG) at 12 months compared with baseline.“

The difference in the elevated serums levels during the ATAC trial between patients receiving Arimidex and those receiving Tamoxifen were, (9% versus 3.5%, respectively) Only a 5.5% difference. Again, in this trial, treatment for 12 months with ARIMIDEX alone had a neutral effect on lipid profile. Combination treatment with ARIMIDEX and risedronate also had a neutral effect on lipid profile. Please see link for complete study: http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed...l1231180697883

*So for average users of AAS who chooses to include Arimidex as their primary aromatase inhibitor, there is no cause for concern. However, monitoring your Cholesterol levels while using AAS, is recommended.


Other Clinical Studies

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels.

Dougherty RH, Rohrer JL, Hayden D, Rubin SD, Leder BZ.
Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA 02114, USA.

Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in hypogonadal men, there is concern that androgens may deleteriously affect cardiovascular risk in elderly men.

Anastrozole is an oral aromatase inhibitor that normalizes serum testosterone levels and decreases oestradiol levels modestly in elderly men with mild hypogonadism. Thirty-seven elderly hypogonadal men were randomized to receive either anastrozole 1 mg daily, anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly, or daily placebo for 12 weeks in a double-blind fashion. Men aged 62-74 years with mild hypogonadism defined by testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl.

Treatment with Arimidex did not significantly affect fasting lipids, inflammatory markers adhesion molecules or insulin sensitivity. There was, however, a positive correlation between changes in serum triglycerides and changes in serum oestradiol levels. And while short-term administration of Arimidex is an effective method of normalizing serum testosterone levels in elderly men with mild hypogonadism, it does not appear to adversely affect lipid profiles, inflammatory markers of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance.

Note: These studies were summarized and showed Arimidex decreased Estradiol by about 50% while raising Testosterone by about 58% in males.


References

1. Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels.
2. Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.
3. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of anastrozole in pubertal boys with recent-onset gynecomastia.
4. Influence of Neoadjuvant Anastrozole (Arimidex) on Intratumoral Estrogen Levels and Proliferation Markers in Patients with Locally Advanced Breast Cancer.
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

OK, I agree that if overall e2 is high, then yes, increasing AI dosage is warranted (however, in most cases AI use is too high, I have people cut dose in half and go e2d and symptoms go away). But again, lowering overall e2 does not specifically target and displaced estrogen at the breast receptors.

This thread is reminding me of when I used to teach. I would present a concept, explain it fully, give concrete examples and then (attempt) to get my students to give me feedback to ensure they understood the concept.

90% of my students would "get it." The other 10% just could not "get it" no matter how many times and or ways I would explain it to them.

if they were overusing an AI then they likely would not have any gyno issues. I have effectively avoided gyno with an AI. even on 1g+ test ew NO serm. it works well if you know what your doing with the AI dose and hopfully gettign blood work.
no need to displace estrogen in breast if your AI dose is correct. if you are running an AI on cycle, gyno pops up and you need to bump up AI dose a bit tor correct it then yes i agree adding a low dose SERM temporarily while the AI take effect would be the smart thing to do. but i would focus on AI to avoid gyno and other estrogen related issues. thats my opinion. doesnt mean i am the 10% that doesnt get it, i see your argument but i feel its flawed... thats my opinion....

most that complain about using an AI for gyno and having sex or joint issues rise the dose too quick ( letro usually) or are using it off cycle to get rid of gyno. which i do NOT agree with off cycle if your estrogen is normal in that case use a serm for 2-3 months to starve the glands but not your body, before considering getting it cut out.
 
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From my understanding doc is arguing the use of an ai to TREAT Gyno is ineffective. Obviously he is correct. Juiced is arguing that keeping e2 within normal levels will PREVENT Gyno. Obviously he is correct as well.

I'm not sure what the argument is between you?

Yes Nolva will be better at preventing Gyno but at the cost of an increase in SHBG and decrease in IGF-1. Which is one of the reasons why if you can establish an effective ai dose that keeps levels within range it will be a better option during a cycle.

If you start to get the sides then up the ai dose and start taking Nolva.
Simple.
 
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Gyno is a local response to E-2 and most mates have normal or near normal E-2 levels IME, please tell me yours, lol!
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I just re-read my 10% comment/post. I apologize again, it was excessively snarky.

The academic literature posits that the problem w/ AI's is that they cause a loss in bone density. Of course gear and weight training increase bone density, so the 2 might cancel each other out.

I am currently 450 test/week w/ 300 deca/week, 40 mgs of var and 20 D bol 4 days a week. Test and d bol have me using 1 mg Dex twice a week, and 10 mgs nolva the other 5 days.

if they were overusing an AI then they likely would not have any gyno issues. I have effectively avoided gyno with an AI. even on 1g+ test ew NO serm. it works well if you know what your doing with the AI dose and hopfully gettign blood work.
no need to displace estrogen in breast if your AI dose is correct. if you are running an AI on cycle, gyno pops up and you need to bump up AI dose a bit tor correct it then yes i agree adding a low dose SERM temporarily while the AI take effect would be the smart thing to do. but i would focus on AI to avoid gyno and other estrogen related issues. thats my opinion. doesnt mean i am the 10% that doesnt get it, i see your argument but i feel its flawed... thats my opinion....

most that complain about using an AI for gyno and having sex or joint issues rise the dose too quick ( letro usually) or are using it off cycle to get rid of gyno. which i do NOT agree with off cycle if your estrogen is normal in that case use a serm for 2-3 months to starve the glands but not your body, before considering getting it cut out.
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

This thread should be a sticky.

Agreed. If we cleaned it up and wittled it down a bit.

The main prblem, is how agreessively do we want to manage estro?

To get labwork/see my trt doc, I have a fairly long drive into a dense portion of the city. Parking runs me $18, not counting tip and then I usually spend more than an hour waiting. I have waited nearly 2 hours before.

Thus, I only get blood work twice a year. That means I have to guesstimate how much estro suppression I need. Higher test w/ a small amount of D bol=more AI. And when I run HCG, I really need more AI, 1 one mg tab of Adex 5-6 days a week, along w/ some Nolva.

I have recently bumped up AI a bit. I also developed an erectile function issue[:o)] It turned out, however, to not be excess estro production. Stopped using deca, and the issue cleared up.

Properly managing estro is an art and science.
 
Read through all this and am now so confused. Almost concussed. The research goes on........
 
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