A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I found the following by a BB named Paul Borrenson who I understand to have been a very serious BB. The article describes his program that uses "15 - 30 day cycles with doses 1,000 mg a day." This is massive doses, but as one can read so are his AI doses. He does not leave it at this, but includes a SERM, which is the one and only way to optimally minimize gynecomastia. There could be no other reason except gynecomastia. I do not think for a minute he would omit the SERM even in light of a huge AI dose. And, if you extrapolate the AI dose to 500 MG, the AI dose is Arimidex 2 MG. It might be overboard, but if you are looking to control E2, it is better to be low than high!



anabolic extreme archives issue #2 dnp and insulin 2 / https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/455548


FWIW: The maximum AAS used by a patient of mine was 3.5 G/Week on a consistent basis. Obviously, he never was "off."

You must be talking about N@#$%n. However N*&^%n has only been on 2k a week (or at least that is all he will admit to). Oh, and he has been on for 5 years straight.

I was trying to decide if my last cycle should have been 10 or 12 weeks. I thought about N%$#@n and decided on 14 weeks.[)]

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Someone is losing it! The thread by your own posts and admission is about gynecomastia (& PCT), NOT edema or PB. Is PB supposed to be Blood Pressure (BP)! On that point, what evidence is that E2 is the cause for BP problems? The evidence is that BP problems are not caused by E2. In fact, lowering E2 more often does not control BP (or PB). BP control requires other measures. Why?

edema/bloat can cause BP issues in people holding alot of water on cycle, an issue with high androgens for some, for those an AI would help BP if that's the only contributing factor......

Keep going man... keep going....

I am going. It is hard to keep up with your changing position and FOS posts (more on those later). So, you are stating the belief that E2 is the cause for BP problems based on your bloat theory, correct? And, an AI fixes the BP by lowering E2, correct? What accounts for BP problems in a cycle with non-aromatizable AAS? Or do you think this does not occur?

This is getting off-topic from the OP, but since E2 has been stated as causing "bloat," which is then the cause of PB [sic] problems, I will address this in a brief manner. "Newly" found elevated BP after administering AAS can be a challenge to the user as well as the caretaker.

The simple idea that this problem arises from E2 is without supportive evidence. I came to this conclusion very early in treating AAS users by the fact that no amount of E2 control managed the BP. I am sure this is the experience of many AAS users. This is further confirmed by the fact that non-aromatizable AAS can cause elevated BP. [Proviron is reported to cause an increased BP.] This observation would lead one to conclude that the AAS itself is the source of the BP problems and lowering E2 while AAS are high will have limited success.

As the elegant study below shows, androgens (Testosterone) do appear to be the cause. I have never argued against E2 control, but directed therapies at their cause, thus SERM for gynecomastia. In the clinical context where an AI is being used for E2 control and BP is a problem do not look at more AI to further lower E2, but treat the BP.


The researchers present new evidence on genomic and nongenomic mechanisms of testosterone action on vascular smooth muscle cells in arterial hypertension through modulating associated cellular events, thus setting the stage for further aggravation of hypertension. Using animal models of normotension and polygenic hypertension, the investigators found that, in vascular smooth muscle cells from male animals, testosterone regulates cellular processes, which mediates vascular contraction and hypertrophy, key events contributing to the increased vascular resistance in hypertension. They also observed greater production of reactive oxygen species in response to testosterone in vascular smooth muscle cells from hypertensive as compared with normotensive animals. These effects were not attributed to conversion of testosterone to 17Beta-estradiol, because the aromatase inhibitor anastrazole had no effect on reactive oxygen species formation.


Barton M, Prossnitz ER, Meyer MR. Testosterone and Secondary Hypertension: New Pieces to the Puzzle. Hypertension. Testosterone and Secondary Hypertension


Chignalia AZ, Schuldt EZ, Camargo LvL, et al. Testosterone Induces Vascular Smooth Muscle Cell Migration by NADPH Oxidase and c-Src-Dependent Pathways. Hypertension. Testosterone Induces Vascular Smooth Muscle Cell Migration by NADPH Oxidase and c-Src–Dependent Pathways

Testosterone has been implicated in vascular remodeling associated with hypertension. Molecular mechanisms underlying this are elusive, but oxidative stress may be important. We hypothesized that testosterone stimulates generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and migration of vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs), with enhanced effects in cells from spontaneously hypertensive rats (SHRs). The mechanisms (genomic and nongenomic) whereby testosterone induces ROS generation and the role of c-Src, a regulator of redox-sensitive migration, were determined.

VSMCs from male Wistar-Kyoto rats and SHRs were stimulated with testosterone (10?7 mol/L, 0–120 minutes). Testosterone increased ROS generation, assessed by dihydroethidium fluorescence and lucigenin-enhanced chemiluminescence (30 minutes [SHR] and 60 minutes [both strains]). Flutamide (androgen receptor antagonist) and actinomycin D (gene transcription inhibitor) diminished ROS production (60 minutes). Testosterone increased Nox1 and Nox4 mRNA levels and p47phox protein expression, determined by real-time PCR and immunoblotting, respectively. Flutamide, actinomycin D, and cycloheximide (protein synthesis inhibitor) diminished testosterone effects on p47phox. c-Src phosphorylation was observed at 30 minutes (SHR) and 120 minutes (Wistar-Kyoto rat). Testosterone-induced ROS generation was repressed by 3-(4-chlorophenyl) 1-(1,1-dimethylethyl)-1H-pyrazolo[3,4-day]pyrimidin-4-amine (c-Src inhibitor) in SHRs and reduced by apocynin (antioxidant/NADPH oxidase inhibitor) in both strains. Testosterone stimulated VSMCs migration, assessed by the wound healing technique, with greater effects in SHRs. Flutamide, apocynin, and 3-(4-chlorophenyl) 1-(1,1-dimethylethyl)-1H-pyrazolo[3,4-day]pyrimidin-4-amine blocked testosterone-induced VSMCs migration in both strains.

Our study demonstrates that testosterone induces VSMCs migration via NADPH oxidase–derived ROS and c-Src–dependent pathways by genomic and nongenomic mechanisms, which are differentially regulated in VSMCs from Wistar-Kyoto rats and SHRs.

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Now you are being completely silly....reminds me of the statement "it is better to be silent and have people think you may be a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
Here is another way of looking at things: AIs' are hammers that completely destroy estrogen. So, large amounts will fend off gyno....but also lower estro way too much. You will have erectile problems, sore joints etc.

On the other hand, nolva is more of a surgical knife, directly displacing estro at the breast, while not driving estro too low.

JUCED: nolva is not like a surgical knif, it it like a bandaid...leaving high estro from cycle to do your body harm like edema and high PB along with others?...

Pericles:WOW, This level of ignorance is a bit shocking. Displacing estrogen at the breast tissue is very, very specific...like......wait for it.... a surgical knife (or Knif, as you call it).

Here is another analogy. Lets say your house is on fire. If we put a giant cup (read AI) over your house, the fire would go out due to no oxygen. Of course you and your family would also die.

JUCED: : DUDE thats just silly to explain like that, ok how about this: you have a gas leak in the house and instead of fixing the gas leak, you just get your family a bunch of breathing masks....
I use letro on cycle and have for very long cycles at a low dose with NO ED issues EVER or hurting joints from low E or crashing my estrogen.
Just because you take an AI doesn't mean you will crash the levels. its not that simple.
I am using letro now and have been for about 3mo now." end Juced quote.

Pericles: Ah, 3 whole months....I only have 20 years of experience. Furthermore, your logic is twisted, and completely supports my/ and Doc S's position.

If your house is on fire, removing your family is analogous to using Nolva, which specifically solves the problem (keeping them alive). Leaving the house is analytically similar to Nolva displacing estro at the precise area (breasts) where it is needed.

Conversely, a gas mask, while allowing you to breath better (analogous to completely suppressing estro) will not protect you from he flames.

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Someone is losing it! The thread by your own posts and admission is about gynecomastia (& PCT), NOT edema or PB. Is PB supposed to be Blood Pressure (BP)! On that point, what evidence is that E2 is the cause for BP problems? The evidence is that BP problems are not caused by E2. In fact, lowering E2 more often does not control BP (or PB). BP control requires other measures. Why?

He must have meant PBJ.....do they taste better or worse using an AI or SERM?

 

[mands]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

then looking at prog and other factors is the next step along with checking E levels through blood work.

nothing hard to grasp.... about ignoring high e levels from cycles and treating it with something that does not fix that but rather blocks the estrogen but leaving it to grow in the body.

This WU was not for cancer it is for aas users....

So are you saying that SERM's react differently with cancer carriers than they do with AAS users? Not grasping this either. The "Cancer" has no baring on the effectiveness of the drug being used. This study is certainly appropriate for this discussion.

mands

 

[Romulus]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

So, as a take away, can I conclude that it is best to take an AI on cycle for E2 management and, perhaps, gyno prevention (in case E2 is the culprit after all), and then have a SERM as the big gun if symptoms actually present? Or would one want a low-dose of a SERM included in the cycle protocol as active gyno prevention?

 

[freakinhuge]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Now you are being completely silly....reminds me of the statement "it is better to be silent and have people think you may be a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
Here is another way of looking at things: AIs' are hammers that completely destroy estrogen. So, large amounts will fend off gyno....but also lower estro way too much. You will have erectile problems, sore joints etc.

On the other hand, nolva is more of a surgical knife, directly displacing estro at the breast, while not driving estro too low.

JUCED: nolva is not like a surgical knif, it it like a bandaid...leaving high estro from cycle to do your body harm like edema and high PB along with others?...

Pericles:WOW, This level of ignorance is a bit shocking. Displacing estrogen at the breast tissue is very, very specific...like......wait for it.... a surgical knife (or Knif, as you call it). its not cutting out the estrogen or cause of issue, i think is his point, I am with him on estrogen playing the main role in gyno IN AAS USERS

Here is another analogy. Lets say your house is on fire. If we put a giant cup (read AI) over your house, the fire would go out due to no oxygen. Of course you and your family would also die.

JUCED: : DUDE thats just silly to explain like that, ok how about this: you have a gas leak in the house and instead of fixing the gas leak, you just get your family a bunch of breathing masks....
I use letro on cycle and have for very long cycles at a low dose with NO ED issues EVER or hurting joints from low E or crashing my estrogen.
Just because you take an AI doesn't mean you will crash the levels. its not that simple.
I am using letro now and have been for about 3mo now." end Juced quote.

Pericles: Ah, 3 whole months....I only have 20 years of experience. Furthermore, your logic is twisted, and completely supports my/ and Doc S's position.
He has been using Letro for many years judging from the cycles I have seen him post over the years... He never said he has only used letro 1 time and for 3mo, he has used letro many times.
If your house is on fire, removing your family is analogous to using Nolva, which specifically solves the problem (keeping them alive). Leaving the house is analytically similar to Nolva displacing estro at the precise area (breasts) where it is needed.

Conversely, a gas mask, while allowing you to breath better (analogous to completely suppressing estro) will not protect you from he flames.

I added above in red

 

[freakinhuge]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

So are you saying that SERM's react differently with cancer carriers than they do with AAS users? Not grasping this either. The "Cancer" has no baring on the effectiveness of the drug being used. This study is certainly appropriate for this discussion.

mands

Your missing the point... it is the CANCER TREATMENTS that are causing the gyno like in prostate, it is a common issue... NOT the fact some one has cancer and ohh all a sudden an SERM wouldent work , even the OP says a SERM would be better for off cycle gyno or gyno from another cause (ie; Cancer).... You are missing points here. its ON cycle that is the point here and I totally agree.
He is talking about normal AAS users. I clearly see his point....
and I also see his point about most of Scallys views BASED on cancer studies and cancer people not in aas users using high levels of aas so you miss things due to that unless your mind is... well not sure how to put it but Smart? and know how to interpret studies and how they may vary under differing conditions..

I also agree that I have noticed less BP issues when on an AI on the same cycle vs. just a SERM like i did many years ago. I KNOW its NOT the only factor and there are many for BP... thats a given. and even for eg. how tren can raise BP, the OP also knows this as and i know this because I have seen him mention deca and tren in cycles.
I think his point it it may help BP for some with alot of bloat and i think his main point is leaving your estrogen super high on cycle and only using a SERM is an unhealthy a stupid idea and i totally agree.
To avoid gyno from cycling you should use an AI not a SERM on cycle as your first defense. I have done it this way for years now and I can clearly see an AI keeping gyno away.
Fix the underlying issue , do not cover it up...

if you are on a cancer treatment or are using other drugs that may cause gyno then of course use another method to deal with it...

I just can not believe how some of you are tying to make him look like a dumb ass, I have gotten great advice from him and see him at a few forums I am also at so i feel it is only right to stick up for the guy on that note AND because I feel his points are valid, more so then Scallys.. at least on an AI being better for gyno prevention over a SERM for PEOPLE ON AAS if gyno is coming from the androgenic cycle...

I know estrogen is not the ONLY way to get gyno and the OP also does, but this thread is not about every one on the world.... it is about androgenic cycles most of us in the bbing scene do.

 

[freakinhuge]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

So, as a take away, can I conclude that it is best to take an AI on cycle for E2 management and, perhaps, gyno prevention (in case E2 is the culprit after all), and then have a SERM as the big gun if symptoms actually present? Or would one want a low-dose of a SERM included in the cycle protocol as active gyno prevention?

Take an AI on cycle to prevent gyno, if gyno comes raise AI dose wait a week or two and get blood work.
If E is low-normal and gyno still an issue for some reason (wont be for just about eveyrone on cycle with low-normal E levels using an AI form MANY people I know and have seen posting) THEN add in low dosed SERM, specially if you are using many compounds....
*no estrogen is not the only issue in the world for gyno, but I feel (as obviously Juced does) that it is the MAIN cause for most all aas cycles/users*
But I would not just use a SERM the whole time and leave out an AI and I would not use both unless needed, which has yet to happen to me since I have started using an AI over a SERM. (I do keep a SERM on hand all the time of course because no one is debating a SERM will keep gyno away, just that its not optimal or healthy to use only a SERM. even a SERM and AI is a better idea but I do feel its over kill and one should just try to manage their E with an AI first for many reasons then just gyno even though gyno is my main reason.

sorry for my rant but this "old school" way of doing things is funny and the fact soo much energy is being put in to flame the OP and to deny it is even funnier...
many can contest to this being optimal...

I think I am also done with this thread.
I thought it would be a nice debate but it is a waste of time reading all the pages.

Personally I like debate but this was not that, it started as a flame then a defense the rest of the way..

summery:
have both a SERM and AI on hand,
use AI,
most likely no more gyno,
if there is, up AI dose,
get blood work,
if normal then add SERM because you may have other genetic traits or even compounds as other contributing factors.
I doubt anyone (or very few) would say they still got gyno coming on cycle using an AI properly... (no one ever said AI was right for every type/cause of gyno under the sun) but for the normal AAS user.. its time to update your info and gain EXP yourself to see it works....

Cheers everyone

 

[mands]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Your missing the point... it is the CANCER TREATMENTS that are causing the gyno like in prostate, it is a common issue... NOT the fact some one has cancer and ohh all a sudden an SERM wouldent work , even the OP says a SERM would be better for off cycle gyno or gyno from another cause (ie; Cancer).... You are missing points here. its ON cycle that is the point here and I totally agree.
He is talking about normal AAS users. I clearly see his point....
and I also see his point about most of Scallys views BASED on cancer studies and cancer people not in aas users using high levels of aas so you miss things due to that unless your mind is... well not sure how to put it but Smart? and know how to interpret studies and how they may vary under differing conditions..

I also agree that I have noticed less BP issues when on an AI on the same cycle vs. just a SERM like i did many years ago. I KNOW its NOT the only factor and there are many for BP... thats a given. and even for eg. how tren can raise BP, the OP also knows this as and i know this because I have seen him mention deca and tren in cycles.
I think his point it it may help BP for some with alot of bloat and i think his main point is leaving your estrogen super high on cycle and only using a SERM is an unhealthy a stupid idea and i totally agree.
To avoid gyno from cycling you should use an AI not a SERM on cycle as your first defense. I have done it this way for years now and I can clearly see an AI keeping gyno away.
Fix the underlying issue , do not cover it up...

if you are on a cancer treatment or are using other drugs that may cause gyno then of course use another method to deal with it...

I just can not believe how some of you are tying to make him look like a dumb ass, I have gotten great advice from him and see him at a few forums I am also at so i feel it is only right to stick up for the guy on that note AND because I feel his points are valid, more so then Scallys.. at least on an AI being better for gyno prevention over a SERM for PEOPLE ON AAS if gyno is coming from the androgenic cycle...

I know estrogen is not the ONLY way to get gyno and the OP also does, but this thread is not about every one on the world.... it is about androgenic cycles most of us in the bbing scene do.

No you are missing the point and the fact that I'm being a smart ass. SERM's do not act differently when it comes to cancer patients or AAS users. A SERM's(nolvadex) works exactly how it needs to work in treating gyno not managing E2 as a AI would. Juced stated that the study wasn't valid because it was used with cancer patients. And it actually does have merit in this discussion. You saying that and AI is better for treating gyno is just wrong. It's better at managing E2 period.

Again you are managing E2 with an AI which I think we can all agree on. The question is gyno can still occur with lower E2 levels. I have personally seen it in many users that try and treat there gyno problems with an AI and guess what they still have gyno issues.

mands

 

[mands]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Take an AI on cycle to prevent gyno, if gyno comes raise AI dose wait a week or two and get blood work.
If E is low-normal and gyno still an issue for some reason (wont be for just about eveyrone on cycle with low-normal E levels using an AI form MANY people I know and have seen posting) THEN add in low dosed SERM, specially if you are using many compounds....
*no estrogen is not the only issue in the world for gyno, but I feel (as obviously Juced does) that it is the MAIN cause for most all aas cycles/users*
But I would not just use a SERM the whole time and leave out an AI and I would not use both unless needed, which has yet to happen to me since I have started using an AI over a SERM. (I do keep a SERM on hand all the time of course because no one is debating a SERM will keep gyno away, just that its not optimal or healthy to use only a SERM. even a SERM and AI is a better idea but I do feel its over kill and one should just try to manage their E with an AI first for many reasons then just gyno even though gyno is my main reason.

sorry for my rant but this "old school" way of doing things is funny and the fact soo much energy is being put in to flame the OP and to deny it is even funnier...
many can contest to this being optimal...

I think I am also done with this thread.
I thought it would be a nice debate but it is a waste of time reading all the pages.

Personally I like debate but this was not that, it started as a flame then a defense the rest of the way..

summery:
have both a SERM and AI on hand,
use AI,
most likely no more gyno,
if there is, up AI dose,
get blood work,
if normal then add SERM because you may have other genetic traits or even compounds as other contributing factors.
I doubt anyone (or very few) would say they still got gyno coming on cycle using an AI properly... (no one ever said AI was right for every type/cause of gyno under the sun) but for the normal AAS user.. its time to update your info and gain EXP yourself to see it works....

Cheers everyone

I agree with you on most of this freakinghuge. I do not agree that you should up your AI dose if gyno shows up while already running an AI. This is where your SERM comes in. Which you state to do after upping the AI dose. I disagree with your protocol on that.

And you don't prevent gyno with and AI you manage E2 that's all I'm saying.

mands

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Here is what I do, when test is at 500 mgs a week: Tiny amount of (5 mgs) Letro, e3d, the other 2 days I take 10 mgs of Nolva.

 

[mands]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Here is what I do, when test is at 500 mgs a week: Tiny amount of (5 mgs) Letro, e3d, the other 2 days I take 10 mgs of Nolva.

Pericles meant .5mg not 5mg. Typo

mands

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Does anybody else think the vocabulary, syntax and writing style used by Freakinhuge is suspiciously similar to that of the OP? It sure looks like it to me.

Dr. Scally, you might have been right about the OP being a troll.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

10-13-2011, 06:31 PM https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/784474

never get them anymore, hate getting any shots.

Take an AI on cycle to prevent gyno, if gyno comes raise AI dose wait a week or two and get blood work.
If E is low-normal and gyno still an issue for some reason (wont be for just about eveyrone on cycle with low-normal E levels using an AI form MANY people I know and have seen posting) THEN add in low dosed SERM, specially if you are using many compounds....
*no estrogen is not the only issue in the world for gyno, but I feel (as obviously Juced does) that it is the MAIN cause for most all aas cycles/users*
But I would not just use a SERM the whole time and leave out an AI and I would not use both unless needed, which has yet to happen to me since I have started using an AI over a SERM. (I do keep a SERM on hand all the time of course because no one is debating a SERM will keep gyno away, just that its not optimal or healthy to use only a SERM. even a SERM and AI is a better idea but I do feel its over kill and one should just try to manage their E with an AI first for many reasons then just gyno even though gyno is my main reason.

sorry for my rant but this "old school" way of doing things is funny and the fact soo much energy is being put in to flame the OP and to deny it is even funnier...
many can contest to this being optimal...

I think I am also done with this thread.
I thought it would be a nice debate but it is a waste of time reading all the pages.

Personally I like debate but this was not that, it started as a flame then a defense the rest of the way..

summery:
have both a SERM and AI on hand,
use AI,
most likely no more gyno,
if there is, up AI dose,
get blood work,
if normal then add SERM because you may have other genetic traits or even compounds as other contributing factors.
I doubt anyone (or very few) would say they still got gyno coming on cycle using an AI properly... (no one ever said AI was right for every type/cause of gyno under the sun) but for the normal AAS user.. its time to update your info and gain EXP yourself to see it works....

Cheers everyone

I guess you learned to like shots! You are the worse kind of TROLL. His EXPERIENCE is as a TROLL. Do not believe jack shit from this FOOL. [BTW: He is one of a crew with identical IPs that all of a sudden reappeared. I am working on tracking the IPs currently. He has the identical IP as poster(s) on this thread. Care to guess? This FOOL forgot his needle phobia from 2011.]

 

[Dr JIM]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

FH, I'm sorry but the "old school way" your referring to is based on THE EXISTING EVIDENCE. What your espousing to is based on EXPERIENCES, which are collectively called anecdotes, and should never be equated with FACTUAL DATA used as guidelines for medical therapeutics.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Meso: As I suspected far too easy from the total absence of knowledge of any sort, Juced/Blergs [and other names] is a TROLL. He is a TOTAL and COMPLETE POS. I was doing more research on IPs when another member notified me that Sworder smelled out this POS awhile back. [I will post my IP findings later, but it will not take much to guess the TROLLS. They are on this thread and Juced/Blergs other threads.]

I am not upset, angry, ... in the least. From your posts, it sounds like your feelings are hurt. TFB I am pointing out to the Meso readers that you are FOS. I have more experience in regards to BB/AAS than you will ever have unless, of course, you open a medical practice to treat said users. I have pointed out now multiple statements by you that are CRAP. And, I could care less if you agree or disagree. The Meso readers will decide for themselves. I am having a rather good day, a very good day. It is great to expose a BS artist to the Meso readers. Further, you have all the markings of a BB wannabe and IMO a TROLL. As long as you are on Meso, I will be here to call your BS out. Unlike you, I care that AAS users do no harm to themselves. If you do not like it, MOVE ON.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134328109

IGF-1 peptide is not the same as produced by the liver. The peptide IGF-1 is garbage. If you had any success with IGF-1 or MGF I would surely be surprised, localized growth my ass.

If you had some more posts I might not mistake you for a promoter.

Juced Blergs stop the shit please

I got this email 10 minutes ago before your post Juced. It would seem like you copied the original post when you were logged on Blergs and then edited cut the message out and reposted on Juced. It would seem like you are Blergs and Juced and many others.. You can continue the "..." if you want I will always recognize you Mister

Dear Sworder,

Blergs has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Peptide GHRP-6 - in the Steroid Forum forum of MESO-Rx Think Steroids.

This thread is located at:
Peptide GHRP-6 - Page 2

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by Sworder)---
Peptides are a waste of time and money imo! Even if you have tons of knowledge on timing to achieve a GH pulse the results are going to be arbitrary.
---End Quote---
Im sorry but I do not agree and MANY others also would not that have used them (atleast real/good quality peptides)
Also explain to me how if HGH's main growth effect is from IGF-1 (made in liver) that by taking igf-1 or better yet IGF-1 Des would not produce results?
Sort of what you are saying by saying peptides ar enot worth it, shit IGF is more worth it $ to result (growth) then HGH.

I have seen great results with peptides and my fave is the IGF-1, though I have found the CJC and GHRP combo very nice as well.

I have seen better results in a shorter time with IGF-1 then HGH and if used both more then once. for fatloss HGH wa sa bit better, but im about gains, fatloss is diet to me.

I highly recy the CJC + GHRP combo if you can use it for no less then 3-4mo per run at 100mcg 2-4X a day.
or IGF-1 Des 10-20mcg 1-2X a day for 6-10 weeks

both of these i have found very effective.

Hope you give them a better chance some time and hopfully it changes your mind.
I do agree with you on the HGH market being messed up, just another reason i rather get igf-1.
***************

For sure, you don't hear a lot of people happy with their peptide results so it's duly noted. Well besides dipshit promoter Juced/Blergs..

BTW: THIS IS MESO. WE DO NOT FOOL AROUND HERE. WE TAKE PEOPLES LIVES AND THEIR HEALTH SERIOUSLY.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

FH, I'm sorry but the "old school way" your referring to is based on THE EXISTING EVIDENCE. What your espousing to is based on EXPERIENCES, which are collectively called anecdotes, and should never be equated with FACTUAL DATA used as guidelines for medical therapeutics.

Dr. Jim: FH is a TROLL. And, an idiot and bad one at that.

 

[guimaraes.gerson]

Hello Dr Scally
wouldn`t be to betterto avoid gyne 1mg arimidex more 20mg nolvadex?
so i reduce e2 and inhibit the absortion!!!!!!!!

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Here is what I do, when test is at 500 mgs a week: Tiny amount of (5 mgs) Letro, e3d, the other 2 days I take 10 mgs of Nolva.

Oops, I meant .5 letro e3d.