A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

No one contended one was more effective than the other except Dr Scally. The OP said ai use on cycle is effective (effective- not more effective) at gyno prevention. Of course if you can keep e 2 manged with an ai it is effective at gyno prevention That shouldnt even be a discussion. The fact it still is by someone as knowledgeable as Dr Scally is getting a bit silly imo. A serm will directly prevent gyno , an ai indirectly. Who the hell want to take both if you dont have too and since you should manage estrogen for other reason by using an ai on cycle (IMO) why the hell use a serm if you dont need too? Thats ridiculous.

Wrong! Where do you have the evidence for the idea that IF you keep E2 in check with an AI, gyno will be prevented. Further, you make an argument that both will prevent gyno, albeit directly/indirectly. Do they do so equally/effectively is the argument. The OP is clear for his position in that an AI is included for the cycles while SERMs are excluded and used only for PCT.

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

The easy answer for those unable to read is the name of the thread: "A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read." The argument has nothing to do with managing E2 levels.

You made the ai/serm gyno contention the crux of your argument in your berating of the OP. Now it doesnt need to be explained cause thats not whet the thread is about? The fact is I dont think you can ethically argue my last few posts. Because even though they directly contradict your earlier contentions (you remember when you bashed the OP like a redheaded step child for no reason) - they are accurate and correct.

 

[Juced]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

The easy answer for those unable to read is the name of the thread: "A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read." The argument has nothing to do with managing E2 levels.

Yes is does...... thats why I say AI is best option for gyno control. BEST option to avoid/control gyno on cycle. NOT a SERM!
why the hell would i leave my estrogen to do what ever it wants going up and up? Just silly


Read it any way you want.....

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

DR Scally show me gyno in the absence of elevated estrogen as a common occurrence on cycle - and we will talk.
This is silly - your witch hunt on the OP in now skewing fact and reality. I expect more. Seriously.

 

[Millard]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

No one contended one was more effective than the other except Dr Scally. The OP said ai use on cycle is effective (effective- not more effective) at gyno prevention.

I think the OP said this specifically with regard to gyno prevention.

the SERM may help keep gyno at bay but using an AI is a better option.

Now, can we move on to the best way for E2 management?

This is an important distinction. In spite of the antagonistic nature of this thread, this thread has been informative towards understanding the distinction.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

No one contended one was more effective than the other except Dr Scally. The OP said ai use on cycle is effective (effective- not more effective) at gyno prevention. Of course if you can keep e 2 manged with an ai it is effective at gyno prevention That shouldnt even be a discussion. The fact it still is by someone as knowledgeable as Dr Scally is getting a bit silly imo. A serm will directly prevent gyno , an ai indirectly. Who the hell want to take both if you dont have too and since you should manage estrogen for other reason by using an ai on cycle (IMO) why the hell use a serm if you dont need too? Thats ridiculous.

Castle analogy is backwards. You can take a substance that guards al the doors when it comes to e2 (ai) or you can take one that guards only one (serm). If if was gonna be an accurate anaology thats what it should say. Or do we simply throw more drugs in the mix unnecessarily because even though one will prevent gyno the other will do it better - so lets just use both. Doesnt sound prudent to me.

You are certainly confused. If you are unable to understand the castle analogy, there is no use in entering in a discussion. By your own statement, an AI is indirect, but now you state an AI guards all of the doors (direct). LMAO

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

You are certainly confused. If you are unable to understand the castle analogy, there is no use in entering in a discussion. By your own statement, an AI is indirect, but now you state an AI guards all of the doors (direct). LMAO

I didnt say it guards it direct or indirect in my castle analogy. This is assenine. It effectively does it - directly or indirectly who the fuck cares?
Dont try to demean me as not intelligent enough to discuss this The fact is you have failed to adequately address several posts by several people ITT regarding ai use and gyno prevention because you are wrong and dont want to admit it. AGAIN Ill say it and wait - YOU show me show me gyno in the absence of elevated estrogen as a common occurrence on cycle - and we will talk. Ill be waiting till hell freezes over. You know it.

 

[skywalk]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

when I got gyno symptoms, I took both an AI and SERM and it cleared up. who cares which works better? they both worked well for me [)]

 

[Juced]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Wrong! Where do you have the evidence for the idea that IF you keep E2 in check with an AI, gyno will be prevented. Further, you make an argument that both will prevent gyno, albeit directly/indirectly. Do they do so equally/effectively is the argument. The OP is clear for his position in that an AI is included for the cycles while SERMs are excluded and used only for PCT.

With the exception of some cases like if gyno is coming on quickly and AI needs a week or two to have noticed effect (DUE to th eperson not using an AI formt he start) OR when dumb people don't have an AI on hand, get gyno and have to order and wait for it, THEN I do rec a SERM on cycle WHILE WAITING FOR AI TO TAKE EFFECT TO FIX THE ISSUE!... then stop the SERM of course because would never rec that as a gyno preventative tool in this day and age...

OHH but where are the studies ! show me the studies!!???
Just because there are not any on a bunch of bbers doesn't make it untrue... sadly Studies can only show so much in some areas if they are not , man w/e.....
Maybe one day we will see a study with control groups of people on cycle with an AI and people on cycle with only a SERM, then people with a combo and people with non.... All the logic is behind my argument not yours, sorry.

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

this thread has been informative towards understanding the distinction.

Its actually a great thread and topic.

 

[Millard]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

So, let me get this straight.

EVERYONE agrees SERMs are better than AIs at stopping gyno.

And...

EVERYONE agrees AIs are better than SERMs for E2 management.

And we're still arguing?

 

[Juced]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I think the OP said this specifically with regard to gyno prevention.

Yes i DID, because it will help PREVENT gyno, SERM will hold it at bay in the nipple, not addressing the main issue, NOT preventing it in my op

Now, can we move on to the best way for E2 management?

This is an important distinction. In spite of the antagonistic nature of this thread, this thread has been informative towards understanding the distinction.

in red*

I agree on last part, but i would have liked a cleaner debate (what i thought it might be) not bashing egotistical hardheadednes. I would leave this forum from this BS.... but then scally would just be happy so if anything I will stick around more now..


I will debate it with another person, not interested in Scally anymore

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

With the exception of some cases like if gyno is coming on quickly and AI needs a week or two to have noticed effect (DUE to th eperson not using an AI formt he start) OR when dumb people don't have an AI on hand, get gyno and have to order and wait for it, THEN I do rec a SERM on cycle WHILE WAITING FOR AI TO TAKE EFFECT TO FIX THE ISSUE!... then stop the SERM of course because would never rec that as a gyno preventative tool in this day and age...

OHH but where are the studies ! show me the studies!!???
Just because there are not any on a bunch of bbers doesn't make it untrue... sadly Studies can only show so much in some areas if they are not , man w/e.....
Maybe one day we will see a study with control groups of people on cycle with an AI and people on cycle with only a SERM, then people with a combo and people with non.... All the logic is behind my argument not yours, sorry.

So, let me get this straight.

EVERYONE agrees SERMs are better than AIs at stopping gyno.

And...

EVERYONE agrees AIs are better than SERMs for E2 management.

And we're still arguing?

No, he has stood his ground that an AI is the choice for gyno. He is on record for this opinion from the OP and now confirmed.

 

[Juced]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

So, let me get this straight.

EVERYONE agrees SERMs are better than AIs at stopping gyno.

And...

EVERYONE agrees AIs are better than SERMs for E2 management.

And we're still arguing?

AI is better at stopping & preventing gyno ON CYCLE, a SERM is good as a "tie over" to addressing the issue... with an AI.
also much healthier (if AI dose is low of course because crashing estrogen levels is not good on the body)

will a SERM during the whole cycle keep gyno away? OF COURSE IT WILL! I NEVER said it would not, but it is NOT optimal and leave the underlying issue, THATS my point. and Scally doesn't want to hear it... It is an out dated old school way of doing things, we know better now... some anyway...

and an SERM wont manage E2 but a AI will of course.

I'm done.

I do appreciate you trying to tone down the thread though.

 

[Juced]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

No, he has stood his ground that an AI is the choice for gyno. He is on record for this opinion from the OP and now confirmed.

FINALLY!.... I agree

 

[Millard]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Yes is does...... thats why I say AI is best option for gyno control. BEST option to avoid/control gyno on cycle. NOT a SERM!
why the hell would i leave my estrogen to do what ever it wants going up and up? Just silly

So, let me get this straight.

EVERYONE agrees SERMs are better than AIs at stopping gyno.

And...

EVERYONE agrees AIs are better than SERMs for E2 management.

And we're still arguing?

No, he has stood his ground that an AI is the choice for gyno. He is on record for this opinion from the OP and now confirmed.

FINALLY!.... I agree

My bad

 

[Millard]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Yes i DID, because it will help PREVENT gyno, SERM will hold it at bay in the nipple, not addressing the main issue, NOT preventing it in my op

What happens when someone taking an AI on-cycle still has a problem with gyno?

 

[skywalk]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

That's what happened to me. I increased the AI dosage and added a SERM

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Here is another way of looking at things: AIs' are hammers that completely destroy estrogen. So, large amounts will fend off gyno....but also lower estro way too much. You will have erectile problems, sore joints etc.

On the other hand, nolva is more of a surgical knife, directly displacing estro at the breast, while not driving estro too low.

Here is another analogy. Lets say your house is on fire. If we put a giant cup (read AI) over your house, the fire would go out due to no oxygen. Of course you and your family would also die.

 

[MANWHORE]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

If we put a giant cup (read AI) over your house, the fire would go out due to no oxygen. Of course you and your family would also die.

You couldn't come up, with a happier analogy?