A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I am not upset, angry, ... in the least. From your posts, it sounds like your feelings are hurt. TFB I am pointing out to the Meso readers that you are FOS. I have more experience in regards to BB/AAS than you will ever have unless, of course, you open a medical practice to treat said users. I have pointed out now multiple statements by you that are CRAP. And, I could care less if you agree or disagree. The Meso readers will decide for themselves. I am having a rather good day, a very good day. It is great to expose a BS artist to the Meso readers. Further, you have all the markings of a BB wannabe and IMO a TROLL. As long as you are on Meso, I will be here to call your BS out. Unlike you, I care that AAS users do no harm to themselves. If you do not like it, MOVE ON.

 

[JimStevens]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

So you know, the initiating factor for gyno is incompletely known. Theory include E2 as well as T:E2. There are others. Also, you might wish to think of the castle analogy. I accept you challenge!!! Are you sure you want this challenge?

I am aware of the complexities of this issue. I am also aware that the core issue regardless is estrogen management. I am always open to discuss and learn as long as it is free of saving face bs pulling up obscure case studies to support a position. Its prudent to manage estrogen with an ai on cycle for several reasons, gyno prevention is just one To imply or insinuate an ai cannot be used effectively in the vast majority of aas users in the prevention of gyno is simply ridiculous, all due respect..

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

This thread is making me feel nostalgic! I haven't seen flaming like this since the heydays of misc.fitness.weights.

I wish I got on this board a long time ago!

 

[Juced]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I am not upset, angry, ... in the least. From your posts, it sounds like your feelings are hurt. TFB I am pointing out to the Meso readers that you are FOS. I have more experience in regards to BB/AAS than you will ever have unless, of course, you open a medical practice to treat said users. I have pointed out now multiple statements JUST because you have a practice and "CAN" treat gyno with a SERM doesnt make you a know it all GURU or right on the best way.. i know docs that are dumbass's and docs that are smart. you are no dumb ass, just hard headed and a bit blind in my op by you that are CRAP. And, I could care less if you agree or disagree. The Meso readers will decide for themselves. I am having a rather good day, a very good day. It is great to expose a BS artist to the Meso readers. Further, you have all the markings of a BB wannabe and IMO a TROLL. As long as you are on Meso, I will be here to call your BS out. Unlike you, I care that AAS users do no harm to themselves. If you do not like it, MOVE ON.

I think you let your EGO go to your head big time.

I am here to do the same as you to avoid aas users from getting hurt or having sides....
YOU keep attacking and calling me a TROLL, names and saying Im full of shit. (I am not, my logic is more sound then your is on gyno.. "hey lets cover up the issue of high estro with just blocking it at the nipple with a SERM over fixing the issue and keeping estro in check and the other bad sides that come with it AND you ignore other issues from high E"
Your problem is you WANT to be right and NEED to be because your sense of identity of the mind stays in tact... so in your mind you are... that is fine... I actually feel bad for you now).

let the forum decide, I am not threatened by you in the least and have already gotten multiple messages from people saying they pretty much cant believe how hard headed and rude your are. (and funny enough on more than just this forum, guess people on multiple forums are even watching this.)

Stay close minded and guided by only studies without realworld results/feedback/test of our community.. that it fine.. but if this is how you will post in my threads please make it one post with your OP and F-off so others can read. if they want to read your view they can go look for it mr.big shot...


BTW,
a MEMBER HERE asked ME to POST THIS UP...SO I DID! It was nothing else but a request I followed through with...


PS. I am no troll I am a mod/vet and admin on various forums (and a BBr for years), many know me (even here) under a few names. Many know me over the years, I just never posted all that much here, mostly read but recently i have liked coming here more.... serves me right i guess....

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

i know docs that are dumbass's and docs that are smart.

dumbasses, NOT dumbass's [Plural, NOT possessive.] dumbass - Wiktionary

And, those BIG red letters really make a point. You are a bright one. LMAO

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

No way I'll ever run a cycle without an ai again. Thats for sure.
Dr Scally I respect your opinions greatly, and all you have done for this community, but to be honest I was somewhat surprised to see you act in such a manner .

 

[MANWHORE]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I really think you guys are
missing his whole argument..

This happens when people get mad
and can't think straight...

Take the AI and let the thread go, already.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

No way I'll ever run a cycle without an ai again. Thats for sure.
Dr Scally I respect your opinions greatly, and all you have done for this community, but to be honest I was somewhat surprised to see you act in such a manner .

Go for it! AIs do not prevent gyno while on cycle. I have had many cases of gyno where this strategy was used. I am not against an AI. I am wholly against the idea it will prevent gyno. AIs are not new. They have been around for decades.

This is what you get when you jump into a thread without reading the posts. I never said that an AI was not useful for E2 control. I stated that the OP's post about using an AI to PREVENT gyno is bogus. Further, even his proposed AI dose is BS. Somehow, the OP believes that having a T level 10X NL and using ~1/20 the dose in a study of eugonadal males, which decreased E2 by 50% will keep E2 WNL [Factor 200 - Go ahead and use this dose for E2 control.] It will do nothing to keep E2 WNL. The OP gives an assurance that using this dose AI will PREVENT gyno. It will NOT. The OP's dismissal of a SERM for gyno is misplaced as the castle analogy was meant to demonstrate. If your biggest concern for E2 control is gyno, you better add a SERM. And, even this will not PREVENT gyno.

[As stated earlier, while the precise cause of gyno is unknown it is well-accepted to be T:E2 imbalance. In head-to-head gyno treatment, is an AI or SERM better?]

HINT: [I will provide the answer and studies later. In direct clinical care, this is also found for gyno of AAS origin.]

This is not the best analogy, but it is the best I can come up with to dispel the myth that an AI is better than a SERM for gynecomastia. This is not to say an AI is not useful to treat gyno, but it is far from the first choice. As in any choice, clinical context is paramount.

Here is the analogy. Actually, there are studies that basically use this paradigm. Imagine there is a castle with 100 gates to enter. And, you have the job of protecting the castle against marauders. The marauders in this case is E2! There are two options: (1) Protect ALL of the gates (SERM); or (2) Protect NONE of the gates, but kill 50+% (even say 90%) of the marauders (AI). Which of these options will best protect the castle?

[The first objection was his use of SERMs for the PCT. And, no one here questions the absence of hCG OR timing! This will leave one hypogonadal. Upon more review, it became clear the OP suggestions for gyno were just as bad.]

 

[Walnutz]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

This is what you get when you jump into a thread without reading the posts. I never said that an AI was not useful for E2 control. I stated that the OP's post about using an AI to PREVENT gyno is bogus. Further, even his proposed AI dose is BS. Somehow, the OP believes that having a T level 10X NL and using ~1/20 the dose in a study of eugonadal males, which decreased E2 by 50% will keep E2 WNL [Factor 200 - Go ahead and use this dose for E2 control.] It will do nothing to keep E2 WNL. The OP gives an assurance that using this dose AI will PREVENT gyno. It will NOT. The OP's dismissal of a SERM for gyno is misplaced as the castle analogy was meant to demonstrate. If your biggest concern for E2 control is gyno, you better add a SERM. And, even this will not PREVENT gyno.

[As stated earlier, while the precise cause of gyno is unknown it is well-accepted to be T:E2 imbalance. In head-to-head gyno treatment, is an AI or SERM better?]

HINT: [I will provide the answer and studies later. In direct clinical care, this is also found for gyno of AAS origin.]




[The first objection was his use of SERMs for the PCT. And, no one here questions the absence of hCG OR timing! This will leave one hypogonadal. Upon more review, it became clear the OP suggestions for gyno were just as bad.]

Maybe he didn't feel like writing about HCG on this topic? I have seen him post before on it, about using it during cycle near end of it to help recovery over the whole cycle or on PCT so I know he knows about it. maybe he felt there was so much debate on whats best to just leave it out? I do agree with you though, he should have mentioned more on HCG in the post.... but that is not really something to get all worked up about.

also my main reason for posting: you are telling me you do not see how keeping estrogen levels low to normal with an AI during would prevent Gyno?

I am sorry but I am with Juced on the gyno topic also.
I have seen many posts from him on other forums and I know he is not a jack off like your trying to make him out to be here.
should he have mentioned HCG? sure, but other then that I don't see reason for all your blabbering and am surprised by your conduct just because you do not agree with him, very rude.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

To be clear, your choice between an AI or SERM (choose only one) for gyno prevention is an AI, correct? And, you agree with the AI dose? That is the argument.

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

A compete and total FAIL. A FAIL at both HPTA restoration AND Gyno prevention. I did not get past the first example, which is a joke. I would NOT listen to this crap. Do you have any idea how long it will take TE 500 MG QW X 12 WK to clear before the HPTA is in a state for function/restoration? There are more problems ...

Gee doc, how do you really feel

But yes, I noticed the same thing. IME, it takes about 3 weeks for a long acting ester like T E to clear (and longer for Deca). That is why I have always liked doing a 20 day (1.5-2k IUs' e2d of HCG) run at end of cycle. By then I can successfully get Clomid and Nolvadex to do their thing for HPTA restoration.

Having said that, there was some good info here.

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Are you so sure of the 2-3 weeks? More importantly, your admission is evidence NOT to listen to any of the suggestions. Why the absence of hCG? This is inexcusable.

On the gyno, my analogy is an easy way to demonstrate an AI in many many cases is the wrong drug to reach for when treating gyno. Do you have studies showing an AI to be superior to a SERM? I would like to read them. There are a number of studies showing SERM as far superior to an AI. [Again, I am not saying an AI is not useful for gyno. They are good treatments under the right context.]

Doc, what is your opinion of .5 mgs of Letro e3d, and 10 mgs of Tamox on the other 2 days? These are done w/ weekly 500 mgs of test, alone, although sometimes w/ 350 Mast, or 200 tren stacked on the test. I believe the mast is already an anti estrogen.

I know results vary from individual to individual

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I have no dog in this fight, so please don't misinterpret my post.

YOU keep attacking and calling me a TROLL, names and saying Im full of shit. (I am not, my logic is more sound then your is on gyno.. "hey lets cover up the issue of high estro with just blocking it at the nipple with a SERM over fixing the issue and keeping estro in check and the other bad sides that come with it AND you ignore other issues from high E"

You're understandably angry, but your anger is causing you to misunderstand what Dr. Scally's is saying. He didn't suggest AI's weren't useful for gyno.

Your problem is you WANT to be right and NEED to be because your sense of identity of the mind stays in tact... so in your mind you are... that is fine... I actually feel bad for you now).

Psychobable.

let the forum decide, I am not threatened by you in the least and have already gotten multiple messages from people saying they pretty much cant believe how hard headed and rude your are. (and funny enough on more than just this forum, guess people on multiple forums are even watching this.)

I cringe when I read comments like this in an online debate. It doesn't help you.

Stay close minded and guided by only studies without realworld results/feedback/test of our community.. that it fine.. but if this is how you will post in my threads please make it one post with your OP and F-off so others can read. if they want to read your view they can go look for it mr.big shot...

Again, you're missing the point. The Doc has treated over 1000 AAS users/patients. That's a lot of "real world" clinical experience. Obviously, studies are important when putting together treatment plans for any condition. This is what evidence-based medicine is all about.

PS. I am no troll I am a mod/vet and admin on various forums (and a BBr for years), many know me (even here) under a few names. Many know me over the years, I just never posted all that much here, mostly read but recently i have liked coming here more.... serves me right i guess....

Like i said, I know you're pissed, but don't take it personally. Instead, take it as a an oportunity to learn. If you've elicited this strong of a responce from the Doc, it's because he feels you've posted information that could be harmful to someone. Rather than continue to debate him, cool off for a while and maybe you'll understand what Dr. Scally is trying to say.

I appreciate the effort you put into your post, but one of the things I like about Meso is broscience is frowned upon. I think Dr. Scally feels the same.

 

[Pericles]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Juced,

Like I said earlier, there is some good material in your post (helped by your re-thinking halflifes/time from last injection to time when Serm pct will work).

However, there is a lot of emerging literature that strongly suggests that regular and prolonged use of AIs' like letro and dex create problems. Larry Lipshultz (considered a top expert on TRT) no longer prescribes AIs, he has everyone on Nolva. Don't underestimate Nolvas' ability to displace estrogen, while AIs shut it down completely at the molecular level. I use fairly large amounts of AIs' when running my end of cycle HCG, but the rest of the time I use very tiny amounts of AI (.5 mgs of Letro e3d) and take 10 mgs of Nolva the other 2 days.

The castle analogy is, IMO, an excellent way to look at the issue.

Also, Doc Scally was doing trt type work, and treating steroid users for a long, long time. He has a ton of "real world experience."

I like you, but agree that your tirade against the good doc is a bit excessive (I also agree that he may have been a bit cranky as well, lol).

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

To be clear, your choice between an AI or SERM (choose only one) for gyno prevention is an AI, correct? And, you agree with the AI dose? That is the argument.

You are redefining the contention of the OP in this post to try and suit it to support your objective. No one , anywhere I read, said an AI is better than a serm at gyno prevention or treatment. E2 levels need to be managed on cycle, if you can successfully do so with an ai it will prevent gyno. How many people are getting gyno with e2 levels at 27?. Seriously Dr? Ai's and serms both have a useful place in my opinion. If you can mange e2 with an ai- it will prevent gyno. I have a serm on hand at all times but no way am i gonna take it on cycle , in addition to an ai., if it isnt needed. Thats just foolish. Now if for some some reason I was extremely gyno prone. I would use either exemestane and nolva or better yet ralox and any ai in conjunction while on cycle.

 

[Millard]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

You are redefining the contention of the OP in this post to try and suit it to support your objective. No one , anywhere I read, said an AI is better than a serm at gyno prevention or treatment. E2 levels need to be managed on cycle, if you can successfully do so with an ai it will prevent gyno.

I think that was the exact question that is being debated.

Dr. Scally stated SERM more effective at preventing gyno.

Juced said AI was more effective.

E2 management is another question entirely.

The question 'can AIs can help prevent gyno?' is not the same question as 'which is most effective?'

The castle analogy is great.

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I think that was the exact question that is being debated.

Dr. Scally stated SERM more effective at preventing gyno.

Juced said AI was more effective.

E2 management is another question entirely.

The question 'can AIs can help prevent gyno?' is not the same question as 'which is most effective?'

No one contended one was more effective than the other except Dr Scally. The OP said ai use on cycle is effective (effective- not more effective) at gyno prevention. Of course if you can keep e 2 manged with an ai it is effective at gyno prevention That shouldnt even be a discussion. The fact it still is by someone as knowledgeable as Dr Scally is getting a bit silly imo. A serm will directly prevent gyno , an ai indirectly. Who the hell want to take both if you dont have too and since you should manage estrogen for other reason by using an ai on cycle (IMO) why the hell use a serm if you dont need too? Thats ridiculous.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

You are redefining the contention of the OP in this post to try and suit it to support your objective. No one , anywhere I read, said an AI is better than a serm at gyno prevention or treatment. E2 levels need to be managed on cycle, if you can successfully do so with an ai it will prevent gyno. How many people are getting gyno with e2 levels at 27?. Seriously Dr? Ai's and serms both have a useful place in my opinion. If you can mange e2 with an ai- it will prevent gyno. I have a serm on hand at all times but no way am i gonna take it on cycle , in addition to an ai., if it isnt needed. Thats just foolish. Now if for some some reason I was extremely gyno prone. I would use either exemestane and nolva or better yet ralox and any ai in conjunction while on cycle.

I think that was the exact question that is being debated.

Dr. Scally stated SERM more effective at preventing gyno.

Juced said AI was more effective.

E2 management is another question entirely.

The question 'can AIs can help prevent gyno?' is not the same question as 'which is most effective?'

The castle analogy is great.

The easy answer for those unable to read is the name of the thread: "A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read." The argument has nothing to do with managing E2 levels.

 

[lifterjaydawg]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Castle analogy is backwards. You can take a substance that guards al the doors when it comes to e2 (ai) or you can take one that guards only one (serm). If if was gonna be an accurate anaology thats what it should say. Or do we simply throw more drugs in the mix unnecessarily because even though one will prevent gyno the other will do it better - so lets just use both. Doesnt sound prudent to me.

 

[Millard]

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Its prudent to manage estrogen with an ai on cycle for several reasons, gyno prevention is just one To imply or insinuate an ai cannot be used effectively in the vast majority of aas users in the prevention of gyno is simply ridiculous, all due respect..

If you can mange e2 with an ai- it will prevent gyno. I have a serm on hand at all times but no way am i gonna take it on cycle , in addition to an ai., if it isnt needed.

The question of E2 management is a great one. And I think it is worthy of discussion.

I think you agree that SERM is better than AI at "preventing" gyno by the statement that you keep it on hand if the AI doesn't stop it.

So, I'm confused at to why we don't just move on.