A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT

Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

You have two thread that are total and complete CRAP. It will be revealing as you display your ignorance in the coming days. In your imaginary AAS world, hCG is not needed; half-life can be ignored; science is bogus; "new school," whatever that is, is the rule; liver harm is only by 17 alkylation, ...

I do not have the time to keep up with your errors, so Meso readers beware. This guy is definitely "Juced," alright. ROTFLMFAOPIMP
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Doesn't a SERM have benefits, that
an AI doesn't?..

Allowing the body, its needed estrogen?

Even stimulating some E receptors..
Acting as an agonist in some receptors
like Nolva does, in the liver?..

I allow estrogen to flow freely,
so I really wouldn't know..
Then again, I don't use aromatising gear
much, so... I really wouldn't know :p

I don't think he means crashing your estrogen with high doses of an AI or using an AI off cycle I am pretty sure he means a low dose to keep estrogen levels NORMAL DURING cycle and that would = having what body needs in the estro DPT.
I agree with you on having estrogen low being bad, but so is having it super high....
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I hate to say it but I agree with Juced on the idea of controlling the estrogen and avoiding the gyno... over using a SERM the whole cycle or waiting for gyno then using a SERM.
That is an old way of doing things in my opinion and we know better now.
I don't need to see a study on it to see the logic and the real world results with AI vs. SERM for gyno.
Also other issues come from having high estrogen levels so I see more reason to use an AI over a SERM for Gyno control ON CYCLE.

Off cycle I got no idea but a SERM seems to make more sense for gyno at that point since its too late to control the issue that brought on the gyno.


How much E2 control do you think you can achieve with an AI while ON cycle (TE 500 MG/WK)? What dose AI do you think you would need? Is any AI dose sufficient to bring E2 to a level that gyno is not a concern? It is counter intuitive, thus the reason for the castle analogy. I have treated this very problem. And, the solution was a SERM first. An AI will NOT prevent gyno.
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I don't think he means crashing your estrogen with high doses of an AI or using an AI off cycle I am pretty sure he means a low dose to keep estrogen levels NORMAL DURING cycle and that would = having what body needs in the estro DPT.
I agree with you on having estrogen low being bad, but so is having it super high....

I just remember reading that even 1mg of Adex
can lower E levels by 80%...

I also read that Nolva can raise HDL,
cause it gives the liver the needed estrogen, for this...

I wasn't calling anyone out, I was seriously asking legitimately

Hard to believe, I wasn't trying to start shit, isn't it? :)
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I don't think he means crashing your estrogen with high doses of an AI or using an AI off cycle I am pretty sure he means a low dose to keep estrogen levels NORMAL DURING cycle and that would = having what body needs in the estro DPT.
I agree with you on having estrogen low being bad, but so is having it super high....


The OP was to prevent gyno with an AI. An AI alone will NOT prevent gyno. Did you read the AI dose in the face of TE 500 MG. Really.
 
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Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Hey Doc,I was thinking of you, when
I was watching this just now ...

Code:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=8rh6qqsmxNs&feature=fvwp

He is the best! Check out the General forum. I have posted many of his vids.
Did you read my post first [FOS]? https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/864761
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs]George Carlin Stupid People - YouTube[/ame]
 
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Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

He reminds me of my father,
only George was funnier
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I dunno Im of the opinion that an AI on cycle is probably the single best advancement in ancillary use since I have been in this game. Of course if you maintain estrogen levels at the lower end of clinical range (i prefer 25-30) you are preventing gyno-directly or indirectly -you are. Cant really see any possible.argument there. You are also assisting in the prevention of elevated estrogen on the prostate along with the numerous other health risks associated with elevated estrogen in males. Manage estrogen on cycle with an AI., Tamoxifen and clomiphene for pct. Raloxifene for gyno treatement. I dunno - my thoughts.
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

If your managing E with an AI,
then what will Tamoxifen and Clomiphene do, for pct?
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I dunno Im of the opinion that an AI on cycle is probably the single best advancement in ancillary use since I have been in this game. Of course if you maintain estrogen levels at the lower end of clinical range (i prefer 25-30) you are preventing gyno-directly or indirectly -you are. Cant really see any possible.argument there. You are also assisting in the prevention of elevated estrogen on the prostate along with the numerous other health risks associated with elevated estrogen in males. Manage estrogen on cycle with an AI., Tamoxifen and clomiphene for pct. Raloxifene for gyno treatement. I dunno - my thoughts.


Go for it! AIs do not prevent gyno while on cycle. I have had many cases of gyno where this strategy was used. I am not against an AI. I am wholly against the idea it will prevent gyno. AIs are not new. They have been around for decades.
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

If your managing E with an AI,
then what will Tamoxifen and Clomiphene do, for pct?

Oh for that answer you can simply read some of Dr Scally posts. He explains it better than anyone Ive seen. Guay did start the march though but I tend to agree with Dr Scallys Clomid/nolva serm based pct as opposed to the clomid alone in Guyas reseach (at least that Im familair with).
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Go for it! AIs do not prevent gyno while on cycle. I have had many cases of gyno where this strategy was used. I am not against an AI. I am wholly against the idea it will prevent gyno. AIs are not new. They have been around for decades.

So in the absence of elevated estrogen you have seen gyno ? As in thats a common occurrence??
Certainly not ...and if it did estrogen was NOT being managed by an AI. If you can show me gyno in the abscence of elevated estrogen as something common Id be amazed. In fact Id be amazed if you showed it in the smallest % of gyno cases.
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Oh for that answer you can simply read some of Dr Scally posts. He explains it better than anyone Ive seen.

I don't think he said to manage E with an AI..

Maybe I didn't see it.
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

So in the absence of elevated estrogen you have seen gyno ? As in thats a common occurrence??
Certainly not ...and if it did estrogen was NOT being managed by an AI. If you can show me gyno in the abscence of elevated estrogen as something common Id be amazed. In fact Id be amazed if you showed it in the smallest % of gyno cases.

So you know, the initiating factor for gyno is incompletely known. Theory include E2 as well as T:E2. There are others. Also, you might wish to think of the castle analogy. I accept you challenge!!! Are you sure you want this challenge?
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

I don't think he means crashing your estrogen with high doses of an AI or using an AI off cycle I am pretty sure he means a low dose to keep estrogen levels NORMAL DURING cycle and that would = having what body needs in the estro DPT.
I agree with you on having estrogen low being bad, but so is having it super high....


Did you read the OP. The proposed AI use is equally a joke. This is another point showing he knows jack squat, i.e., FOS.

1#
Wk1-12 500mg teste ew
Wk1-14 0.6mg e3d (2X a week) Letro
Wk13-17 PCT Clomid 50mg ed

Again, it is hard to even get past the first example. The normal dose of Letrozole is 2.5 MG QD. [Recall the dose for later.] In his proposed use, the dose is ~25% TWICE PER WEEK for a total WEEKLY dose of 1.2 MG. If one took 2.5 MG QD, the total WEEKLY dose is 17.5 MG. Further, TE 500 MG/WEEK is being used.

Does anyone have an idea what happens under normal conditions? Would you believe that use of 2.5 MG QD will reduce E2 by ~50%. Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition This is ~15X the dose proposed.

And, that is UNDER eugonadal testosterone levels, NOT levels that will easily, very easily, approach 5,000-7,000 ng/dL. Or ~10 X normal testosterone levels. The E2 level with the proposed Letrozole use will still be elevated. They would be more elevated with TE 500 MG/WEEK.


T’Sjoen GG, Giagulli VA, Delva H, Crabbe P, De Bacquer D, Kaufman J-M. Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2005;90(10):5717-22. Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition

Context: Aging in men is associated with a decline in serum testosterone (T) levels.Objective: Our objective was to assess whether decreased T in aging might result from increased estradiol (E2) negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion.

Design and Setting: We conducted a comparative intervention study (2004) in the Outpatient Endocrinology Clinic, Ghent University Hospital.

Participants: Participants included healthy young and elderly men (n = 10 vs. 10).Interventions: We used placebo and letrozole (2.5 mg/d) for 28 d, separated by 2 wk washout.

Main Outcome Measures: We assessed changes in serum levels of free E2, LH, and FSH, free T, SHBG, and gonadotropins response to an iv 2.5-mcg GnRH bolus.

Results: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001). In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and T (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant). Under letrozole, peak LH response to GnRH was 152 and 52% increase from baseline in young and older men, respectively (P = 0.01).

Conclusions: Aromatase inhibition markedly increased basal LH and T levels and the LH response to GnRH in both young and elderly men. The observation of similar to greater LH responses in the young compared with the elderly does not support the hypothesis that increased restraining of LH secretion by endogenous estrogens is instrumental in age-related decline of Leydig cell function.
 
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Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

Did you read the OP. The proposed AI use is equally a joke. This is another point showing he knows jack squat, i.e., FOS.



Again, it is hard to even get past the first example. The normal dose of Letrozole is 2.5 MG QD.
[Recall the dose for later.] In his proposed use, the dose is ~25% TWICE PER WEEK for a total WEEKLY dose of 1.2 MG. If one took 2.5 MG QD, the total WEEKLY dose is 17.5 MG. Further, TE 500 MG/WEEK is being used.

Does anyone have an idea what happens under normal conditions? Would you believe that use of 2.5 MG QD will reduce E2 by ~50%. Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition This is ~15X the dose proposed.

And, that is UNDER eugonadal testosterone levels, NOT levels that will easily, very easily, approach 5,000-7,000 ng/dL. Or ~10 X normal testosterone levels. The E2 level with the proposed Letrozole use will still be elevated. They would be more elevated with TE 500 MG/WEEK.


T’Sjoen GG, Giagulli VA, Delva H, Crabbe P, De Bacquer D, Kaufman J-M. Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2005;90(10):5717-22. Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition

Context: Aging in men is associated with a decline in serum testosterone (T) levels.Objective: Our objective was to assess whether decreased T in aging might result from increased estradiol (E2) negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion.

Design and Setting: We conducted a comparative intervention study (2004) in the Outpatient Endocrinology Clinic, Ghent University Hospital.

Participants: Participants included healthy young and elderly men (n = 10 vs. 10).Interventions: We used placebo and letrozole (2.5 mg/d) for 28 d, separated by 2 wk washout.

Main Outcome Measures: We assessed changes in serum levels of free E2, LH, and FSH, free T, SHBG, and gonadotropins response to an iv 2.5-mcg GnRH bolus.

Results: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001). In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and T (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant). Under letrozole, peak LH response to GnRH was 152 and 52% increase from baseline in young and older men, respectively (P = 0.01).

Conclusions: Aromatase inhibition markedly increased basal LH and T levels and the LH response to GnRH in both young and elderly men. The observation of similar to greater LH responses in the young compared with the elderly does not support the hypothesis that increased restraining of LH secretion by endogenous estrogens is instrumental in age-related decline of Leydig cell function.


This is where EXP comes in and studies go out.
I would NEVER EVER tell ANYONE to take 2.5mg ed or eod.... why? because it IS TOO MUCH! This is where alot of complaints come with letro use, using too much.
ok lets find a study on Anadrol and show that 100-150mg ed for months on end is the way to do it becaus ethe study was done like that....
Look you got science.. ok ill give you that and many good reads.. but you are either lacking exp with it in bbing terms ON cycle or are just hard headed to being wrong or maybe having out dated info..

I was not mean to you but you attack me and my post , why?

If you do not agree that is fine.

I KNOW 0.25mg eod works and have done so many times myself and have seen others blood work on varying amounts of Letro.
of COURSE you find studies on that type of dose, but that is not always applicable to our uses of it on cycle.

This just made me double think how much I thought you knew...

Dude are you just having a bad day? 2.5mg ed because a study says so? book smarts is fine... but you need a combo of others to function...

Don't call me and my thoughts BULL SHIT when some of your thinking is and I am sure others would agree on this point.
Now i know why you are so hostile from your first post, I threaten your way of thinking and to be wrong means death to your ego or sense of "self".. it doesnt need to be...
I dont post up and attack you on your threads that I dont agree. many i do learn. but you DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING and this clearly shows it.

I am not looking for bad blood BTW...
 
Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

:popcorn:

I can say that I have been doing a TON of research since this "conversation" has started, and there are valid points on both sides...

Edit: With that said, I know from experience (tests) what my body does, and does not like...Everyone is going to be different to a point, and each individual will have to do their own research and tests to see what does, and does not work for them...
 
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Re: A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read

:popcorn:

I can say that I have been doing a TON of research since this "conversation" has started, and there are valid points on both sides...

Yeah I love the arguments, I just wish they were more civil....

God I sound like I need a fucking AI.

There we go....F'bomb...I feel masculine again.:popcorn:
 
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