Adjusting T levels and the right estradiol test question

[friendlymachine]

I read the sticky from Dr. Marianco and T:E2 levels and I have a couple of questions. I currently take 200 mg T split into two doses per week. I also take 375 iu of HCG and have just lowered mt dex to .125 mg 2x per week. I have never been given a sensitive estradiol test and I always see that recommended here on the board. How much of a difference does it make?

My T levels on last two test were: 920 and 1149. The second number was a little wonky because it was taken a day earlier than usual. e2 was 47 on the first and 40 on the second. i have low body fat. The lower E2 on second was probably due to low dose arimidex. As a note, my libido was not great on Androgel with T of about 600 and E2 of 30. All previous blood work showed thyroid, etc. all OK.

I feel like I'm slowly starting to dial things in as I have more consistent morning erections after a long absence when on Androgel. But libido isn't really there. During the day, I rarely feel horny and need ED meds for sex. I'm 40 btw. The ED meds work, but I'd like to have that lusty feeling back.

So, can anyone speak to this libido issue? My T:E2 ratio at last measure was 27. That's supposed to be about right from what I understand.

And not to go off on a complete tangent, but I felt my best when doing the above protocol, but minus the dex but taking 100mg of zinc per day. Too much, so I've been told, yet I felt pretty good. Did that for 3 weeks before easing off due to overdose concerns.

Any suggestions? Are these estradiol numbers useful in helping me tune things? Do rich guys who can afford to have constant testing done ever get tuned up?! This is taking FOREVER to get this right! And if I dial back the T, will I have a crash? Any advice much appreciated. Sorry for the rambling post, but I've started to clue in on how complex this is.

 

[JanSz]

I read the sticky from Dr. Marianco and T:E2 levels and I have a couple of questions. I currently take 200 mg T split into two doses per week. I also take 375 iu of HCG and have just lowered mt dex to .125 mg 2x per week. I have never been given a sensitive estradiol test and I always see that recommended here on the board. How much of a difference does it make?

My T levels on last two test were: 920 and 1149. The second number was a little wonky because it was taken a day earlier than usual. e2 was 47 on the first and 40 on the second. i have low body fat. The lower E2 on second was probably due to low dose arimidex. As a note, my libido was not great on Androgel with T of about 600 and E2 of 30. All previous blood work showed thyroid, etc. all OK.

I feel like I'm slowly starting to dial things in as I have more consistent morning erections after a long absence when on Androgel. But libido isn't really there. During the day, I rarely feel horny and need ED meds for sex. I'm 40 btw. The ED meds work, but I'd like to have that lusty feeling back.

So, can anyone speak to this libido issue? My T:E2 ratio at last measure was 27. That's supposed to be about right from what I understand.

And not to go off on a complete tangent, but I felt my best when doing the above protocol, but minus the dex but taking 100mg of zinc per day. Too much, so I've been told, yet I felt pretty good. Did that for 3 weeks before easing off due to overdose concerns.

Any suggestions? Are these estradiol numbers useful in helping me tune things? Do rich guys who can afford to have constant testing done ever get tuned up?! This is taking FOREVER to get this right! And if I dial back the T, will I have a crash? Any advice much appreciated. Sorry for the rambling post, but I've started to clue in on how complex this is.

On one hand it is indeed complex problem.
But if you keep attention (and have half decent genes) you can learn about ways of taking care of your health that are much better than what you can get from health clinics for $10000.
If you have a bad genes, they will take your $10k and give you nothing for it anyhow.
----------------------
There is more to health than proper testosterone levels.
I do every 1-1.5 years this list of blood tests, post #44 here:
https://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

there is few more tests after that.
I am 69yo.

You may want to lower your 200mg/week to someplace like 175mg/week
but do shots every day.
One day 0.25cc=25units Test
the next day 375iu HCG

use these needles, shoot (with one hand) anywhere, single push with needle, no checking for blood:

http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant...ct_Code=4724290&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

Draw test with the same needle. Pull plunger back to 30 units with one move.
Hold vial+ syringe in one hand, walk around the house for a 1.5 minutes, syringe will be full.
================================================
48 hrs after T-shot
after 9-12 hrs of fast go to Quest Diagnostics and have a blood draw.
Drink 12oz of pure water 2hrs before draw.
These tests:

DHEA sulfate
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Dihydrotestosterone (204X)
================================================

Goals:
DHEAS(500-640)
E2(25-29)
DHT(60-90)
BAT(460-575)
BAT=BioAvailableTestosterne
=================================================

Note, it takes me 400mg/day of DHEA pills to get there. The usual 25-50mg will not cut it.

Frequent T&hcg shots are conducing to keeping e2 in the right place
If you need to make corrections to E2 use Liquidex, sold by this boards sponsor
Use 3/10cc insuline syringe, cut out the whole needle
Use for accurate EOD dispensig of Liquidex.

I am on a system that I am describing to you.
After about a year I got to a point that I do not need Liquidex.
Lets hope that it will last, adjusting E2 is a hopeless bi*tch
=================================================

If zinc made a big difference..
zinc is a one of thyroid supporting minerals.
consider Adrenals/thyroid testing.
All tests that you may need are on the above list, post #44.
If you plan on testing ask again if you have questions.

/

 

[friendlymachine]

On one hand it is indeed complex problem.
But if you keep attention (and have half decent genes) you can learn about ways of taking care of your health that are much better than what you can get from health clinics for $10000.
If you have a bad genes, they will take your $10k and give you nothing for it anyhow.
----------------------
There is more to health than proper testosterone levels.
I do every 1-1.5 years this list of blood tests, post #44 here:
https://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

there is few more tests after that.
I am 69yo.

You may want to lower your 200mg/week to someplace like 175mg/week
but do shots every day.
One day 0.25cc=25units Test
the next day 375iu HCG

use these needles, shoot (with one hand) anywhere, single push with needle, no checking for blood:

http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant...ct_Code=4724290&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

Draw test with the same needle. Pull plunger back to 30 units with one move.
Hold vial+ syringe in one hand, walk around the house for a 1.5 minutes, syringe will be full.
================================================
48 hrs after T-shot
after 9-12 hrs of fast go to Quest Diagnostics and have a blood draw.
Drink 12oz of pure water 2hrs before draw.
These tests:

DHEA sulfate
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Dihydrotestosterone (204X)
================================================

Goals:
DHEAS(500-640)
E2(25-29)
DHT(60-90)
BAT(460-575)
BAT=BioAvailableTestosterne
=================================================

Note, it takes me 400mg/day of DHEA pills to get there. The usual 25-50mg will not cut it.

Frequent T&hcg shots are conducing to keeping e2 in the right place
If you need to make corrections to E2 use Liquidex, sold by this boards sponsor
Use 3/10cc insuline syringe, cut out the whole needle
Use for accurate EOD dispensig of Liquidex.

I am on a system that I am describing to you.
After about a year I got to a point that I do not need Liquidex.
Lets hope that it will last, adjusting E2 is a hopeless bi*tch
=================================================

If zinc made a big difference..
zinc is a one of thyroid supporting minerals.
consider Adrenals/thyroid testing.
All tests that you may need are on the above list, post #44.
If you plan on testing ask again if you have questions.

/

Ok, are you saying to shoot the test with insulin needles? Every day? That would probably get my e2 problem solved entirely. I really have a hard time tuning it being very lean, but 200mg still puts it too high and then a tiny amount of dex takes it too low.

Does anybody else do this? I thought the T needed to be IM. If not so deep, will that mess with e2? I guess i could inject into my leg - virtually no fat on it. Please clarify and if anyone else has experience with this I'd love to hear it. how did you come across this protocol? You have my interest, but I'm curious if an MD is behind it or just trial and error on your part. Thanks for any reply you can offer - interesting idea.

 

[JanSz]

Ok, are you saying to shoot the test with insulin needles? Every day? That would probably get my e2 problem solved entirely. I really have a hard time tuning it being very lean, but 200mg still puts it too high and then a tiny amount of dex takes it too low.

Does anybody else do this? I thought the T needed to be IM. If not so deep, will that mess with e2? I guess i could inject into my leg - virtually no fat on it. Please clarify and if anyone else has experience with this I'd love to hear it. how did you come across this protocol? You have my interest, but I'm curious if an MD is behind it or just trial and error on your part. Thanks for any reply you can offer - interesting idea.

I am not a doctor.
I use
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings
for the last two years.
I inject T & HCG on alternate days.
I inject with one hand, everywhere in the body, needle about 30-90degrees to the skin surface.
Blood draw 48hrs after T-shot
results consistent from one test to other.
My doctor have not given me any specific instruction about shots, but have no problem with my way of doing it.
What counts are test resuts.

Get in touch with KSman, at one time he was using daily T-shots.
KSman (IFAIK) spends lots of his time on T-nation and sometime on AM board.

I am thinking how to adapt insuline Pen to T & hcg shots.
Some of them have a thinner and shorter needle than the one (above) that I am using.
I have seen instructions for insuline users, shoot straight thru shirt, no acochol swabs, multiple uses of same needle.
Insuline users inject 2x or more/day.
.........................

Previous to T-shots, I was using Androgel almost 3 years.
transdermal is applied daily. rarely anybody have e2 problems while on transdermals.
DHT is another story.
Most transdermals have a short half-life.
Quickly up, quickly down. There is few people that have to do transdermals 2x/day (when very low SHBG or hypermetabolizers).
Test, enanthate or cypionate have a longer half-life than transdermals, but not long enough to justify weekly or bi-weekly injections.
E2D should work, if not, go for daily shots. If you have to, better do both T&hcg every day.
..........................
.

 

[friendlymachine]

Ok, well, this seems worthy of an experiment. I'm going to try doing 25mg T cyp per day using insulin needles at 90 degrees into my legs. A 1/2" needle will definitely hit muscle in my case. That's 175 mg per week, a 25mg per week reduction from current level. I'll do my evening HCG injections Sunday and Wednesday nights. I'll eliminate the arimidex and see what happens. I think I'll keep a log on this board and report my experience along with any blood tests - give back for the advice others have given.

I won't do blood tests for at least a month to let things settle. if i start feeling really terrible, i may jump ship, but I have thought for a while that if I could avoid the big T spike, the e2 wouldn't be a problem in my case and I KNOW it is the fly in the ointment because of the way the dex or T sends my libido past the sweet spot. That's the perfect way to put my experience, wobbling back and forth around this good place where I'm feeling just right a couple days a week. And having a normal libido/sex life is what I think everyone on this board is after. After 4 years of this, man that is all I really want. I'm so much closer than in the past and MAYBE this'll do the trick.

We shall see.

I know a lot of guys are supplementing with 100mg T per week and 200mg is a lot, and yet my T is only 920...high end, but I'd have thought much higher prior to starting. Everyone is different, I guess. The HCG is really for the other hormones, testicle size benefit as i am primary. I'll do my first injection Sunday morning, 25 mg and then post.

If anyone has other info/experiences they'd like to share, please do. It amazes me (and I really appreciate) the things guys share on this board that they'd never talk about face to face.

 

[JanSz]

One of KSman posts (post # 152)

https://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/52927-subcutaneous-testosterone-injections-6.html#post1593873

in case you want talk to him.
Guy knows his stuff.
.

 

[JimRat]

My MD prescribed subQ T shots. They're as easy as it gets....

 

[friendlymachine]

My MD prescribed subQ T shots. They're as easy as it gets....

How do you FEEL? What's your experience regarding e2? That's the thing I've heard Crisler voice concern about Subq...

 

[JanSz]

Ok, well, this seems worthy of an experiment. I'm going to try doing 25mg T cyp per day using insulin needles at 90 degrees into my legs. A 1/2" needle will definitely hit muscle in my case. That's 175 mg per week, a 25mg per week reduction from current level. I'll do my evening HCG injections Sunday and Wednesday nights. I'll eliminate the arimidex and see what happens. I think I'll keep a log on this board and report my experience along with any blood tests - give back for the advice others have given.

I won't do blood tests for at least a month to let things settle. if i start feeling really terrible, i may jump ship, but I have thought for a while that if I could avoid the big T spike, the e2 wouldn't be a problem in my case and I KNOW it is the fly in the ointment because of the way the dex or T sends my libido past the sweet spot. That's the perfect way to put my experience, wobbling back and forth around this good place where I'm feeling just right a couple days a week. And having a normal libido/sex life is what I think everyone on this board is after. After 4 years of this, man that is all I really want. I'm so much closer than in the past and MAYBE this'll do the trick.

We shall see.

I know a lot of guys are supplementing with 100mg T per week and 200mg is a lot, and yet my T is only 920...high end, but I'd have thought much higher prior to starting. Everyone is different, I guess. The HCG is really for the other hormones, testicle size benefit as i am primary. I'll do my first injection Sunday morning, 25 mg and then post.

If anyone has other info/experiences they'd like to share, please do. It amazes me (and I really appreciate) the things guys share on this board that they'd never talk about face to face.

If you have, post all your blood tests.
Analyte name, value, units, range, name of laboratory.

Just to play safe (E2 vise)
use only one hand when doing shots (you definitely do not want to raise skin and shoot just under it)
go close to 90degree
do not use fat area around navel
do blood test 2 months or more after starting this project.
do not use 1/2"long needle, use the (Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle)
----------------------------------------------------
T=920 on 200mg/week may indicate
hypermetabolism, low SHBG or both
----------------------------------------------------
375 iu of HCG twice a week may not be enough, (but it should not raise your E2 either)
----------------------------------------------------
I am not always catching all posts, if you post question to me and I am not answering, PM me.
----------------------------------------------------
.
.

 

[JanSz]

.
On another thread you are saying that using 10grams Androgel you got
TT=600------(You may need to do good checkup on your Adrenals/thyroid
E2=30--------(that is possibly best that you can hope for when on daily shots, but time will tell)
/
/
Make sure that on the next blood test your
DHEAs(500-640)

./

 

[friendlymachine]

.
On another thread you are saying that using 10grams Androgel you got
TT=600------(You may need to do good checkup on your Adrenals/thyroid
E2=30--------(that is possibly best that you can hope for when on daily shots, but time will tell)
/
/
Make sure that on the next blood test your
DHEAs(500-640)

./

Thanks, JanSz. I will get the tests you advocate in about 6 weeks. I have started the experiment of daily T shots which I discuss in another thread. I am using the 1/2" needles because I have a ton of them around for the HCG injections. Thanks for your advice! I've printed the tests you recommend for my next doctor's visit.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Lamen 's terms
1. EOD of HCG and T alternating helps controls some e2 in many indivduals.
2. If your T levels are that of a 25-30 so must your dhea levels
3. Rule out other imbalances insulin, thyroid, adrenals, neurotransmitters
4. Get proper evaluation of nutrients in the proper ratio
5. Make sure digestion is optimal -leaky gut, dybiosis, ect
6. balance out the liver
7. Work on lifestyle and stress management techniques, and most of all proper sleep.
8. T/e ratio 30-40 is optimal most 25 year old 600-700 with ultrasenstivie e2 (7-15) optimal range.( FInally figure this one out after a year) with numerous testing of models 20-25 year old catagory..

 

[JanSz]

Thanks, JanSz. I will get the tests you advocate in about 6 weeks. I have started the experiment of daily T shots which I discuss in another thread. I am using the 1/2" needles because I have a ton of them around for the HCG injections. Thanks for your advice! I've printed the tests you recommend for my next doctor's visit.

Whatewer tests you have available now, print them here, we may figure some head start for you.
Or post link to them if you already posted them.
If possible, it is good idea to stay on one thread or at least frequently crossreference if you have more than one.
.
/

 

[jinxie1]

If you have, post all your blood tests.
Analyte name, value, units, range, name of laboratory.

Just to play safe (E2 vise)
use only one hand when doing shots (you definitely do not want to raise skin and shoot just under it)
go close to 90degree
do not use fat area around navel
do blood test 2 months or more after starting this project.
do not use 1/2"long needle, use the (Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle)
----------------------------------------------------
T=920 on 200mg/week may indicate
hypermetabolism, low SHBG or both
----------------------------------------------------
375 iu of HCG twice a week may not be enough, (but it should not raise your E2 either)
----------------------------------------------------
I am not always catching all posts, if you post question to me and I am not answering, PM me.
----------------------------------------------------
.
.

Jan, I dont understand your sub-q directions. I thought you should pinch the fat around the navel, and come in at around 45 degress, no?

Friendlymaching, I don't believe 1/2 inch is going to get you into the muscle, even on the leg. Maybe partly, but not entirely. I think you need 1 inch. In any event, it's my understanding that if you are shooting daily, you want to go sub-q into the fat, and that aromatizaton should not be an issue with a low daily dose.

Good luck.

 

[JimRat]

How do you FEEL? What's your experience regarding e2? That's the thing I've heard Crisler voice concern about Subq...

Friendly, I was just letting you know that some MDs are confident enough to prescribe the subQ T. It seems to be gaining more acceptance. As far as I go, I'm only one week in (doing a combo of T and HCG shots). I'm starting low (250 IU HCG 3x/week--T Cyp 40 mgs 2x/week). I will be better able to assess where I stand in a few weeks.

To be honest, I'm not a good example as I have competing issues: hypothyroidism, lyme disease, and possibly some level of adrenal fatigue. As a result, nothing makes me feel too well right now but I'm trying everything I can think of... I'll try to follow up on any E2 issues that arise.

 

[friendlymachine]

Whatewer tests you have available now, print them here, we may figure some head start for you.
Or post link to them if you already posted them.
If possible, it is good idea to stay on one thread or at least frequently crossreference if you have more than one.
.
/

I have never had some key tests done as I'm now finding out...no DHEA for example or DHT.

My thyroid tests were:
T4: 9.2 ref range 4.5 - 12.5
TSH High Sensitivity: 0.64 ref range 0.45 - 4.5

Prolactin 7.8 ref range 2.5 - 17.0

My E2 on Androgel was 30, recently 47 and 40 on last two tests respectively.

My intial T level was 220 at the time of being diagnosed. 5g of Androgel put it at 453 and about 600 at 10g. The 30 e2 was at 10g Androgel.

All other tests like blood lipids and CBC came back normal.

When i get me next tests done, I'll ask that those you suggested be included. Thanks again for your helpful advice.

 

[friendlymachine]

Lamen 's terms
1. EOD of HCG and T alternating helps controls some e2 in many indivduals.
2. If your T levels are that of a 25-30 so must your dhea levels
3. Rule out other imbalances insulin, thyroid, adrenals, neurotransmitters
4. Get proper evaluation of nutrients in the proper ratio
5. Make sure digestion is optimal -leaky gut, dybiosis, ect
6. balance out the liver
7. Work on lifestyle and stress management techniques, and most of all proper sleep.
8. T/e ratio 30-40 is optimal most 25 year old 600-700 with ultrasenstivie e2 (7-15) optimal range.( FInally figure this one out after a year) with numerous testing of models 20-25 year old catagory..

I don't understand #2. Can you elaborate?

 

[friendlymachine]

Jan, I dont understand your sub-q directions. I thought you should pinch the fat around the navel, and come in at around 45 degress, no?

Friendlymaching, I don't believe 1/2 inch is going to get you into the muscle, even on the leg. Maybe partly, but not entirely. I think you need 1 inch. In any event, it's my understanding that if you are shooting daily, you want to go sub-q into the fat, and that aromatizaton should not be an issue with a low daily dose.

Good luck.

Thanks, Jinxie. I am pretty certain I'm in muscle. I have very low levels of fat on my legs - can see some veins. The site I injected in was very firm and just had to be muscle. I'm not opposed to doing SubQ, I just saw that site on my leg and it looked easier to just go in at 90 degrees than to pinch the thin skin together. At any rate, the T is in there. We'll see what happens. I do the hCG in my abdomen, but I thought since JanSz had been injecting at various sites w/o problem, I'd try my leg. If things don't work, I'll try it the usual way.

I really appreciate all of the feedback. It does make me consider how I'm doing things.

 

[hardasnails1973]

I don't understand #2. Can you elaborate?

20-30 year old

 

[JanSz]

Jan, I dont understand your sub-q directions. I thought you should pinch the fat around the navel, and come in at around 45 degress, no?

Friendlymaching, I don't believe 1/2 inch is going to get you into the muscle, even on the leg. Maybe partly, but not entirely. I think you need 1 inch. In any event, it's my understanding that if you are shooting daily, you want to go sub-q into the fat, and that aromatizaton should not be an issue with a low daily dose.

Good luck.

From my previous post:

use only one hand when doing shots (you definitely do not want to raise skin and shoot just under it)