After many years of natty training I want to start my first cycle (pics and info in the thread)

[El Papacito]

Frist of all my stats:

I'm 32 years old, 178cm/5'10" tall and currently around 78-79kg/171-174lbs.

I've been training naturally for almost 10 years now, but I have to say that not much has happened in the last 5 years. I look more or less the same.



My plans:

Working out has helped me in so many aspects of life and has been very good for my human development. My goal this year is to get in the best shape of my life and do my first real cycle. Okey, I have to admit that I've already done a 5-6 week anavar only cycle at 20mg to test the waters (no problems or side effects).

I've researched the subject extensively, but I'd like to hear your opinion on my plans.

My goal isn't necessarily to aim for enormously huge gains, but rather a full, lean body without water retention.

This is what my current form looks like, I am currently on a diet. My goal is to reach real 10% body fat by the end of April/beginning of May and then to start with Testo only. I want to take as low as possible so I'm thinking of 250mg Testosterone Enanthate per week. I want to do a PCt and for the moment i don't want to blast and cruise/TRT.

Exact Plan:

- 250mg Test E per week, injected eod to avoid fluctuations in levels, so rounded up about 72mg per injection (will be hard to measure 100% accurately)
- Buy Clomifen, Tamoxifenfor PCT and in case of possible high Estrogen side effects Arimidex

- blood test with all important parameters before the cycle
- blood test with all important parameters after 4 weeks to see to see my hormone levels, whether estrogen is possibly too high and so on.

I have the following questions for you:

Length of the cycle: You read different things here, from 12 weeks, 16, 20 and so on, what would you recommend me? Please keep in mind that I am doing my first cycle over the summer and I can imagine that it is not so great to only cycle 12 weeks and do a PCT during the best time of the year. Would something speak against 20 weeks? So I could start my PCT at the end of September.

HCG: Does HCG make sense in my case during the cycle? Here you read different opinions, what do you say?

Enanthate or possibly propionate: As I said, my goal is to get/keep a lean shape. Would a daily injection of propionate be superior to a second daily injection of enanthate? I have no problem injecting myself daily.

Avoid bloat, water retention: Do you have any tips on how I can avoid bloat and water retention (if it occurs at all?) Controlling estrogen (if needed), eating clean and control kcal, controlling carbs and salt, drinking enough, anything else?

Thanks to all of you

 

[Mac11wildcat]

No need for EOD especially at that dose. But 250mg is hardly worth shutting down for. That's likely under ~2k total test, maybe even under 1500. If you're gonna go thru the procsss of shutdown I'd recommend 350-400 at a minimum. If you wanted to run a long cycle maybe starting at 250 and ramping up would work, but 250 straight is a waste IMO.

Longer cycles can be challenging for a number of reasons: recovering HPTA function, maintaining discipline over that long duration, keeping food and training progressing (the drugs don't do the work), etc

As a first timer no need to consider prop.

Steroids don't do a ton of heavy lifting in getting lean. In that circumstance they're primarily helping you retain tissue.

My advice is use your first cycle to grow with adequate caloric intake ramping with your growth. That doesn't mean be sloppy, but there's also no reason to expect you turn into a bloated mess just because you introduced test.

 

[HB_22]

I personally think 250mg wont do much. You will be disappointed and likely a lot sooner than later increase the dose anyway.

 

[Btcowboy]

Run Cyp as opposed to Enth, lots of people have issues with Enth. I dont but I am not you. And a big no to prop right now.

Pin 2x week Sun/Wed nit EOD

Each pin should be 250mg for 500 a week not 250 a week, I cruise on 250 week.

Run it for 16 weeks no issue with that carry over for the summer before PCT.

HCG helps with shrinkage and may make easier transition to PCT, I B&C so cant comment.

Have AI ready on hand but dont take if you dont need. Only real way to check is bloodwork. Example I ran 500 test 500 tren, var, and halo last prep and didnt need AI. But I have also run less gear and needed it just keep an eye on it.

 

[El Papacito]

No need for EOD especially at that dose. But 250mg is hardly worth shutting down for. That's likely under ~2k total test, maybe even under 1500. If you're gonna go thru the procsss of shutdown I'd recommend 350-400 at a minimum. If you wanted to run a long cycle maybe starting at 250 and ramping up would work, but 250 straight is a waste IMO.

Longer cycles can be challenging for a number of reasons: recovering HPTA function, maintaining discipline over that long duration, keeping food and training progressing (the drugs don't do the work), etc

As a first timer no need to consider prop.

Steroids don't do a ton of heavy lifting in getting lean. In that circumstance they're primarily helping you retain tissue.

My advice is use your first cycle to grow with adequate caloric intake ramping with your growth. That doesn't mean be sloppy, but there's also no reason to expect you turn into a bloated mess just because you introduced test.

I personally think 250mg wont do much. You will be disappointed and likely a lot sooner than later increase the dose anyway.

First, thanks for your answer. There are divided opinions about the dosage for the first cycle. For many experienced guys, 250mg is a joke i know, but for me it feels mentally more comfortable to slowly approach the topic of roids. I would like to see how I react on the lowest possible dosage and then possibly increase it.

 

[Rido]

First, thanks for your answer. There are divided opinions about the dosage for the first cycle. For many experienced guys, 250mg is a joke i know, but for me it feels mentally more comfortable to slowly approach the topic of roids. I would like to see how I react on the lowest possible dosage and then possibly increase it.

With your physique I think you are wasting your time with that low of a dose. Shutting down for 250? Thats barely above trt.(the ultra high side of TRT)


I am more conservative in reccomendations. I think 350-450 is better than 500.

If your goal is to be 10 percent. Maybe just run clen instead of AAS. You aren't far from it...

 

[MindlessWork]

More food and up the training for starters as you already have a pretty good base to build on. Lots of great advice given in this thread so consider them. Good luck on your growth goals!

 

[El Papacito]

With your physique I think you are wasting your time with that low of a dose. Shutting down for 250? Thats barely above trt.(the ultra high side of TRT)


I am more conservative in reccomendations. I think 350-450 is better than 500.

If your goal is to be 10 percent. Maybe just run clen instead of AAS. You aren't far from it...

Yes, I definitely want to start low and raise when I'm doing well and don't see any sides. It's just mentally more comfortable for me as a beginner.

 

[Btcowboy]

Yes, I definitely want to start low and raise when I'm doing well and don't see any sides. It's just mentally more comfortable for me as a beginner.

So everyone thats not a beginner like yourself has stated 250 a week is too low but you are still going to do 250 a week?

 

[Hesoprimaltho]

Yes, I definitely want to start low and raise when I'm doing well and don't see any sides. It's just mentally more comfortable for me as a beginner.

how long ago was this 20mg ed anavar only cycle that you did? Thats something absolutely no one that I know would recommend, and I assure you that you experienced more side effects from that than you will from 250mg test ew. you don't mind injecting ed? You will, trust that. I think you're going about it with the correct cautious mentality, but you came here for advice and you should take it from the unanimous group of folks providing it. 250mg ew will be a waste of your time and present potential complications for no benefit and shut you down. 250mg ew would be fine for someone else, but you provided pictures and information that removes you from that group.

 

[mass gain]

So everyone thats not a beginner like yourself has stated 250 a week is too low but you are still going to do 250 a week?

He can ramp it up like Mac suggested. Even when I was younger (21), I started at 200 mg enanthate a week and made a lot of progress. My next cycle was 250 mg sustanon a week and also did very well.

Think about that, my total test was likely as high as it would ever be naturally. My only reason for starting was due to an injury that zapped my leg strength and I was trying to get it back asap for competition. I got my strength back and then some but I was never able to overcome my injury to remain competitive in my sport.

@El Papacito take all of the advice here with a grain of salt. I feel like you are on the cautious side and that is not a bad thing. There is no one size fits all in this but there are a lot of people that prefer higher starting doses say closer to 500 mg per week. This doesn't mean it is right for you. Test on yourself and go from YOUR experience.

Just keep in mind that once you start it is very likely you will become one of the blast and cruise guys.

IMO don't even start if its not something you see yourself doing for an indefinite amount of time.

You don't need HCG unless you are worried about fertility while on. I personally don't even recommend PCT but rather a blast and cruise. If you choose PCT, just go with Nolva and Clomid.

If cruise after cycle, I would say 75 to 100 mg per week on cruise.

 

[El Papacito]

how long ago was this 20mg ed anavar only cycle that you did? Thats something absolutely no one that I know would recommend, and I assure you that you experienced more side effects from that than you will from 250mg test ew. you don't mind injecting ed? You will, trust that. I think you're going about it with the correct cautious mentality, but you came here for advice and you should take it from the unanimous group of folks providing it. 250mg ew will be a waste of your time and present potential complications for no benefit and shut you down. 250mg ew would be fine for someone else, but you provided pictures and information that removes you from that group.

I got the idea from videos by Dr Mike Israetel. And some testimonials from people who have done it. I will educate myself about the 'higher' dosages, thanks.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qyJd-Zc7Kw&t=394s


and this clip, starting from 08:19


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfVBlXuRGPA&t=1233s

Just keep in mind that once you start it is very likely you will become one of the blast and cruise guys.

IMO don't even start if its not something you see yourself doing for an indefinite amount of time.

You don't need HCG unless you are worried about fertility while on. I personally don't even recommend PCT but rather a blast and cruise. If you choose PCT, just go with Nolva and Clomid.

If cruise after cycle, I would say 75 to 100 mg per week on cruise.

Sooner or later in life I'm going to be on TRT anyway. The last time I measured my testosterone levels, I was right on the high end of the reference range. I just don't know if I should decide at 32 that I want to be dependent on testosterone for the rest of my life.

But yes, it could well be that I get along well with the cycle and sooner or later say to myself "half a year low dose cruise, half a year a little more".
I certainly don't plan on ending up too deep in roidmatter, nor do I think that will happen to me. I have no competitive goals and would have gotten into roids much, much sooner if I had been vulnerable before.

It's simply because nothing has improved to me natty for years, no matter what I do.

Thansk again to all you guys : )

 

[Hesoprimaltho]

I got the idea from videos by Dr Mike Israetel. And some testimonials from people who have done it. I will educate myself about the 'higher' dosages, thanks.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qyJd-Zc7Kw&t=394s


and this clip, starting from 08:19


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfVBlXuRGPA&t=1233s


Sooner or later in life I'm going to be on TRT anyway. The last time I measured my testosterone levels, I was right on the high end of the reference range. I just don't know if I should decide at 32 that I want to be dependent on testosterone for the rest of my life.

But yes, it could well be that I get along well with the cycle and sooner or later say to myself "half a year low dose cruise, half a year a little more".
I certainly don't plan on ending up too deep in roidmatter, nor do I think that will happen to me. I have no competitive goals and would have gotten into roids much, much sooner if I had been vulnerable before.

It's simply because nothing has improved to me natty for years, no matter what I do.

Thansk again to all you guys : )

from a harm reduction perspective i agree w/ virtually all that he said, but the idea of ever taking an oral only cycle, ANY oral, is ludicrous. Its not worth the shut down, especially if you're not considering this long term. I'm a ratio guy myself, so essentially its risk / benefit.. Test occurs naturally in your body, and even something "generally" well tolerated such as anavar is going to potentially cause more harm than test would and isn't worth the risk / reward, even at supra-physiological levels. But again, just my opinion, and I agree w/ virtually everything else he's saying.

 

[MountainBaby]

More food and up the training for starters as you already have a pretty good base to build on. Lots of great advice given in this thread so consider them. Good luck on your growth goals!

^this.
I struggled with symptoms of hypogonadism for the better part of 15 years. I trained hard, but also felt "stuck" with a certain physique, similar to you (which is nothing to be ashamed of!)

While there were some hormone issues for me to resolve (and therefore health benefits as a result of treatment), my biggest physical successes over the last year have come from a newfound understanding and commitment to diet (i.e. eating more, better focus on macros, much better adherence). This also led to the ability to train much harder in the gym, which helps make me hungry enough for that food - rinse and repeat. After a year of this (using supps, no PED/AAS), I ended my massing phase at ~198 lb at 13% BF (started this process at ~172 lb).

I'm now 2 months into legit TRT (at 120mg Cyp/week) and planning a fat loss phase in 3 weeks where I'll pop my AAS cherry with some Var. Honestly, I'm doing that just because I'm curious - but have no doubt I could hit the aesthetic target (at least in terms of leanness) without AAS.

All of that aside, 250 test a week does seem less than ideal - and a PCT seems like a waste (could just stick to legit TRT after the cycle). Why not a cycle of test and primo?

 

[mass gain]

Edit: Nevermind. I also agree with most points in the video but an oral only cycle for anyone I would not recommend.

 

[Rido]

Yes, I definitely want to start low and raise when I'm doing well and don't see any sides. It's just mentally more comfortable for me as a beginner.

If we compare this to medicine there is a recommended starting dose. To see benefits while mitigating harm etc.

You are far below that to see much of any benefit. right now the risk category is outweighing the benefit ratio is what we are trying to tell you.

to each their own. if someone is "maxed out" at their natural ability, IDK why you would only go slightly higher than what is natural test levels

At the end of the day, you wanna do what you want.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfVBlXuRGPA&t=1233s

the 200-300mg of test he mentions is BASE TEST on top of other stuff.

 

[Btcowboy]

If we compare this to medicine there is a recommended starting dose. To see benefits while mitigating harm etc.

You are far below that to see much of any benefit. right now the risk category is outweighing the benefit ratio is what we are trying to tell you.

to each their own. if someone is "maxed out" at their natural ability, IDK why you would only go slightly higher than what is natural test levels

At the end of the day, you wanna do what you want.



the 200-300mg of test he mentions is BASE TEST on top of other stuff.

I want to comment to OP but he got the info or validation he came for.

Yes everyone is different and yes you can do as want but does that mean you should.

I am kinda done with it, made my comments and move on, he will do as he wants

 

[120nmol]

I ran my first cycle at the age of 16 sust 950mg with deca 600mg I didn't look like a 16yo after that.. but today whenever i cruise on 125/150 a week my total t sits on 65nmol/l 250mg brings me over 90nmol/l each body is different 250mg a week is a good starting point as long as you ro your blood work..
Good luck!
Ps: sprinkle little bit of dbol or tbol will make it more enjoyable...

 

[jsdaking]

I ran my first cycle at the age of 16 sust 950mg with deca 600mg I didn't look like a 16yo after that.. but today whenever i cruise on 125/150 a week my total t sits on 65nmol/l 250mg brings me over 90nmol/l each body is different 250mg a week is a good starting point as long as you ro your blood work..
Good luck!
Ps: sprinkle little bit of dbol or tbol will make it more enjoyable...

oh boy

 

[120nmol]

oh boy

I agree with you 100%