After many years of natty training I want to start my first cycle (pics and info in the thread)

[Jin23]

How did you feel psychologically during your PCT? Some don't seem to mind, others probably fall into a big hole.

I did many pct's. This one wasn't that bad as all I used was 25mg's of enclomiphene. The worst was the one in which I used clomid. That's just depression in a pill.

The aftermath was what was really painful as it took forever to get back to normal. As I said I usually bounced back to 100% normal in 3 months time. While testosterone and LH levels always bounced back in the second week of pct, I never felt normal until app 3 months after pct.

 

[Push50]

I see that a lot of the guys are saying 250/wk is low and I agree That is more of a trt, get my levels normal dosage. But what theOP said was 250/eod. That would equate to 875/wk of test. Too high in my opinion for a first cycle.
500/wk for 16 weeks is a good first cycle. Make sure to have your ancillaries on hand if needed.

 

[El Papacito]

I did many pct's. This one wasn't that bad as all I used was 25mg's of enclomiphene. The worst was the one in which I used clomid. That's just depression in a pill.

The aftermath was what was really painful as it took forever to get back to normal. As I said I usually bounced back to 100% normal in 3 months time. While testosterone and LH levels always bounced back in the second week of pct, I never felt normal until app 3 months after pct.

I took Tamox after my Anavar "experiment" and had zero problems. I also have experience with Clomid and Armidex, I tried to increase my test level "naturally" with them some years ago, it worked well, and I had values of 1100 for a period of time, no side effects.

So do you think the bad PCT feeling some people have is more likely to be from the medication than the intermittently low testo levels?

I see that a lot of the guys are saying 250/wk is low and I agree That is more of a trt, get my levels normal dosage. But what theOP said was 250/eod. That would equate to 875/wk of test. Too high in my opinion for a first cycle.
500/wk for 16 weeks is a good first cycle. Make sure to have your ancillaries on hand if needed.

Nono, i was talking about 250mg Test E per week in total. I'll take the advice and probably start with that and increase if I don't notice any side effects.

 

[Jin23]

So do you think the bad PCT feeling some people have is more likely to be from the medication than the intermittently low testo levels?

It's combination of both coupled with the fact you had astronomically hugh androgen levels just 3 weeks ago, so your essentially going through a strong rebound period.

It's not "some" people. It's most people. A short anavar cycle is something very different. You weren't shut down to begin with.

 

[Push50]

I took Tamox after my Anavar "experiment" and had zero problems. I also have experience with Clomid and Armidex, I tried to increase my test level "naturally" with them some years ago, it worked well, and I had values of 1100 for a period of time, no side effects.

So do you think the bad PCT feeling some people have is more likely to be from the medication than the intermittently low testo levels?

Nono, i was talking about 250mg Test E per week in total. I'll take the advice and probably start with that and increase if I don't notice any side effects.

I read 250 eod missed the 250/wk eod. So the plan would be about 80-85mg/EOD total 250/wk
I still think it’s pretty low but have you considered SARMs at all. First cycle could go pretty well with them and no pinning.

 

[Flankstake]

If I could do this all over again my first cycle would be 500mg test-e a week for 26 weeks.

 

[Black Beard]

Frist of all my stats:

I'm 32 years old, 178cm/5'10" tall and currently around 78-79kg/171-174lbs.

I've been training naturally for almost 10 years now, but I have to say that not much has happened in the last 5 years. I look more or less the same.

View attachment 254218View attachment 254217

My plans:

Working out has helped me in so many aspects of life and has been very good for my human development. My goal this year is to get in the best shape of my life and do my first real cycle. Okey, I have to admit that I've already done a 5-6 week anavar only cycle at 20mg to test the waters (no problems or side effects).

I've researched the subject extensively, but I'd like to hear your opinion on my plans.

My goal isn't necessarily to aim for enormously huge gains, but rather a full, lean body without water retention.

This is what my current form looks like, I am currently on a diet. My goal is to reach real 10% body fat by the end of April/beginning of May and then to start with Testo only. I want to take as low as possible so I'm thinking of 250mg Testosterone Enanthate per week. I want to do a PCt and for the moment i don't want to blast and cruise/TRT.

Exact Plan:

- 250mg Test E per week, injected eod to avoid fluctuations in levels, so rounded up about 72mg per injection (will be hard to measure 100% accurately)
- Buy Clomifen, Tamoxifenfor PCT and in case of possible high Estrogen side effects Arimidex

- blood test with all important parameters before the cycle
- blood test with all important parameters after 4 weeks to see to see my hormone levels, whether estrogen is possibly too high and so on.

I have the following questions for you:

Length of the cycle: You read different things here, from 12 weeks, 16, 20 and so on, what would you recommend me? Please keep in mind that I am doing my first cycle over the summer and I can imagine that it is not so great to only cycle 12 weeks and do a PCT during the best time of the year. Would something speak against 20 weeks? So I could start my PCT at the end of September.

HCG: Does HCG make sense in my case during the cycle? Here you read different opinions, what do you say?

Enanthate or possibly propionate: As I said, my goal is to get/keep a lean shape. Would a daily injection of propionate be superior to a second daily injection of enanthate? I have no problem injecting myself daily.

Avoid bloat, water retention: Do you have any tips on how I can avoid bloat and water retention (if it occurs at all?) Controlling estrogen (if needed), eating clean and control kcal, controlling carbs and salt, drinking enough, anything else?

Thanks to all of you

Important points: What is the physique goal? Do you have an example physique to give an idea? This will dictate the kind of doses/protocols/time it will take to achieve what you want. Are you planning on PCT?


If you are going to PCT instead of cruise year round,

then HCG will improve the chances of recovery of endogenous testosterone levels. Just note that there is no guarantee you will ever regain your baseline testosterone and fertility levels, so this is a big decision you have to make.


If you want to avoid water retention,

stick to testosterone propionate. Ignore the deniers that "test is test". It's not, the pharmacokinetics of test P vs E/C are different with different effects on water retention and other paramaters. Daily propionate is overkill. Monday/Wednesday/Friday prop is frequent enough.


Throw in some HGH,

you will easily get double the results on the same dosage. It's underrated and one of the secrets of bodybuilding nobody tells you about. 10 IU Mon/Wed/Fri HGH will significantly improve muscle/strength gains and prevent fat gain.

 

[VaDImadi]

If I could do this all over again my first cycle would be 500mg test-e a week for 26 weeks.

Why?

 

[El Papacito]

Important points: What is the physique goal? Do you have an example physique to give an idea? This will dictate the kind of doses/protocols/time it will take to achieve what you want. Are you planning on PCT?


If you are going to PCT instead of cruise year round,

then HCG will improve the chances of recovery of endogenous testosterone levels. Just note that there is no guarantee you will ever regain your baseline testosterone and fertility levels, so this is a big decision you have to make.


If you want to avoid water retention,

stick to testosterone propionate. Ignore the deniers that "test is test". It's not, the pharmacokinetics of test P vs E/C are different with different effects on water retention and other paramaters. Daily propionate is overkill. Monday/Wednesday/Friday prop is frequent enough.


Throw in some HGH,

you will easily get double the results on the same dosage. It's underrated and one of the secrets of bodybuilding nobody tells you about. 10 IU Mon/Wed/Fri HGH will significantly improve muscle/strength gains and prevent fat gain.

Thanks for your answer!

My ambitions are not extremely high. 7-10kg (15-20lbs) more at a solid 10-12% body fat, that's all I want. As I said, nothing has progressed naturally for years.
Looking at Steve Cook's current pictures (not the ones from his prime a few years ago) this would be something I would be far more than happy with. Even less would still be fine for me. Here his IG with current pics:

Steve Cook (@stevecook) • Instagram-Fotos und -Videos

2M Follower, 2,042 gefolgt, 3,578 Beiträge – Sieh dir Instagram-Fotos und -Videos von Steve Cook (@stevecook) an

www.instagram.com

I definitely want to plan a PCT for the moment (!) and not make full commitment yet and I am aware that there is a (small?) risk of not bouncing back on my natural levels.

It's more important to me to be halfway lean, especially now that summer is coming up. I want to look good and my goal is not to add the most weight (bloat) possible at any cost. Propionate would be okay for me, I don't care if I inject myself 3-4x or 2x a week.
Theoretically, I should notice it faster because of the short ester and if (!) I react very sensitively and have side effects, I could also get it out of the system faster, right?

I'm from Germany and I also spoke briefly to a german BB coach about my plans. He also said that if I can afford it, I should throw in some HGH.
However, I still have to find out a lot more about HGH, I don't take this step without knowing what I'm getting into. I've partly heard that HGH helps you be lean, but also that it holds water...

 

[Black Beard]

Thanks for your answer!

My ambitions are not extremely high. 7-10kg (15-20lbs) more at a solid 10-12% body fat, that's all I want. As I said, nothing has progressed naturally for years.
Looking at Steve Cook's current pictures (not the ones from his prime a few years ago) this would be something I would be far more than happy with. Even less would still be fine for me. Here his IG with current pics:

Steve Cook (@stevecook) • Instagram-Fotos und -Videos

2M Follower, 2,042 gefolgt, 3,578 Beiträge – Sieh dir Instagram-Fotos und -Videos von Steve Cook (@stevecook) an

www.instagram.com

I definitely want to plan a PCT for the moment (!) and not make full commitment yet and I am aware that there is a (small?) risk of not bouncing back on my natural levels.

It's more important to me to be halfway lean, especially now that summer is coming up. I want to look good and my goal is not to add the most weight (bloat) possible at any cost. Propionate would be okay for me, I don't care if I inject myself 3-4x or 2x a week.
Theoretically, I should notice it faster because of the short ester and if (!) I react very sensitively and have side effects, I could also get it out of the system faster, right?

I'm from Germany and I also spoke briefly to a german BB coach about my plans. He also said that if I can afford it, I should throw in some HGH.
However, I still have to find out a lot more about HGH, I don't take this step without knowing what I'm getting into. I've partly heard that HGH helps you be lean, but also that it holds water...

Honestly, if Steve Cook is what you are looking for, HGH on it's own and getting lean will do it. (Barring you don't have very bad genetics).


Risking your HPTA with even one testosterone cycle won't be worth it. You just can't guarantee recovery.


That instagram 'lean year round / 3D pumped physique' is HGH. They won't tell you this. You here "tren this, clen that" it's all smokes and mirrors.


HGH water retention is down to dosage mostly. You gotta find your sweet spot dosage. Generally 3-4 IU daily or 5-10 IU MWF is the sweet spot for gains/aesthetic/side effects.

I would consider HGH solo and not even look at testosterone/AAS in your situation. It works best the longer you use it, it makes you leaner, stronger, and more muscular/pumped.

 

[Jin23]

That "instagram look" is to loose of a term to mean anything substantial. And no, it's not just GH, ofc not. Guy is on plenty of gear but definitely GH not being the main compound. Probably has a couple of iu's in his protocol, but I doubt it's a high number. High GH look is very distinct, full bloated belly, blocky protruding 6 pack, ... Liver king being a prime example IMO of a "GH look".

OP wont achieve such a look with just one cycle, it's b&c for some time and then staying on a cruise dose for the foreseeable future.

 

[Rido]

OP wont achieve such a look with just one cycle, it's b&c for some time and then staying on a cruise dose for the foreseeable future.

I'm gonna prove you wrong.

Brb enrolling in Photoshop clasees

 

[Jin23]

I'm gonna prove you wrong.

Brb enrolling in Photoshop clasees

 

[Black Beard]

That "instagram look" is to loose of a term to mean anything substantial. And no, it's not just GH, ofc not. Guy is on plenty of gear but definitely GH not being the main compound. Probably has a couple of iu's in his protocol, but I doubt it's a high number. High GH look is very distinct, full bloated belly, blocky protruding 6 pack, ... Liver king being a prime example IMO of a "GH look".

OP wont achieve such a look with just one cycle, it's b&c for some time and then staying on a cruise dose for the foreseeable future.

Genetics is king, that physique is almost if not attainable natty. Lots of guys taking grams of AAS and look worse than him (partially due to bad training/nutrition).

Some guys can easily attain that with GH only . As for OP, maybe or maybe not but HPTA shutdown is a real risk.


and yep, there is the photoshop factor/lighting and many of these guys/gals post old pics and vids

 

[k1000]

I would try 250mg and see where ur numbers are. Maybe ur freak like me 300mg / wk test e 3000

 

[Jin23]

Genetics is king, that physique is almost if not attainable natty. Lots of guys taking grams of AAS and look worse than him (partially due to bad training/nutrition).

Some guys can easily attain that with GH only . As for OP, maybe or maybe not but HPTA shutdown is a real risk.


and yep, there is the photoshop factor/lighting and many of these guys/gals post old pics and vids

Nobody is going to retain such a physique without b&c so I don't understand why the emphasis on shutdown, especially as it's been made clear to the OP, earlier in the thread, that he'll need to stay on if he'll want to keep anything appreciable.

On a semi side note, recovering from simple cycle's with test only, if one used real hcg, is not a problem.

And the thing about GH only, we'll just have to disagree on that one. OP's looking better naty then a lot of folks do on gear, good insertions, full muscle bellies, a good amount of mm ... But just GH? No, not in my opinion no, and even if, the amount of GH needed would be very high and bulking with GH is just a health shit show and thus I wouldn't advise it to anybody who isn't a pro and making money off of this. GH is unhealthy as is, but using large amounts and doing so while bulking, hell no. Use GH for cutting if you must, and leave the mass building to aas and smart programing.

 

[Big_paul]

No question in my mind that if you decide to run steroids with what you have already accomplished naturally, you will regret your decision at some point in time.

 

[Flankstake]

Why?

I was limiting cycles to 12 weeks max and trying to use the least effective dose. Felt like I was spinning my wheels with cycling off / dealing with the shutdown.

One of my friends ran a 6 month high test dose as his first cycle and he looks freaky after only one cycle, I just look like I go to the gym.

The majority of competitive bodybuilders are on 9+ months of the year; I don’t think low dose short cycles align with my goal physique.

 

[Badandy]

Curious how many “natty “ influencers hop on cycle just to look like you. If you can’t get laid with that body. A cycle won’t help

 

[shabsofthemoon]

Best base ive seen to start out a cycle, welldone