MESO-Rx

Anabolic Steroids

After many years of natty training I want to start my first cycle (pics and info in the thread)

Do you know what your test levels are now naturally?
Asking because when guys are saying 250/wk is low, it could be very low depending on how you respond to gear.
Say you’re naturally high and have a 900 test level.
If you aren’t a great responder, and like me 250 a week puts you just over normal levels. It’s going to be an improvement but if I had 900 natural test I’d never bother with a 250 dose.

You may be a much more favorable responder to gear, but I’d be prepared to take the dose higher to make it worth it, and make sure to get some bloodwork done first see where you’re at.
 
On board with what everyone else is saying. 250mg isn't worth the shutdown. You'll end up being disappointed with the results. As a couple have mentioned, you can start at 250mg and ramp up to 500mg. Who knows, you could be a hyper-responder to AAS. For me, 200mg a week puts me at a 1700TT trough when on TRT.

Get bloodwork to get a baseline and then go from there. But I'd advise listening to what a lot of people are already saying. Everyone's been through it lol
 
I will take into account your advice on dosage, personal experience is very helpful. Thanks for that!

I'm currently still thinking about the length of the cycle. Would 20-24 weeks be problematic? What is your thought on this?
 
El Papacito said:
I will take into account your advice on dosage, personal experience is very helpful. Thanks for that!

I'm currently still thinking about the length of the cycle. Would 20-24 weeks be problematic? What is your thought on this?
Click to expand...
If you really want to start at 250. This may be feasible by increasing every 5 weeks. Periodization of testosterone. I would advise get blood work every 5 weeks including test/e2.

But your goal is to cut right? Or get bigger overall?
 
Cridi887 said:
If you really want to start at 250. This may be feasible by increasing every 5 weeks. Periodization of testosterone. I would advise get blood work every 5 weeks including test/e2.

But your goal is to cut right? Or get bigger overall?
Click to expand...
I think I'll be at a solid 10% bf pretty soon, after that I'd increase the calories slightly, but not bulk up dramatically. A lean shape and a some more progress than natty would be more than enough for me. But overall I would like to stay at least relatively lean.
 
You’ve got good potential from your aesthetic - when did you take the Anavar, when the photos were taken?

I’m very interested to see your progress on cycle.
 
El Papacito said:
Frist of all my stats:

I'm 32 years old, 178cm/5'10" tall and currently around 78-79kg/171-174lbs.

I've been training naturally for almost 10 years now, but I have to say that not much has happened in the last 5 years. I look more or less the same.

View attachment 254218View attachment 254217

My plans:

Working out has helped me in so many aspects of life and has been very good for my human development. My goal this year is to get in the best shape of my life and do my first real cycle. Okey, I have to admit that I've already done a 5-6 week anavar only cycle at 20mg to test the waters (no problems or side effects).

I've researched the subject extensively, but I'd like to hear your opinion on my plans.

My goal isn't necessarily to aim for enormously huge gains, but rather a full, lean body without water retention.

This is what my current form looks like, I am currently on a diet. My goal is to reach real 10% body fat by the end of April/beginning of May and then to start with Testo only. I want to take as low as possible so I'm thinking of 250mg Testosterone Enanthate per week. I want to do a PCt and for the moment i don't want to blast and cruise/TRT.

Exact Plan:

- 250mg Test E per week, injected eod to avoid fluctuations in levels, so rounded up about 72mg per injection (will be hard to measure 100% accurately)
- Buy Clomifen, Tamoxifenfor PCT and in case of possible high Estrogen side effects Arimidex

- blood test with all important parameters before the cycle
- blood test with all important parameters after 4 weeks to see to see my hormone levels, whether estrogen is possibly too high and so on.

I have the following questions for you:

Length of the cycle: You read different things here, from 12 weeks, 16, 20 and so on, what would you recommend me? Please keep in mind that I am doing my first cycle over the summer and I can imagine that it is not so great to only cycle 12 weeks and do a PCT during the best time of the year. Would something speak against 20 weeks? So I could start my PCT at the end of September.

HCG: Does HCG make sense in my case during the cycle? Here you read different opinions, what do you say?

Enanthate or possibly propionate: As I said, my goal is to get/keep a lean shape. Would a daily injection of propionate be superior to a second daily injection of enanthate? I have no problem injecting myself daily.

Avoid bloat, water retention: Do you have any tips on how I can avoid bloat and water retention (if it occurs at all?) Controlling estrogen (if needed), eating clean and control kcal, controlling carbs and salt, drinking enough, anything else?

Thanks to all of you :)
Click to expand...

You have good genetics and you might respond well to aas. However, honestly, I'd be happy with your physique as is: you're better then most who are on aas. So I'm basically going to echo what @Cridi887 said.

But, if you do end up cycling, here are some ideas about dosages.

First of all, just blindly recommending mg's makes little sense as nobody here actually knows how well you convert mg's to ng/dl's, ie. how well you metabolize aas. 250 mg's for me is 2700 ng/dl, and I think everybody here would agree that that's enough for a cycle. However, somebody else might end up with serum levels of 1500 ng/dl on 250 mg's. And that might or might not be enough. Which leads me to my second point ...

You do not know how you react to gear. I mean, you did an anavar only cycle, so you should have some idea, but honestly one low dose oral cycle can't represent a long injectable cycle. But, nonetheless, you should have some idea ... Genetic response to aas differs a lot between people. 2500 ng/dl might benefit somebody hugely, but somebody else might not gain a lot from it.

Third point is your goals an expectations. If you listen to a pro competitor, your first poster after your OP, then yeah, ofc, 250 mg is shit and wont do anything. If you listen to a regular, careful biohacker, then yes, 250 mg is plenty and you'll be a changed man. Only you can decide for your self.

And another thing. Shutting yourself down for 12 to 16 weeks with test only is really not that big of a deal. You'll bounce back just fine and quickly. Just use real/tested hcg during the whole duration of the cycle. Or maybe skip the first 4 weeks so you can gauge your serum test and e2 levels on test alone and then add hcg. Seriously, "not worth getting yourself shutdown", yada yada yada, is an irrelevant discourse with short test only cycles. Using multiple compound and or especially 19 nors, now that has some consideration warranted ...

And lastly; you'll loose all your gains eventually and depending how quickly you recover, that might be sooner or later. If your goal is to maintain that size you'll need to stay on, ie. b&c. Otherwise the only thing that makes sense is using aas to preserve muscle mass while cutting down body fat or maybe even a slight recomp. This is what aas were made for; preserving muscle mass and is the only thing that makes sense for a casual user.

Everybody just blindly recommending mg's is such a funny occurrence that happens way to often and nobody seems to be able to go the extra mile and think a bit outside this very narrow and seemengly useless endeavour.

A very important question is also your mental health. Are you stable? Any mental conditions? Maybe adhd? Sleep problems? Anxiety? Are you on any medication? This are also factors which are important for deciding on dosages and if it's even safe to use aas in the first place.
 
El Papacito said:
Frist of all my stats:

I'm 32 years old, 178cm/5'10" tall and currently around 78-79kg/171-174lbs.

I've been training naturally for almost 10 years now, but I have to say that not much has happened in the last 5 years. I look more or less the same.

View attachment 254218View attachment 254217

My plans:

Working out has helped me in so many aspects of life and has been very good for my human development. My goal this year is to get in the best shape of my life and do my first real cycle. Okey, I have to admit that I've already done a 5-6 week anavar only cycle at 20mg to test the waters (no problems or side effects).

I've researched the subject extensively, but I'd like to hear your opinion on my plans.

My goal isn't necessarily to aim for enormously huge gains, but rather a full, lean body without water retention.

This is what my current form looks like, I am currently on a diet. My goal is to reach real 10% body fat by the end of April/beginning of May and then to start with Testo only. I want to take as low as possible so I'm thinking of 250mg Testosterone Enanthate per week. I want to do a PCt and for the moment i don't want to blast and cruise/TRT.

Exact Plan:

- 250mg Test E per week, injected eod to avoid fluctuations in levels, so rounded up about 72mg per injection (will be hard to measure 100% accurately)
- Buy Clomifen, Tamoxifenfor PCT and in case of possible high Estrogen side effects Arimidex

- blood test with all important parameters before the cycle
- blood test with all important parameters after 4 weeks to see to see my hormone levels, whether estrogen is possibly too high and so on.

I have the following questions for you:

Length of the cycle: You read different things here, from 12 weeks, 16, 20 and so on, what would you recommend me? Please keep in mind that I am doing my first cycle over the summer and I can imagine that it is not so great to only cycle 12 weeks and do a PCT during the best time of the year. Would something speak against 20 weeks? So I could start my PCT at the end of September.

HCG: Does HCG make sense in my case during the cycle? Here you read different opinions, what do you say?

Enanthate or possibly propionate: As I said, my goal is to get/keep a lean shape. Would a daily injection of propionate be superior to a second daily injection of enanthate? I have no problem injecting myself daily.

Avoid bloat, water retention: Do you have any tips on how I can avoid bloat and water retention (if it occurs at all?) Controlling estrogen (if needed), eating clean and control kcal, controlling carbs and salt, drinking enough, anything else?

Thanks to all of you :)
Click to expand...
With such a body? Just don’t. You are already in perfect shape and you can stay there your entire life. It makes no sense at all to put your health in risk.
 
You are at a really good starting point so I'd like to parrot the other guys and agree jump for more like 400-500mg of test.

When you see people saying low doses like 200-250 worked for them, there is some nuance in why it actually worked. I see these things kinda often

1) They actually had low T so jumping on 250mg multiplied their test by an outrageous amount. - seeing that you are healthy i would highly doubt 250 is putting you much higher than you already are

2) it's someone who has been half-assing it their whole life and jumping on a "cycle" makes them start taking it seriously. This was me. My first "cycle" was 200mg and I thought it was giving me great results, but really this was just the most serious I ever lifted and ate. I would've had similar results natty. (I'm someone who started way too soon) - You've clearly been taking it seriously so I don't think you'd fall into this category either.

Shut down is shut down. If we're talking about test alone, you will have the same shutdown from 250mg as you would from 500mg. So you might as well just take double the gear and have very few extra issues from it.
 
Jin23 said:
You have good genetics and you might respond well to aas. However, honestly, I'd be happy with your physique as is: you're better then most who are on aas. So I'm basically going to echo what @Cridi887 said.

But, if you do end up cycling, here are some ideas about dosages.

First of all, just blindly recommending mg's makes little sense as nobody here actually knows how well you convert mg's to ng/dl's, ie. how well you metabolize aas. 250 mg's for me is 2700 ng/dl, and I think everybody here would agree that that's enough for a cycle. However, somebody else might end up with serum levels of 1500 ng/dl on 250 mg's. And that might or might not be enough. Which leads me to my second point ...

You do not know how you react to gear. I mean, you did an anavar only cycle, so you should have some idea, but honestly one low dose oral cycle can't represent a long injectable cycle. But, nonetheless, you should have some idea ... Genetic response to aas differs a lot between people. 2500 ng/dl might benefit somebody hugely, but somebody else might not gain a lot from it.

Third point is your goals an expectations. If you listen to a pro competitor, your first poster after your OP, then yeah, ofc, 250 mg is shit and wont do anything. If you listen to a regular, careful biohacker, then yes, 250 mg is plenty and you'll be a changed man. Only you can decide for your self.

And another thing. Shutting yourself down for 12 to 16 weeks with test only is really not that big of a deal. You'll bounce back just fine and quickly. Just use real/tested hcg during the whole duration of the cycle. Or maybe skip the first 4 weeks so you can gauge your serum test and e2 levels on test alone and then add hcg. Seriously, "not worth getting yourself shutdown", yada yada yada, is an irrelevant discourse with short test only cycles. Using multiple compound and or especially 19 nors, now that has some consideration warranted ...

And lastly; you'll loose all your gains eventually and depending how quickly you recover, that might be sooner or later. If your goal is to maintain that size you'll need to stay on, ie. b&c. Otherwise the only thing that makes sense is using aas to preserve muscle mass while cutting down body fat or maybe even a slight recomp. This is what aas were made for; preserving muscle mass and is the only thing that makes sense for a casual user.

Everybody just blindly recommending mg's is such a funny occurrence that happens way to often and nobody seems to be able to go the extra mile and think a bit outside this very narrow and seemengly useless endeavour.

A very important question is also your mental health. Are you stable? Any mental conditions? Maybe adhd? Sleep problems? Anxiety? Are you on any medication? This are also factors which are important for deciding on dosages and if it's even safe to use aas in the first place.
Click to expand...
Awesome mate, very very helpful
 
Defo increase the dose

You will see steroids aren't magic and by the time you realise you will have wasted the bulk of your cycle
 
acvf said:
With such a body? Just don’t. You are already in perfect shape and you can stay there your entire life. It makes no sense at all to put your health in risk.
Click to expand...
Why are you in a steroid forum? Not trying to be an ass but I’m just curious. And no, you can’t stay there your whole life, you can only fight Mother Nature so much
 
Look pretty good.

Take 500mgs for 12 weeks, add an oral for the last 2 weeks plus an additional 2 weeks after you've dropped the test and are waiting for it to clear. I did dbol my first cycle... If I could go back, I'd probably have done a medium anadrol dose or a moderate Anavar dose - anavar might suit your goals a bit better.

Most important part - eat. plenty. food. I honestly think you could make good progress again by just changing that part of your approach. If you really dial that diet in, it's what changes a mediocre cycle into a fucking great one. Tear those muscles up, then send a truckload of protein to build them back again.

You will look back a few years from now and wish you could do the first one all over again.
 
Eman said:
Look pretty good.

Take 500mgs for 12 weeks, add an oral for the last 2 weeks plus an additional 2 weeks after you've dropped the test and are waiting for it to clear. I did dbol my first cycle... If I could go back, I'd probably have done a medium anadrol dose or a moderate Anavar dose - anavar might suit your goals a bit better.

Most important part - eat. plenty. food. I honestly think you could make good progress again by just changing that part of your approach. If you really dial that diet in, it's what changes a mediocre cycle into a fucking great one. Tear those muscles up, then send a truckload of protein to build them back again.

You will look back a few years from now and wish you could do the first one all over again.
Click to expand...
x2! I think the first cycle for anyone should be dedicated towards growing, way too many dudes think they’re gonna be huge and shredded off their first run, but if focus is on size and strength without necessarily getting nit-pick over visible abs I feel like it pays off more in the grand scheme of things
 
Many thanks again to everyone who has written something here, I read every single post carefully. Also many thanks for the compliments, yes I have a certain physical basis, but I've been training for a very long time and have been stagnating for years.

I'll elaborate on your long post @Jin23, thanks for the effort you put into it for me :)
Jin23 said:
You have good genetics and you might respond well to aas. However, honestly, I'd be happy with your physique as is: you're better then most who are on aas. So I'm basically going to echo what @Cridi887 said.

But, if you do end up cycling, here are some ideas about dosages.

First of all, just blindly recommending mg's makes little sense as nobody here actually knows how well you convert mg's to ng/dl's, ie. how well you metabolize aas. 250 mg's for me is 2700 ng/dl, and I think everybody here would agree that that's enough for a cycle. However, somebody else might end up with serum levels of 1500 ng/dl on 250 mg's. And that might or might not be enough. Which leads me to my second point ...

You do not know how you react to gear. I mean, you did an anavar only cycle, so you should have some idea, but honestly one low dose oral cycle can't represent a long injectable cycle. But, nonetheless, you should have some idea ... Genetic response to aas differs a lot between people. 2500 ng/dl might benefit somebody hugely, but somebody else might not gain a lot from it.

Third point is your goals an expectations. If you listen to a pro competitor, your first poster after your OP, then yeah, ofc, 250 mg is shit and wont do anything. If you listen to a regular, careful biohacker, then yes, 250 mg is plenty and you'll be a changed man. Only you can decide for your self.

And another thing. Shutting yourself down for 12 to 16 weeks with test only is really not that big of a deal. You'll bounce back just fine and quickly. Just use real/tested hcg during the whole duration of the cycle. Or maybe skip the first 4 weeks so you can gauge your serum test and e2 levels on test alone and then add hcg. Seriously, "not worth getting yourself shutdown", yada yada yada, is an irrelevant discourse with short test only cycles. Using multiple compound and or especially 19 nors, now that has some consideration warranted ...

And lastly; you'll loose all your gains eventually and depending how quickly you recover, that might be sooner or later. If your goal is to maintain that size you'll need to stay on, ie. b&c. Otherwise the only thing that makes sense is using aas to preserve muscle mass while cutting down body fat or maybe even a slight recomp. This is what aas were made for; preserving muscle mass and is the only thing that makes sense for a casual user.

Everybody just blindly recommending mg's is such a funny occurrence that happens way to often and nobody seems to be able to go the extra mile and think a bit outside this very narrow and seemengly useless endeavour.

A very important question is also your mental health. Are you stable? Any mental conditions? Maybe adhd? Sleep problems? Anxiety? Are you on any medication? This are also factors which are important for deciding on dosages and if it's even safe to use aas in the first place.
Click to expand...
I'm healthy overall, including mentally. No anxiety and I sleep like a baby.
ADHD... sometime i get distracted and often have to pull myself together at work or in my studies to stay focused if something does not interest me 100%, but no diagnosis here.
The only diagnosis I have is hypothyroidism and I've been taking L-Thyroxine (T4) for 10 years.

The paternal family is punished with bad blood lipids. My father had a bypass for this reason last year, because of narrowed vessels due to cholesterol (thank God everything went well).
However, the values are all perfect for me, I only got a bloodwork a month ago.
Because of that I will definitely do a check up with a cardiologist, regardless of whether I use roids or not, better safe than sorry.

I expect that I would lose most of my gains after one cycle, that would be ok for me and I'm prepared for it.

I have a question about the cycle length: As with so many subjects, there are differing opinions. In terms of PCT, is there a massive difference if I was 12 weeks on cycle now or 20 weeks? Or is shut down shut down?
 
El Papacito said:
Many thanks again to everyone who has written something here, I read every single post carefully. Also many thanks for the compliments, yes I have a certain physical basis, but I've been training for a very long time and have been stagnating for years.

I'll elaborate on your long post @Jin23, thanks for the effort you put into it for me :)

I'm healthy overall, including mentally. No anxiety and I sleep like a baby.
ADHD... sometime i get distracted and often have to pull myself together at work or in my studies to stay focused if something does not interest me 100%, but no diagnosis here.
The only diagnosis I have is hypothyroidism and I've been taking L-Thyroxine (T4) for 10 years.

The paternal family is punished with bad blood lipids. My father had a bypass for this reason last year, because of narrowed vessels due to cholesterol (thank God everything went well).
However, the values are all perfect for me, I only got a bloodwork a month ago.
Because of that I will definitely do a check up with a cardiologist, regardless of whether I use roids or not, better safe than sorry.

I expect that I would lose most of my gains after one cycle, that would be ok for me and I'm prepared for it.

I have a question about the cycle length: As with so many subjects, there are differing opinions. In terms of PCT, is there a massive difference if I was 12 weeks on cycle now or 20 weeks? Or is shut down shut down?
Click to expand...

No, it's not the same. Recovery takes longer the longer you're on. Especially the H and P side of things. Gonads are not a problem as you are using hcg ... But 20 weeks is stil not that long. I was on for 10 months and came of in september last year. That took forever to get to normal, but I also had to shorten pct to only 3 weeks, so there's that. My LH was at 1.8 for a long time, after 6 months, now it's finally at 5 which is an upregulation, it should drop to 3.5. The other problem is SHBG. I don't know why, I don't think anybody knows really, why it stays so elevated after cycling in spite of low androgens.

One other thing is brain chemistry, as it gets really reved up during the cycle and systems downregulate. So once you get off the androgens you experience a sort of withdrawal. My head usually needs app 3 months to start feeling normal after a 12 week cycle.

For your first cycle I'd recommend a shorter time on. If you handle it well, go longer the next time.
 
Jin23 said:
No, it's not the same. Recovery takes longer the longer you're on. Especially the H and P side of things. Gonads are not a problem as you are using hcg ... But 20 weeks is stil not that long. I was on for 10 months and came of in september last year. That took forever to get to normal, but I also had to shorten pct to only 3 weeks, so there's that. My LH was at 1.8 for a long time, after 6 months, now it's finally at 5 which is an upregulation, it should drop to 3.5. The other problem is SHBG. I don't know why, I don't think anybody knows really, why it stays so elevated after cycling in spite of low androgens.

One other thing is brain chemistry, as it gets really reved up during the cycle and systems downregulate. So once you get off the androgens you experience a sort of withdrawal. My head usually needs app 3 months to start feeling normal after a 12 week cycle.

For your first cycle I'd recommend a shorter time on. If you handle it well, go longer the next time.
Click to expand...
How did you feel psychologically during your PCT? Some don't seem to mind, others probably fall into a big hole.
 
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