AI monotherapy

[Ghoul]

Yeah if I remember correctly I think I calculated that I should have around 800-1000 test levels. I'm at half that 400-600. It was a massive blow because I was certain that trt would help me. Even at those higher levels some guys have a sweet spot well over that and I now believe that achieving supraphysiological levels of testosterone via exogenous administration is actually safe. I believe lots of guys can handle upwards of 1500 ng/dl. Because even at 1000 ng/dl I didn't feel much. Very slow response to training, very little cardio improvement despite really dedicating myself and hiking 10 miles/day for like 6 months and each time I hiked it was like I had never liked before. I was equally exhausted at the top of those final stairs at the end of my hiking trail. I always took the same trail because it was difficult and also I could rate my progress by how winded I was at marks in the trail.
Almost no strength increase. But when I did a cycle of say 500mg tren/500mg test I did see strength and size gains. But my test must have been over 2000 ng/dl.
Maybe I'm destined to buy my gear underground and self dose. Because no endo is gonna prescribe me 1000mg of test/week lol. I also wanted the cardio benefits. I noticed my a-fib is gone when I take heavier doses of test. Weird.
I'll look into that condition you mentioned. Thanks for the input brother.

Not suggesting this is your issue ofc, given your early AAS use. As they say "When you hear galloping, think horse not unicorn.", but you never know. Given how depressing an unresolved rare problem like this could be might be worth checking if this test is something you can arrange to have done,

They know one type of mutation of this gene leads to such low conversion of test to DHT males are misidentified as female at birth, until more development takes place. There are other mutations of the gene with "unknown effects". Perhaps one of those is metabolism of the test into an inactive metabolite. If I got the test, and a mutation was found, I'd search for one of the people doing clinical research on this gene and contact them.

https://www.fulgentgenetics.com/5-alpha-Reductase-Deficiency

The exogenous testosterone has to be going somewhere if it's not reflected in blood levels.

 

[Trenbologna]

Not suggesting this is your issue ofc, given your early AAS use. As they say "When you hear galloping, think horse not unicorn.", but you never know. Given how depressing an unresolved rare problem like this could be might be worth checking if this test is something you can arrange to have done,

They know one type of mutation of this gene leads to such low conversion of test to DHT males are misidentified as female at birth, until more development takes place. There are other mutations of the gene with "unknown effects". Perhaps one of those is metabolism of the test into an inactive metabolite. If I got the test, and a mutation was found, I'd search for one of the people doing clinical research on this gene and contact them.

https://www.fulgentgenetics.com/5-alpha-Reductase-Deficiency

The exogenous testosterone has to be going somewhere if it's not reflected in blood levels.

Thank you for this. I will follow up.

 

[Ghoul]

Thank you for this. I will follow up.

I just had an interesting conversation about this subject with someone who's active in genetics. He took a look and gave me more insight on how something like this could occur.

5AR deficiency doesn't mean not producing enough of this DHT converting enzyme. It means producing a defective version of it.

In english, Testosterone binds to a receptor on 5AR, a conversion takes place, the testosterone molecule is consumed and a DHT molecule is created.

There are approximately 30 variations of this 5AR defect caused by this gene that have been identified. Some prevent the Test from attaching, others allow the test to attach but result in a conversion to something other than DHT, likely an inactive substance that gets eliminated. It eats test and makes junk.

While as adults we don't have a DHT regulation feedback system like the HPG axis that controls test production, as a developing fetus we do.

Basically, if more DHT is needed during development we create more 5AR production capacity, so you permanently have higher 5AR enzyme levels.

It's important to note here there are two forms of 5AR, type 1 and 2, that work slightly differently but the end product of both is DHT.

It's possible to have a mutation in the gene that only affects 1 type.

So as a fetus your body orders more 5AR, and a mix of type 1 and type 2 capacity is created until the need for DHT is met, and your DHT levels are normal.

As an adult, you now have an excessively high amount of 5AR enzymes consuming test, but a portion is being wasted by producing junk with the defective 5AR, and the "good" 5AR carrying the DHT production load of both types to give you normal DHT levels.

The HPG axis senses this "missing" test and produces more T to compensate.

We don't know your prior test levels but given they would've normally been peaking around your late tees, plus however much extra you were producing to compensate for the amount getting wasted by the bad 5Ar enzyme, you might have been at the limits of what could be produced naturally.

Coming off AAS, you lost some capacity to naturally produce, but the defective 5AR is still eating test, resulting in low T.

This would've likely occurred even without AAS as your test levels naturally declined.

If this theory is accurate, it would explain why your natural production couldn't keep your levels in range, and where the exogenous test is "disappearing" to, despite not having signs of DHT deficiency.

Here's the (maybe) good part.

If you could block the defective 5AR without affecting the other type you might stop losing testosterone from your system.

As you know Finasteride blocks DHT production to prevent hair loss. It only blocks 5AR type 2.

MK-386, a peptide for hair loss only blocks 5AR type 1.

Dutasteride blocks both.

If I were you, without changing anything else, first I'd check Test and DHT levels for a baseline.

Then I'd try finasteride for a couple of weeks and check test and DHT levels.

If Test levels jump and DHT doesn't drop significantly your answer is bad 5AR type 2.

Otherwise if test doesn't increase wait a month, then try MK-386 for a couple of weeks, and check test and DHT levels. If that works 5AR type 1 was the problem.

It may be a long shot, but for the cost of 3 blood tests and a few weeks of trying two 5AR blockers I'd take a chance on it.

Good luck!

 

[Ghoul]

BTW, if you attempt this experiment, please report back here or message me.

If this works for you. it may be a clue into the phenomena of "low responders" to exogenous test, and I'll pass it on the pros who could use this info as a starting point for research into the subject.

 

[Trenbologna]

I just had an interesting conversation about this subject with someone who's active in genetics. He took a look and gave me more insight on how something like this could occur.

5AR deficiency doesn't mean not producing enough of this DHT converting enzyme. It means producing a defective version of it.

In english, Testosterone binds to a receptor on 5AR, a conversion takes place, the testosterone molecule is consumed and a DHT molecule is created.

There are approximately 30 variations of this 5AR defect caused by this gene that have been identified. Some prevent the Test from attaching, others allow the test to attach but result in a conversion to something other than DHT, likely an inactive substance that gets eliminated. It eats test and makes junk.

While as adults we don't have a DHT regulation feedback system like the HPG axis that controls test production, as a developing fetus we do.

Basically, if more DHT is needed during development we create more 5AR production capacity, so you permanently have higher 5AR enzyme levels.

It's important to note here there are two forms of 5AR, type 1 and 2, that work slightly differently but the end product of both is DHT.

It's possible to have a mutation in the gene that only affects 1 type.

So as a fetus your body orders more 5AR, and a mix of type 1 and type 2 capacity is created until the need for DHT is met, and your DHT levels are normal.

As an adult, you now have an excessively high amount of 5AR enzymes consuming test, but a portion is being wasted by producing junk with the defective 5AR, and the "good" 5AR carrying the DHT production load of both types to give you normal DHT levels.

The HPG axis senses this "missing" test and produces more T to compensate.

We don't know your prior test levels but given they would've normally been peaking around your late tees, plus however much extra you were producing to compensate for the amount getting wasted by the bad 5Ar enzyme, you might have been at the limits of what could be produced naturally.

Coming off AAS, you lost some capacity to naturally produce, but the defective 5AR is still eating test, resulting in low T.

This would've likely occurred even without AAS as your test levels naturally declined.

If this theory is accurate, it would explain why your natural production couldn't keep your levels in range, and where the exogenous test is "disappearing" to, despite not having signs of DHT deficiency.

Here's the (maybe) good part.

If you could block the defective 5AR without affecting the other type you might stop losing testosterone from your system.

As you know Finasteride blocks DHT production to prevent hair loss. It only blocks 5AR type 2.

MK-386, a peptide for hair loss only blocks 5AR type 1.

Dutasteride blocks both.

If I were you, without changing anything else, first I'd check Test and DHT levels for a baseline.

Then I'd try finasteride for a couple of weeks and check test and DHT levels.

If Test levels jump and DHT doesn't drop significantly your answer is bad 5AR type 2.

Otherwise if test doesn't increase wait a month, then try MK-386 for a couple of weeks, and check test and DHT levels. If that works 5AR type 1 was the problem.

It may be a long shot, but for the cost of 3 blood tests and a few weeks of trying two 5AR blockers I'd take a chance on it.

Good luck!

Thank you for all that man seriously appreciated. I actually do take Dutasteride and have for over a year when I encountered what I now believe to have been a bout of stress induced telogen effluvian. I also take oral minoxidil along with it 5mg per day. My hair recovered almost too well but my whoppers are still defective, unfortunately.

 

[Ghoul]

Thank you for all that man seriously appreciated. I actually do take Dutasteride and have for over a year when I encountered what I now believe to have been a bout of stress induced telogen effluvian. I also take oral minoxidil along with it 5mg per day. My hair recovered almost too well but my whoppers are still defective, unfortunately.

Wow, that's crazy. Taking dutasteride raises serum T by 15%+. That means you'd otherwise be around 500 with that dose of TRT.

Unfortunate that was a dead end.

Oral minoxidil was very effective for me. There was a little water retention that resolved after a month or so.

Good luck man.

 

[Trenbologna]

Wow, that's crazy. Taking dutasteride raises serum T by 15%+. That means you'd otherwise be around 500 with that dose of TRT.

Unfortunate that was a dead end.

Oral minoxidil was very effective for me. There was a little water retention that resolved after a month or so.

Good luck man.

Agreed with oral minox. I use a dropper liquid Kirkland 4 drops. One package will probably last me 5 years lol. Definitely worked on me better than anything else.

 

[Trenbologna]

Wow, that's crazy. Taking dutasteride raises serum T by 15%+. That means you'd otherwise be around 500 with that dose of TRT.

Unfortunate that was a dead end.

Oral minoxidil was very effective for me. There was a little water retention that resolved after a month or so.

Good luck man.

If I figure it out one day I'll touch base.

 

[Ghoul]

If I figure it out one day I'll touch base.

Consider most of the other men shopping at Costco, given the demographic of their customer base, are statistically likely to have lower T than you, lol.

(that's coming from a long time member)

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Hey Meso,

while doing my research on PEDs I learned that AIs have different effects on naturals than people on steroids. Since the HPTA is not suppressed, the AI does not crash your estrogen completely because of the negative feedback loop. Since aromasin does not seem to have adverse effects on your lipid profile, my question is, why not use it to boost your testosterone? If you find a dose where your estrogen is still kept at a healthy level, then you will have a boost in testosterone with little side effects.

What are your thoughts? Do you think such a protocol would work? If you think it is an utterly stupid idea, why?

I have tried this protocole 10 years ago.

It put me at around 1300 TT with undetectable e2 that didn't bounce back for at least one year after discontinuation.

It also permanantly damaged my e2 receptor.
While on aromasin with 1300 TT I lost a lot of head hair and overall body hair, gained belly fat, lost joint elasticity, and lost all sense of wellbeing.

Androgen receptors need e2 to function properly.
Aromasin, while on paper quite androgenic, proves to be anti-androgenic as you need e2 to remain a male.

Worst experience ever.

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Oral minoxidil was very effective for me. There was a little water retention that resolved after a month or so.

I tried the kirkland liquid, 3 drops a day.
Gives me heart palpitations and a saggy face with bad dark circles.
For the two weeks I used it I got plenty of new hair though.

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Yep. Been to many doctors. None of them know why but it might trace back to a huge cycle I did as a dumb kid when i was 19.
That's my only guess. Even with 200mg trt I can't get past 600 ng/dl. Amd the second I stop it begins to drop. It's as though my body is actively trying to suppress production.

Doesn't work like that, that's a myth that's being passed on with no evidence.

My cousin was hypogonadal and was put on testosterone between the age of 13 and 14, for two years straight.

What it did was make his gonads mature thanks to being in contact with exogenous testosterone, and upon discontinuation he was finally producing testosterone on his own at normal levels.

It doesn't "shut down your HPTA forever" like we've been reading on steroid forums since the early 2000s.

 

[Liter O' Test]

Agreed with oral minox. I use a dropper liquid Kirkland 4 drops. One package will probably last me 5 years lol. Definitely worked on me better than anything else.

@Ghoul is this safe...?

ive been taking 2.5mg oral minox for 40 days and im about to run out and my india shipments isnt gonna get here in time. i figure we arent supposed to drink the stuff in the solution

 

[Trenbologna]

Consider most of the other men shopping at Costco, given the demographic of their customer base, are statistically likely to have lower T than you, lol.

(that's coming from a long time member)

Haha. Yeah there and Chucky Cheese. I just joined Costco finally I'm loving the place but spending way too much.
I was toying with the idea of trying a shorter ester like propionate since shorter esters change the dynamics of both saturation points at receptor sites of testosterone and DHT and minimizes what would otherwise be a constant exposure to estradiol with longer esters which I know can have an effect in the tissues. I wanted to eliminate both DHT and estradiol as possible culprits here. Do I have not enough of one/too much of the other. Maybe something with HCG next.
I think this might play a part in helping any EQ issues though and not test production.
But I might as well try everything. I'm going to include HCG bolus dosage then see if there's a sweet spot. The truth is if I

Doesn't work like that, that's a myth that's being passed on with no evidence.

My cousin was hypogonadal and was put on testosterone between the age of 13 and 14, for two years straight.

What it did was make his gonads mature thanks to being in contact with exogenous testosterone, and upon discontinuation he was finally producing testosterone on his own at normal levels.

It doesn't "shut down your HPTA forever" like we've been reading on steroid forums since the early 2000s.

19 was the first time I had my testosterone levels checked. I think it was 460? The doctor told me I fell within "normal" parameters. I didn't give it any other thoughts until the longer term effects from lower test started to manifest. First it was the bedroom stuff, then just destroying myself in the gym with very little to show for it. Anyways something keeps my test down.
As I say 200mg/week (and I've experimented with number of doses to the point where I was experimenting with every day .30mg 7 days/week even though it was enanthate lol.
Just figured try every variation of treatment within my power to try.
Maybe the fear of permanent shutdown came from those pituitary gland horror stories? Maybe when guys say "I can't produce testosterone on my own" they are simply saying they have low testosterone.
Me I always include that my body still makes around 175-200 ng/dl. No point in exagerrating the condition if the goal is to try and solve the problem. Besides, at 170ng/dl you don't need to exagerrate, trust me lol.
Well thank you for the input brother. Any and all is always much appreciated

 

[Liter O' Test]

Yeah if I remember correctly I think I calculated that I should have around 800-1000 test levels. I'm at half that 400-600. It was a massive blow because I was certain that trt would help me. Even at those higher levels some guys have a sweet spot well over that and I now believe that achieving supraphysiological levels of testosterone via exogenous administration is actually safe. I believe lots of guys can handle upwards of 1500 ng/dl. Because even at 1000 ng/dl I didn't feel much. Very slow response to training, very little cardio improvement despite really dedicating myself and hiking 10 miles/day for like 6 months and each time I hiked it was like I had never liked before. I was equally exhausted at the top of those final stairs at the end of my hiking trail. I always took the same trail because it was difficult and also I could rate my progress by how winded I was at marks in the trail.
Almost no strength increase. But when I did a cycle of say 500mg tren/500mg test I did see strength and size gains. But my test must have been over 2000 ng/dl.
Maybe I'm destined to buy my gear underground and self dose. Because no endo is gonna prescribe me 1000mg of test/week lol. I also wanted the cardio benefits. I noticed my a-fib is gone when I take heavier doses of test. Weird.
I'll look into that condition you mentioned. Thanks for the input brother.

i think you just convert testosterone poorly, i convert it at like 3.8x-4x rate. I wasted a lot of time at 500mg that only got me to what people get from a high 250mg trt cruise. just take as much test as you need to, you dont need someones permission. you cant expect people to care about your own testosterone levels more than you do, and most doctors will just laugh and say youre crazy because youre an outlier and a peasant.
I dont tell many people I'm at 1gram cause I'd have to preface it with my actual total testosterone level, and open that whole can of worms, and people just are not intelligent or mature enough to discuss this logically or be open minded enough to learn.
Now that im at 1 gram I get finally get results like most people get from 500mg-700mg. I always liked orals but thats because i dont convert them at half the rate of everyone else like I do testosterone.

 

[Trenbologna]

@Ghoul is this safe...?

ive been taking 2.5mg oral minox for 40 days and im about to run out and my india shipments isnt gonna get here in time. i figure we arent supposed to drink the stuff in the solution

Actually if you read the ingredients there isn't anything in there that can't be put in the body. The concern guys have is they figure since it's not a pharmaceutical company they would rather not risk a.dosage mistake on the bottle since it can lower blood pressure.
The thing is, the BP dosage was 50mg back when it was used.for that. In droplet form I take 1/10 that. You would be taking even less. The mistake on Kirkland's part would have to be positively massive for 4 droplets to bring my BP down to dangerous levels.
(Minoxidil is prescribed up to 40mg orally for BP).
Kirkland is an established enough company where I'm not concerned in the least.
The amount of money I save is insane doing it this way. Each droplet is 1.25mg for Kirkland so I drop 4 drops per day in some liquid to cover taste. Actually, now I just drop it straight in mouth and sip water. (It doesn't taste pleasant but I'm used to it lol).
Minoxidil Alcohol, propylene glycol, purified water. Each 1ml dropper contains 40 drops. Each bottle is 60ml. That's 2400 drops.
For me one $5.00 bottle (3 for $15 on Amazon) will last me 600 days. For you 1200 days...for $5.00.
Essentially free. I succesfully controlled and reversed my hairloss for free. But I'm not suggesting anyone else do this, also in my case I took minoxidil every day for 18 months on my scalp and saw nothing. I wasnt going to wait the 4 or 5 years it supposedly takes some people to respond since some don't respond ever. Too big a risk. I just make sure to shake the bottle. Also some say after 6 months of opening the bottle it starts to lose potency. A lot of guys will just throw it out at that point since it's so cheap and crack open a new bottle. Even so, that's $10/year. I don't want to brag, but I easily make enough to pay for that. Lol.
Oh my math may be off I haven't slept. There's a breakdown on Reddit called "Complete Guide To Taking Topical Minoxidil" or something similar.
Yes I just suggested a Reddit article, feel free to flame away.

 

[Liter O' Test]

Actually if you read the ingredients there isn't anything in there that can't be put in the body. The concern guys have is they figure since it's not a pharmaceutical company they would rather not risk a.dosage mistake on the bottle since it can lower blood pressure.
The thing is, the BP dosage was 50mg back when it was used.for that. In droplet form I take 1/10 that. You would be taking even less. The mistake on Kirkland's part would have to be positively massive for 4 droplets to bring my BP down to dangerous levels.
(Minoxidil is prescribed up to 40mg orally for BP).
Kirkland is an established enough company where I'm not concerned in the least.
The amount of money I save is insane doing it this way. Each droplet is 1.25mg for Kirkland so I drop 4 drops per day in some liquid to cover taste. Actually, now I just drop it straight in mouth and sip water. (It doesn't taste pleasant but I'm used to it lol).
Minoxidil Alcohol, propylene glycol, purified water. Each 1ml dropper contains 40 drops. Each bottle is 60ml. That's 2400 drops.
For me one $5.00 bottle (3 for $15 on Amazon) will last me 600 days. For you 1200 days...for $5.00.
Essentially free. I succesfully controlled and reversed my hairloss for free. But I'm not suggesting anyone else do this, also in my case I took minoxidil every day for 18 months on my scalp and saw nothing. I wasnt going to wait the 4 or 5 years it supposedly takes some people to respond since some don't respond ever. Too big a risk. I just make sure to shake the bottle. Also some say after 6 months of opening the bottle it starts to lose potency. A lot of guys will just throw it out at that point since it's so cheap and crack open a new bottle. Even so, that's $10/year. I don't want to brag, but I easily make enough to pay for that. Lol.
Oh my math may be off I haven't slept. There's a breakdown on Reddit called "Complete Guide To Taking Topical Minoxidil" or something similar.
Yes I just suggested a Reddit article, feel free to flame away.

yeah i just dont know if that alcohol or whatever is ok to drink everyday, even if it is just 4 drops. just seems unhealthy, yeah im not worried about the dosing inaccuracies , like yo usaid its fine in high doses.

 

[Trenbologna]

i think you just convert testosterone poorly, i convert it at like 3.8x-4x rate. I wasted a lot of time at 500mg that only got me to what people get from a high 250mg trt cruise. just take as much test as you need to, you dont need someones permission. you cant expect people to care about your own testosterone levels more than you do, and most doctors will just laugh and say youre crazy because youre an outlier and a peasant.
I dont tell many people I'm at 1gram cause I'd have to preface it with my actual total testosterone level, and open that whole can of worms, and people just are not intelligent or mature enough to discuss this logically or be open minded enough to learn.
Now that im at 1 gram I get finally get results like most people get from 500mg-700mg. I always liked orals but thats because i dont convert them at half the rate of everyone else like I do testosterone.

I have read some say you can go beyond accepted, "normal" serum testosterone levels into supraphysiological if you are taking trt. Like upwards of 1500 ng/dl. That it doesn't stress the body the way a natural production of 1500 ng/dl would. So take the dose wherever you need it to be until you find your sweetspot of "normal". Me I've not found it yet but my brother, uncle and grandfather all had 1000-1200 natural test levels. All very big athletic dudes. Me I got the height and was very strong for my age early on had somewhat gifted 18.5" arms was curling 100lbs at 19 but once I hit my mid 20's everything started to drop. (Pun intended). I started to weaken and refused to lower the weights so I destroyed both shoulders by 30 in my denial and confusion.
Now I'm 48 but the last 10 years I have not aged well. I look older than my years (except for the hair). I'm realizing that it's way healthier to take exogenous test until you feel normal than it is to stay at Low-low levels. Even from a cardiovascular standpoint it's just better. I honestly think my life will improve drastically once I start. But that's a lot of test. I'm gonna have to learn how to brew it lol. Oh well l, I've heard it's not that hard. "That's what she said."
Indeed.

All that typing to say "we agree" lol.
Thanks brother.

 

[Liter O' Test]

I have read some say you can go beyond accepted, "normal" serum testosterone levels into supraphysiological if you are taking trt. Like upwards of 1500 ng/dl. That it doesn't stress the body the way a natural production of 1500 ng/dl would. So take the dose wherever you need it to be until you find your sweetspot of "normal". Me I've not found it yet but my brother, uncle and grandfather all had 1000-1200 natural test levels. All very big athletic dudes. Me I got the height and was very strong for my age early on had somewhat gifted 18.5" arms was curling 100lbs at 19 but once I hit my mid 20's everything started to drop. (Pun intended). I started to weaken and refused to lower the weights so I destroyed both shoulders by 30 in my denial and confusion.
Now I'm 48 but the last 10 years I have not aged well. I look older than my years (except for the hair). I'm realizing that it's way healthier to take exogenous test until you feel normal than it is to stay at Low-low levels. Even from a cardiovascular standpoint it's just better. I honestly think my life will improve drastically once I start. But that's a lot of test. I'm gonna have to learn how to brew it lol. Oh well l, I've heard it's not that hard. "That's what she said."
Indeed.

All that typing to say "we agree" lol.
Thanks brother.

yeah just do it bro, no shame in it, the milligrams are just a number, the actual value is the ng/dl. I might end up at 2-3 grams pretty soon at this rate and stacking 2 A.I's . I dont give a F that I have to take more to get the same result, because what affects your body is the NG/DL not the actual milligrams or oil you put in to get the result.

If someone gets to 6,000ngdl from 600mg, they arent "healthier" than someone who takes 2 grams to get to 6,000ng/dl, their ass and wallet are just less sore.

 

[Trenbologna]

yeah just do it bro, no shame in it, the milligrams are just a number, the actual value is the ng/dl. I might end up at 2-3 grams pretty soon at this rate and stacking 2 A.I's . I dont give a F that I have to take more to get the same result, because what affects your body is the NG/DL not the actual milligrams or oil you put in to get the result.

If someone gets to 6,000ngdl from 600mg, they arent "healthier" than someone who takes 2 grams to get to 6,000ng/dl, their ass and wallet are just less sore.

I agree we don't convert as well but there still has to be a reason. Whether we know enough yet in literature to understand why some of us are extreme outliers or not, that test has to be going somewhere.