Aromasin ruined me for good..

[BOSSBIG]

He said that? That is guy is a beast. I think he's pretty tall and he's fucking massive. I suspect he has decent genetics and his routines certainly work well for him.

If I were ever to look for a coach that's a guy that truly knows his shit. No poser, he actually knows what he is talking about (not just a quick search google parrot) and he has a lot of competitive experience.

Found it: Stacking AI's?

OP might want to hit him up for advice.

 

[JackSkel]

This thread didn’t disappoint.

 

[EnhancedChimpTBK]

Great thread. 10/10

Will read again.

 

[Exhortae]

You should never go on feels with hormones

Your last estradiol bloodwork was 2 years ago and yet you are injecting estradiol

I think you are not giving yourself the chance to heal by doing what you are doing right now (injecting multiple substances based on how you feel)

 

[EnhancedChimpTBK]

Idk why anyone is taking this guy seriously. He's on prescribed TRT yet haven't done blood work in 2 years. Then he says his doc is prescribing 1mg aromasin which makes no fucking sense. And let's not forget he sells estrogen on Amazon.

This whole thread is ridiculous. Either a troll or a psychotic episode. Regardless it's a waste of time you're not helping anyone especially without RECENT blood work. I'm surprised this stayed somewhat civil for that long.

 

[TTK]

I've seen this posted by a pro coach on Professional Muscle I think he goes by the name of Luki. Some guys have permanently lowered e2 levels from Aromasin. Awful situation to be in. Seems safest to control estrogen with doses or adding primo/eq/mast

In spite of the deranged hysteria from OP, I'm still open minded. I simply don't know enough about the enzyme and how the body replaces it. I would love to learn more from a qualified source.

I think that if someone were to have permanently nuked their enzyme production somehow that it would be straightforward to demonstrate in bloodwork.

If it were me in this situation I'd be showing multiple consecutive hormone panels with disproportionately low E2/T ratio. That seems like a simple and logical demonstration.

 

[Jin23]

The body has different levels of arometase expression in different parts of the body and the brain controls it's own expression of arometase. I've no idea how readily exemastane crosses the BBB and how easily the brain replenishes it's levels of arometase but ... There really is no but, jk, but I hope I grabbed the OP's attention.

The OP has no idea if he actually had low e2 as he did zero blood work. So the whole discussion is moot. What's clear though is that the OP has a) issues with anxiety which were greatly exasperated by using aas (which is normal) and the low e2 and b) using estrogen helps with his anxiety. That is seemingly a fact. However what OP is neglecting is the fact that he doesn't actually know if his e2 is low, he just knows e2 is helping, which doesn't prove his e2 is low. And that's a big difference.

And for all the noobs/people with health anxiety's reading this: using high amounts of e2 is dangerous for a man as hormones change gene expression/are epigenetic. Not to mention the negative effects a high e2/androgen ratio has on the cardio vascular system. Also, as I previously said; the body's control of estrogen levels is tissues specific and with adding exogenous estrogen you are bypassing this innate mechanism. I can't tell how dangerous this is, but it's certainly not optimal.

There is also the chance of high SHBG and low non SHBG bound estradiol, ie. free estradiol as high SHBG means lower free e2 vs free T (SHBG has two allosteric binding sites and how it binds hormones to it isn't as linear as once thought). With adding in exogenous e2, pushing shbg up, then discontinuing exogenous e2 and experiencing "low e2 sides" is a fubar way of determining anything really. For sure your e2 will be low after discontinuation of exogenous e2; you have high shbg, low e2 and probably low free e2 and because you haven't waited enough time to let the body rebalance it self before administering exogenous e2 yet again, you can't derive fuck all from this experiment. Continuous high hormone signaling also does change receptor expression and function, ie. your body adjusts it self to high levels of hormones and when you discontinue said hormones, it also takes time to rebalance this ...

In any case, I'd advise OP to get off of estrogen, get on something anxiolytic and mood stabilizing like an SSRI or maybe lamotrigine or something else, similar, wait out some time (while potentially suffering "low e2 sides"), go to an endo and do some proper extensive labs (or do them him self) and then decide whats what and how to continue therapy. Injecting estradiol from now on until infinity without knowing actually what's going on is just pure madness.

 

[mass gain]

Idk why anyone is taking this guy seriously. He's on prescribed TRT yet haven't done blood work in 2 years. Then he says his doc is prescribing 1mg aromasin which makes no fucking sense. And let's not forget he sells estrogen on Amazon.

This whole thread is ridiculous. Either a troll or a psychotic episode. Regardless it's a waste of time you're not helping anyone especially without RECENT blood work. I'm surprised this stayed somewhat civil for that long.

Correction, he sold estrogen on Ebay I believe.........until his account was banned.

 

[VenomYo]

I know a vet who swears by Letro

Always been an arimidex man myself, but the rebound makes arimidex a bit iffy at times

 

[Type-IIx]

The body has different levels of arometase expression in different parts of the body and the brain controls it's own expression of arometase. I've no idea how readily exemastane crosses the BBB and how easily the brain replenishes it's levels of arometase but ... There really is no but, jk, but I hope I grabbed the OP's attention.

The OP has no idea if he actually had low e2 as he did zero blood work. So the whole discussion is moot. What's clear though is that the OP has a) issues with anxiety which were greatly exasperated by using aas (which is normal) and the low e2 and b) using estrogen helps with his anxiety. That is seemingly a fact. However what OP is neglecting is the fact that he doesn't actually know if his e2 is low, he just knows e2 is helping, which doesn't prove his e2 is low. And that's a big difference.

And for all the noobs/people with health anxiety's reading this: using high amounts of e2 is dangerous for a man as hormones change gene expression/are epigenetic. Not to mention the negative effects a high e2/androgen ratio has on the cardio vascular system. Also, as I previously said; the body's control of estrogen levels is tissues specific and with adding exogenous estrogen you are bypassing this innate mechanism. I can't tell how dangerous this is, but it's certainly not optimal.

There is also the chance of high SHBG and low non SHBG bound estradiol, ie. free estradiol as high SHBG means lower free e2 vs free T (SHBG has two allosteric binding sites and how it binds hormones to it isn't as linear as once thought). With adding in exogenous e2, pushing shbg up, then discontinuing exogenous e2 and experiencing "low e2 sides" is a fubar way of determining anything really. For sure your e2 will be low after discontinuation of exogenous e2; you have high shbg, low e2 and probably low free e2 and because you haven't waited enough time to let the body rebalance it self before administering exogenous e2 yet again, you can't derive fuck all from this experiment. Continuous high hormone signaling also does change receptor expression and function, ie. your body adjusts it self to high levels of hormones and when you discontinue said hormones, it also takes time to rebalance this ...

In any case, I'd advise OP to get off of estrogen, get on something anxiolytic and mood stabilizing like an SSRI or maybe lamotrigine or something else, similar, wait out some time (while potentially suffering "low e2 sides"), go to an endo and do some proper extensive labs (or do them him self) and then decide whats what and how to continue therapy. Injecting estradiol from now on until infinity without knowing actually what's going on is just pure madness.

Really good post, Jin.

 

[Type-IIx]

Still waiting for @Type-IIx to respond.

Paging @Type-IIx to smack some science into this fuckfest

I think that the nocebo effect of exemstane's being a "suicidal" aromatase inhibitor is strong. What OP describes simply cannot be true in the sense that exemestane (Aromasin) is not the culprit for his woes.

Exogenous progesterone (e.g. micronized P4) & allopregnanolone are a potent GABAergic drugs, with efficacy as anxiolytics on par than those of alcohol, benzodiazepines, or barbiturates. If he's actually taking either of those, or conceivably increasing progesterone/allopregnanolone activity by exogenous E2 administration - (I'm not really going to look into this deeply, I have no clue how this might work because it's just never advisable for men to use exogenous E2) - then it wouldn't be surprising that he's experiencing psychoactivity and mood elation as a result. These hormones attach with all the same hazards of GABAergic drugs, including tolerance and withdrawal.

 

[Type-IIx]

Found it: Stacking AI's?

OP might want to hit him up for advice.

Luki is a good coach, but he makes mistakes of attribution all the damn time. He's always running a load of harsh drugs at very high doses, and thinks he's totally resilient to every side effect (he clearly is to an extent, but not invincble).

Recently, he attributed his increasing GGT to a false elevation (!) due to high dose slin that he claimed happened often in bodybuilders that he knew. I told him he was probably incorrectly attributing the GGT increase to the wrong factor and that it should be treated as a true elevation (reflecting primary biliary obstruction). I told him to watch for signs of toxicity including jaundice.

He became jaundiced, and is now attributing (incorrectly) his jaundice to low fat intakes in his diet because some guru he's working with told him this. Betcha the guru took him off 17AAs (wouldn't be surprised if it's Superdrol, luki loves that shit) & reduced AAS doses. But, yeah, it's the diet... low fat causes jaundice, like we all saw in the 1990s when everyone was doing low fat fad diets.

Saying, even while firmly believing, that "A bunch of guys I know think that X causes Y, because Y" is not evidence that X indeed causes Y.

 

[guyfawkes1010]

Well shit last time I did trt with a Dr I got him to give me extemestain too. I forget the dosage but it deff didn't crash my estrogen and I fact it was still high. But I wasn't exactly strict with my dosing. Kinda did the stupid feel thing too.

Been debating which AI to ask from my Dr this time around.

 

[Big_paul]

Hello my friends! i bring the community warnings of long term Aromasin use.

up until 2 years ago, i took aromasin on blasts and trt doses for about 6-7 years straight., im 42 now. it sure SEEMS like it gets stronger as time goes on and i needed less and less. Thats because it PERMANANTLY disables the aromatase enzyme in men(suicidal inhibitor). Well, my enzymes never came back to anywhere near what they were, if at all. ill have to find the article, but aromatase enzymes can be turned OFF by a specific gene. I question if Aromasin has altered DNA in some men with prolonged use, which is why some men dont get destroyed by it.

I can no longer take ANY testosterone without supplemental oral AND injectable estradiol valerate multiple times a day. the more test i take, the worse it gets. probably from DHT antagonizing E2. i cant take zinc or quite a few other supplements either without estrogen. There are many people reporting the same thing about aromasin on many different boards.. Its been a nightmare trying to get trt dialed in before i started taking estrogen. my body hold ZERO fluids without it, yet my face bloats like a puffer fish with razor ripped abs, my skin dries to a crisp, wounds dont heal, no libido, crippling anxiety. ive tried stopping estrogen a few times in this 2 years to see if i no longer need it. NOPE. im fucked in a week with all those symptoms all over again, and they seem worse. im 6'1 210 all year round. i stop estrogen, i drop 10lbs of water in a matter of a few days, my prostate blows up like a balloon, and im debating on chewing on the end of a pistol. The psychological effects of this is completely debilitating to the point i lost many accounts from my business. i NEVER in my life had anxiety till this happened, ill kinda stand there completely lost shaking. The first time that happend, i got checked out because i thought i had a seizure. i did not.If i stop estrogen, its guaranteed to happen again. Estradiol is exponentially more important to my body than testosterone now.

Anybody else have any experience with this? I know i read at least a few guys on here repeating something similiar to this. A few of my friends in real life are going thru the exact same thing too, and having estradiol presribed to them by doctors. The doctors are terrified of this, yet slowly getting board seeing this is a REAL problem stemming from aromasin. This is something brand new that the mainstream medical establishment doesnt even recognize yet, and just tries to force anti depressants down everybodys throats and call ya crazy

I know a lot of you guys on here wont believe this either, because of your own positive experiences with aromasin. Which i also had at a certain point. Ive read over and over about how the old school golden era guys in the 70s and 80s NEVER complained about low estrogen. well in my opinion thats because AIs wernt around yet and they used a lot of dbol. Nor was there an internet for everybody to come whine on. Not to mention, Men back then were real men and not psychologically castrated by society. They didnt complain about shit for fear of being labelled a pussy and beat up by their friends.

What did your endocrinologist say?

 

[Daniel85]

This whole thread is a mess and should be deleted. I think it can do harm to new guys looking for information.

Op said he is suicidal because he fucked himself up just to write on the next page in an optimistic vibe that he is as healthy as he can be and we all should take estrogen and that estrogen is good and that fellaz should not demonise it.

Honestly without making jokes he sounds like his E2 is higher than Himalaya. No blood work at all because under 200mg trt he shits on bloodwork?!! Jeeez


I am not saying you are lying OP. I am just saying I feel like your Problem(s) is something else. But my gut says you were convinced by the AI is bad camp that started 2018 by some morons( and thank god nobody takes these guys on forums serious anymore ) and now you make stories up to sell estrogen and praise estrogen. To each their own. But this thread is fucked up on many levels.

I can tell you that I have “heard” that aromasins effect gets stronger over time and that you need less and less. But only from gym bros…. No studies nothing. So 95% of it probably bullshit.

However I hope you get your shit together and hopefully you’ll feel better soon.
Peace

 

[pistonpump]

Op, come back we have good replies for you!

 

[Coconutz]

Op, come back we have good replies for you!

did ya miss me you fucking idiots????

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/hy1101.095006

 

[Coconutz]

W

The body has different levels of arometase expression in different parts of the body and the brain controls it's own expression of arometase. I've no idea how readily exemastane crosses the BBB and how easily the brain replenishes it's levels of arometase but ... There really is no but, jk, but I hope I grabbed the OP's attention.

The OP has no idea if he actually had low e2 as he did zero blood work. So the whole discussion is moot. What's clear though is that the OP has a) issues with anxiety which were greatly exasperated by using aas (which is normal) and the low e2 and b) using estrogen helps with his anxiety. That is seemingly a fact. However what OP is neglecting is the fact that he doesn't actually know if his e2 is low, he just knows e2 is helping, which doesn't prove his e2 is low. And that's a big difference.

And for all the noobs/people with health anxiety's reading this: using high amounts of e2 is dangerous for a man as hormones change gene expression/are epigenetic. Not to mention the negative effects a high e2/androgen ratio has on the cardio vascular system. Also, as I previously said; the body's control of estrogen levels is tissues specific and with adding exogenous estrogen you are bypassing this innate mechanism. I can't tell how dangerous this is, but it's certainly not optimal.

There is also the chance of high SHBG and low non SHBG bound estradiol, ie. free estradiol as high SHBG means lower free e2 vs free T (SHBG has two allosteric binding sites and how it binds hormones to it isn't as linear as once thought). With adding in exogenous e2, pushing shbg up, then discontinuing exogenous e2 and experiencing "low e2 sides" is a fubar way of determining anything really. For sure your e2 will be low after discontinuation of exogenous e2; you have high shbg, low e2 and probably low free e2 and because you haven't waited enough time to let the body rebalance it self before administering exogenous e2 yet again, you can't derive fuck all from this experiment. Continuous high hormone signaling also does change receptor expression and function, ie. your body adjusts it self to high levels of hormones and when you discontinue said hormones, it also takes time to rebalance this ...

In any case, I'd advise OP to get off of estrogen, get on something anxiolytic and mood stabilizing like an SSRI or maybe lamotrigine or something else, similar, wait out some time (while potentially suffering "low e2 sides"), go to an endo and do some proper extensive labs (or do them him self) and then decide whats what and how to continue therapy. Injecting estradiol from now on until infinity without knowing actually what's going on is just pure madness.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/hy1101.095006

its funny all you internet doctors giving psych advice pushing pills. big pharma strokers here. ill stick with my bioidentical hormones.

i appreciate the diagnoses doc. but a half mg a day of estrogen is going to be exponentially less damaging to the body than those perscription drugs you listed. how do you think those will affect the body until infinity? i mean theres guys here blasing grams and grams of gear justifying THAT? come on now. lets use a little common sense now.. loll. but thats safe right?? have you went on the excelmale.com boards i told you about seeing all the others guys getting prescribed estrogen by doctors?? probly not.

the only thing thats pure madness, is the closed minded juiced up bros here that cant research shit. theres PLENTY of civil conversation about this there, which i initially attempted here. im just back posting another study you dickheads. enjoy it, if yall can even read it

 

[Coconutz]

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/hy1101.095006

its funny all you internet doctors giving psych advice pushing pills. big pharma strokers here. ill stick with my bioidentical hormones.

i appreciate the diagnoses doc. but a HALF MG a day of estrogen is going to be exponentially less damaging to the body than those perscription drugs you listed. how do you think those will affect the body until infinity? you think im blasting grams of estrogen you moron?? i mean theres guys here blasing grams and grams of test justifying THAT? come on now. lets use a little common sense now.. loll. but thats safe right?? have you went on the excelmale.com boards i told you about seeing all the others guys getting prescribed estrogen by doctors?? probly not.

the only thing thats pure madness, is the closed minded juiced up bros here that cant research shit. theres PLENTY of civil conversation about this there, which i initially attempted here. im just back posting another study you dickheads. enjoy it, if yall can even read it

 

[Coconutz]

This whole thread is a mess and should be deleted. I think it can do harm to new guys looking for information.

Op said he is suicidal because he fucked himself up just to write on the next page in an optimistic vibe that he is as healthy as he can be and we all should take estrogen and that estrogen is good and that fellaz should not demonise it.

Honestly without making jokes he sounds like his E2 is higher than Himalaya. No blood work at all because under 200mg trt he shits on bloodwork?!! Jeeez


I am not saying you are lying OP. I am just saying I feel like your Problem(s) is something else. But my gut says you were convinced by the AI is bad camp that started 2018 by some morons( and thank god nobody takes these guys on forums serious anymore ) and now you make stories up to sell estrogen and praise estrogen. To each their own. But this thread is fucked up on many levels.

I can tell you that I have “heard” that aromasins effect gets stronger over time and that you need less and less. But only from gym bros…. No studies nothing. So 95% of it probably bullshit.

However I hope you get your shit together and hopefully you’ll feel better soon.
Peace

nooo idiot. how come nobody can read here?? i said i was suidical BEFORE estrogen supplementation. re read it dummy