Aromatase “deficiency” ? Can’t get my E2 above reference range. On cycle- Never taken an AI or DHT

[Para_33]

My ultra sensitive Estradiol is only 24.5 pg/ml
Ref.Range (8-35pg/ml) and I’m taking 600mg Testosterone per week and no AI or DHT derivative. My Testosterone is from my prescribed compounded pharmacy too and doesn’t contain any other Ai formulated into it. I’ve actually never taken an AI pill in my life ever.

I’ve thought about reaching out for anecdotes as well as anyones input from research on this area.

_______
I’m on
600mg/week Testosterone Enanthate- 630mg/week Nandrolone Decanoate - HCG 2000iu/week- 50mg/day DHEA/Pregnenolone- HMG I’ve added in recently at 75iu every other week or so.

______

The reason I actually discovered this is when I was a lifetime natural looking to optimize and get blood tests done and discovered I had seriously low E2 4.5 pg/ml (ref. 8-35 pg/ml) despite my total T being 380- 500 ng/dl.

I am taking suboxone that I’m tapering off still, so I was able to see that suboxone was lowering my total T a significant degree, but at even 450ng/dl. That should still be enough to provide an E2 that’s somewhat close to in range- where as mine was half the bottom number on the reference range.

Long story short, I got on TRT because of Low E2 more so than Low T.

But I then went on to find that standard trt dosages putting my total t at 900+ at trough, was still not enough to even break 20 pg/ml.


________


Any experience of hearing of “low aromatizers” ?

I know some people can “get away” with taking high doses of Test with no AI, but I always assumed they still had an elevated E2 , just that it wasn’t high to the point of being problematic for them.

I seem to have gone searching for TRT, only to find out that “ERT” is actually what I needed lol. Obviously that probably wouldn’t work given taking exogenous E2 would shut down my T.

I seem to need a TRT regimen/ Blast Cruise regimen that requires some sort of exogenous injectable estradiol cypionate or estradiol valerate to be optimized and reduce my risk of Alzheimer’s and trashed lipids. ( side note my hdl is 51 mg/dl, that high/good for being on this high of a dose right ?)

Idk if it matters but my SHBG is still staying higher than I would expect. The gear is real from my pharmacy and my total T being above the reference range plus reflects this as well.

So, am I a weirdo ? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious and I’m just an idiot lol ?

 

[Type-IIx]

Why would you want it to be higher than the reference range? It's high enough (24.5 pg/mL). You're not aromatase deficient (if you were you'd have a condition ranging from no external genitalia to a different growth pattern than normal adult men).

 

[Para_33]

Why would you want it to be higher than the reference range? It's high enough (24.5 pg/mL). You're not aromatase deficient (if you were you'd have a condition ranging from no external genitalia to a different growth pattern than normal adult men).

I get what your saying and agree. While on cycle anyways.

When I wanna cruise, it drops below the range.

I did continue to grow taller through age 22. Not tall, but I’m just under 5’11. I was 5’9 when I was 17-18. Almost no facial hair either only thin goatee look with no sideburns. Only some chin and patch under my lip. Almost no mustache. , but that’s not totally uncommon I guess.

 

[jJjburton]

I get what your saying and agree. While on cycle anyways.

When I wanna cruise, it drops below the range.

I did continue to grow taller through age 22. Not tall, but I’m just under 5’11. I was 5’9 when I was 17-18. Almost no facial hair either only thin goatee look with no sideburns. Only some chin and patch under my lip. Almost no mustache. , but that’s not totally uncommon I guess.

Its probably the suboxone.

 

[Para_33]

Its probably the suboxone.

You think it could suppress aromatization somehow ? I had that thought, but I couldn’t think of how that might work. Eventually I’ll find out when I can finally get off all together.

 

[jJjburton]

You think it could suppress aromatization somehow ? I had that thought, but I couldn’t think of how that might work. Eventually I’ll find out when I can finally get off all together.

I was on it and am on sublocade now, which i will stop and be totally off.

It made my test levels 190.

It would take a while for it to come back. But i guess it will as the body heals amazing.

Every try just taking dbol at like 5 mg. Or soemthing?

If you joints are ok, and your libido is good. Then having 20 e2 may be good.

 

[Dr JIM]

My ultra sensitive Estradiol is only 24.5 pg/ml
Ref.Range (8-35pg/ml) and I’m taking 600mg Testosterone per week and no AI or DHT derivative. My Testosterone is from my prescribed compounded pharmacy too and doesn’t contain any other Ai formulated into it. I’ve actually never taken an AI pill in my life ever.

I’ve thought about reaching out for anecdotes as well as anyones input from research on this area.

_______
I’m on
600mg/week Testosterone Enanthate- 630mg/week Nandrolone Decanoate - HCG 2000iu/week- 50mg/day DHEA/Pregnenolone- HMG I’ve added in recently at 75iu every other week or so.

______

The reason I actually discovered this is when I was a lifetime natural looking to optimize and get blood tests done and discovered I had seriously low E2 4.5 pg/ml (ref. 8-35 pg/ml) despite my total T being 380- 500 ng/dl.

I am taking suboxone that I’m tapering off still, so I was able to see that suboxone was lowering my total T a significant degree, but at even 450ng/dl. That should still be enough to provide an E2 that’s somewhat close to in range- where as mine was half the bottom number on the reference range.

Long story short, I got on TRT because of Low E2 more so than Low T.

But I then went on to find that standard trt dosages putting my total t at 900+ at trough, was still not enough to even break 20 pg/ml.


________


Any experience of hearing of “low aromatizers” ?

I know some people can “get away” with taking high doses of Test with no AI, but I always assumed they still had an elevated E2 , just that it wasn’t high to the point of being problematic for them.

I seem to have gone searching for TRT, only to find out that “ERT” is actually what I needed lol. Obviously that probably wouldn’t work given taking exogenous E2 would shut down my T.

I seem to need a TRT regimen/ Blast Cruise regimen that requires some sort of exogenous injectable estradiol cypionate or estradiol valerate to be optimized and reduce my risk of Alzheimer’s and trashed lipids. ( side note my hdl is 51 mg/dl, that high/good for being on this high of a dose right ?)

Idk if it matters but my SHBG is still staying higher than I would expect. The gear is real from my pharmacy and my total T being above the reference range plus reflects this as well.

So, am I a weirdo ? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious and I’m just an idiot lol ?

You are micromanaging lab results.

 

[Dr JIM]

You are micromanaging lab results.

…….and misunderstand their purpose and application.

 

[Deleted member 59947]

My ultra sensitive Estradiol is only 24.5 pg/ml
Ref.Range (8-35pg/ml) and I’m taking 600mg Testosterone per week and no AI or DHT derivative. My Testosterone is from my prescribed compounded pharmacy too and doesn’t contain any other Ai formulated into it. I’ve actually never taken an AI pill in my life ever.

I’ve thought about reaching out for anecdotes as well as anyones input from research on this area.

_______
I’m on
600mg/week Testosterone Enanthate- 630mg/week Nandrolone Decanoate - HCG 2000iu/week- 50mg/day DHEA/Pregnenolone- HMG I’ve added in recently at 75iu every other week or so.

______

The reason I actually discovered this is when I was a lifetime natural looking to optimize and get blood tests done and discovered I had seriously low E2 4.5 pg/ml (ref. 8-35 pg/ml) despite my total T being 380- 500 ng/dl.

I am taking suboxone that I’m tapering off still, so I was able to see that suboxone was lowering my total T a significant degree, but at even 450ng/dl. That should still be enough to provide an E2 that’s somewhat close to in range- where as mine was half the bottom number on the reference range.

Long story short, I got on TRT because of Low E2 more so than Low T.

But I then went on to find that standard trt dosages putting my total t at 900+ at trough, was still not enough to even break 20 pg/ml.


________


Any experience of hearing of “low aromatizers” ?

I know some people can “get away” with taking high doses of Test with no AI, but I always assumed they still had an elevated E2 , just that it wasn’t high to the point of being problematic for them.

I seem to have gone searching for TRT, only to find out that “ERT” is actually what I needed lol. Obviously that probably wouldn’t work given taking exogenous E2 would shut down my T.

I seem to need a TRT regimen/ Blast Cruise regimen that requires some sort of exogenous injectable estradiol cypionate or estradiol valerate to be optimized and reduce my risk of Alzheimer’s and trashed lipids. ( side note my hdl is 51 mg/dl, that high/good for being on this high of a dose right ?)

Idk if it matters but my SHBG is still staying higher than I would expect. The gear is real from my pharmacy and my total T being above the reference range plus reflects this as well.

So, am I a weirdo ? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious and I’m just an idiot lol ?

I'm in the same boat as you, and it's funny how people usually either laugh at us or tell us how lucky we are to have subpar e2.
My condition started after a year of exemestane use at various doses.
It's been now 4 years I haven't touched a pill of exemestane, and I still have low e2 issues.
I began TRT for the exact same reason as you did: low e2, with a total T of 800ng/dl, but low free T of 10 (8-40 range).

It has made my life immensely better, it improved all the things that were trashed: joints, libido, mood.
But it isn't as before yet, with a cruise dose of 300mg/week to get my e2 to acceptable levels.

Disregard @Dr JIM 's comments, he does the same thing with every thread: a vague, misconstructed critique, with no solution. He is not even a doctor.

 

[OmL]

Yeah, he does make Some wack comments.

 

[Dr JIM]

Yeah, he does make Some wack comments.

TRT, Blast, Cruse……….ERT
Suboxone
Alzheimer’s, Low aromatizers
SHBG, E-2

Some are better off avoiding AAS altogether

 

[Alphalfa]

My ultra sensitive Estradiol is only 24.5 pg/ml
Ref.Range (8-35pg/ml) and I’m taking 600mg Testosterone per week and no AI or DHT derivative. My Testosterone is from my prescribed compounded pharmacy too and doesn’t contain any other Ai formulated into it. I’ve actually never taken an AI pill in my life ever.

I’ve thought about reaching out for anecdotes as well as anyones input from research on this area.

_______
I’m on
600mg/week Testosterone Enanthate- 630mg/week Nandrolone Decanoate - HCG 2000iu/week- 50mg/day DHEA/Pregnenolone- HMG I’ve added in recently at 75iu every other week or so.

______

The reason I actually discovered this is when I was a lifetime natural looking to optimize and get blood tests done and discovered I had seriously low E2 4.5 pg/ml (ref. 8-35 pg/ml) despite my total T being 380- 500 ng/dl.

I am taking suboxone that I’m tapering off still, so I was able to see that suboxone was lowering my total T a significant degree, but at even 450ng/dl. That should still be enough to provide an E2 that’s somewhat close to in range- where as mine was half the bottom number on the reference range.

Long story short, I got on TRT because of Low E2 more so than Low T.

But I then went on to find that standard trt dosages putting my total t at 900+ at trough, was still not enough to even break 20 pg/ml.


________


Any experience of hearing of “low aromatizers” ?

I know some people can “get away” with taking high doses of Test with no AI, but I always assumed they still had an elevated E2 , just that it wasn’t high to the point of being problematic for them.

I seem to have gone searching for TRT, only to find out that “ERT” is actually what I needed lol. Obviously that probably wouldn’t work given taking exogenous E2 would shut down my T.

I seem to need a TRT regimen/ Blast Cruise regimen that requires some sort of exogenous injectable estradiol cypionate or estradiol valerate to be optimized and reduce my risk of Alzheimer’s and trashed lipids. ( side note my hdl is 51 mg/dl, that high/good for being on this high of a dose right ?)

Idk if it matters but my SHBG is still staying higher than I would expect. The gear is real from my pharmacy and my total T being above the reference range plus reflects this as well.

So, am I a weirdo ? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious and I’m just an idiot lol ?

What is your Total Testosterone with 600mg Test per week? Ultrasensitive method like the E2 since you are using Nandrolone and will show up as testosterone in a normal method providing a false elevated value of Total Test.
I have seen lot of terrible stories about those prescribed compounded pharmacies.

There is no way you can have those E2 levels with 600mg Test/600mg Deca/ tons of HCG and HMG without any AI, Primo, etc.

 

[Para_33]

What is your Total Testosterone with 600mg Test per week? Ultrasensitive method like the E2 since you are using Nandrolone and will show up as testosterone in a normal method providing a false elevated value of Total Test.
I have seen lot of terrible stories about those prescribed compounded pharmacies.

There is no way you can have those E2 levels with 600mg Test/600mg Deca/ tons of HCG and HMG without any AI, Primo, etc.

A nuance to the situation, So in a few days, I’m getting another test back that will show the levels while maintaining injection schedule of the test prop side of things at 600 per week. I can post that when I get it.

In this result, I was on 600mg testosterone per week as daily injections of Test Prop. But because I had a trt follow up, I skipped 4 days of injecting the prop. So my total T was only 961 ng/dl and E2 was 24.5. This is still low estrogen for this high of a T level. The ratio is 35:1 and I’ve heard the best ratio T(ng/dl) : E2(pg/ml) is 13:1 -18-1 and mines all the way at 35:1.

I’m assuming my total T was around 2000-5000ng/dl before I skipped 4 daily injections of Test Prop.

In a few days though, I took another blood test of this same cycle only I didn’t skip any injections this time, so it will truly be reflective of my E2 and total T while 600mg of testosterone in fully in my system and hasn’t dwindled at all from skipping any doses

 

[Alphalfa]

A nuance to the situation, So in a few days, I’m getting another test back that will show the levels while maintaining injection schedule of the test prop side of things at 600 per week. I can post that when I get it.

In this result, I was on 600mg testosterone per week as daily injections of Test Prop. But because I had a trt follow up, I skipped 4 days of injecting the prop. So my total T was only 961 ng/dl and E2 was 24.5. This is still low estrogen for this high of a T level. The ratio is 35:1 and I’ve heard the best ratio T(ng/dl) : E2(pg/ml) is 13:1 -18-1 and mines all the way at 35:1.

I’m assuming my total T was around 2000-5000ng/dl before I skipped 4 daily injections of Test Prop.

In a few days though, I took another blood test of this same cycle only I didn’t skip any injections this time, so it will truly be reflective of my E2 and total T while 600mg of testosterone in fully in my system and hasn’t dwindled at all from skipping any doses

I am sorry but it seems some members were right, your problem is not on the hormones/bloodwork...

1000 ng/dl test and 24.5 E2 is completely fine, it is all in your head. Different case would be if you had that E2 with way more total test. You are now a low aromatizer, last bloodwork I got approx 2000 ng/dl and my E2 was 44, and I felt great.

What you are chasing is just in your head, chasing stupid numbers only because you have heard, instead on focusing on how you feel.

Good luck, you need it.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

A friend of mine has to take estrogen pills, given to him by his doctor, when on trt because his e2 doesn’t hit double digits. Some people aromatize a lot, some very little. You’re the latter. If you want more e2 then you can quite literally just take it.

 

[Para_33]

I am sorry but it seems some members were right, your problem is not on the hormones/bloodwork...

1000 ng/dl test and 24.5 E2 is completely fine, it is all in your head. Different case would be if you had that E2 with way more total test. You are now a low aromatizer, last bloodwork I got approx 2000 ng/dl and my E2 was 44, and I felt great.

What you are chasing is just in your head, chasing stupid numbers only because you have heard, instead on focusing on how you feel.

Good luck, you need it.

Nah, man no offense taken. I actually really appreciate this response because of 2 main things you said. I did have a problem before when I was on a lower dose having only a 4.5pg/ml E2 with a total T of 500ng/dl. Which is an even more low ratio of T:E

I do wanna ask your opinion on soemthing specific though:

Do you think having been in a trough from skipping 4 shots changes anything about the situation?

In other words-
1.)Hypothetically, say I was just instead dosing 25mg per day Test P -every day, and didn’t skip any doses and got blood taken.

2.)As opposed to what I was actually doing-
Taking 85mg per day, and then 4 days leading up to the blood draw, skipping those 4 shots.

Let’s say hypothetically my total T comes out to be 1000ng/dl in both scenarios, would you expect the e2 being higher in scenario 2 because of having just been at a total T that was probably closer to 3000+ ng/dl ?

_________

Ultimately I’m getting another blood test back any day now when labcorp emails me, and I’ll be able to see this for myself, because this time I didn’t skip 4 days of dosing going into the draw, so I’ll be able to see the T:E2 ratio when I’m at the peak of the cycle instead of trough by skipping days.

 

[Alphalfa]

Nah, man no offense taken. I actually really appreciate this response because of 2 main things you said. I did have a problem before when I was on a lower dose having only a 4.5pg/ml E2 with a total T of 500ng/dl. Which is an even more low ratio of T:E

I do wanna ask your opinion on soemthing specific though:

Do you think having been in a trough from skipping 4 shots changes anything about the situation?

In other words-
1.)Hypothetically, say I was just instead dosing 25mg per day Test P -every day, and didn’t skip any doses and got blood taken.

2.)As opposed to what I was actually doing-
Taking 85mg per day, and then 4 days leading up to the blood draw, skipping those 4 shots.

Let’s say hypothetically my total T comes out to be 1000ng/dl in both scenarios, would you expect the e2 being higher in scenario 2 because of having just been at a total T that was probably closer to 3000+ ng/dl ?

_________

Ultimately I’m getting another blood test back any day now when labcorp emails me, and I’ll be able to see this for myself, because this time I didn’t skip 4 days of dosing going into the draw, so I’ll be able to see the T:E2 ratio when I’m at the peak of the cycle instead of trough by skipping days.

Sorry if sounded too rude, it was not my purporse.

Well, the problem is that you are using Propionate, if pinning you that frequently is giving you trouble, why don't you switch to Cyp or Enant, you will get more stable levels.

Regarding both cases, I do not know if there is any real delay between Test levels and E2 production via aromatase.
But in case one you will get more stable levels of Test, therefore more stable levels of E2. And pinning daily is the only way to go when using Propionate.
In case 2 is really difficult to determine how much it has decreased, even knowing the half life you can have a rough idea, but it does not make any sense to do that planning using Propionate.

I would recommend you to use Cyp or Enant, and if you want higher Test peaks, leading to higher E2 peaks, do e3.5d or less frequently. You will get a deeper trough too tho.

 

[Para_33]

I'm in the same boat as you, and it's funny how people usually either laugh at us or tell us how lucky we are to have subpar e2.
My condition started after a year of exemestane use at various doses.
It's been now 4 years I haven't touched a pill of exemestane, and I still have low e2 issues.
I began TRT for the exact same reason as you did: low e2, with a total T of 800ng/dl, but low free T of 10 (8-40 range).

It has made my life immensely better, it improved all the things that were trashed: joints, libido, mood.
But it isn't as before yet, with a cruise dose of 300mg/week to get my e2 to acceptable levels.

Disregard @Dr JIM 's comments, he does the same thing with every thread: a vague, misconstructed critique, with no solution. He is not even a doctor.

Damn, sorry you’ve got that issue, but thanks for your anecdote though. I also had a low free.

There seems like there is 3 or more different ref ranges for free T specifically at labcorp it’s confusing.

Appreciate ya, for lookin out too haha. I’m not worried about what people think. In a lot of ways I’m a newbie to taking this stuff but I know the technical side of thing going back a while. Plus my formal medical education. Not worth shit tbh compared to what I’ve learned online.

Do you mind sharing 1 or 2 examples of your Total T and E2 at a given dose?

Like at 300mg- total T and E2.

Basically I’m looking at the ratio of Total T:E2.

Vigorous Steve I’ve learned a lot from and I’ve heard him and others recommend trying for this ratio of 13:1 -18:1 of Total T in ng/dl divided by E2 in pg/ml.

Mine has been as low as 111:1 to now being 40:1 with my most recent test.

On the 600 test- My total was 960ng/dl when I got the 24.5pg/ml E2. But the total T is much lower than you’d expect because i was taking daily doses of Test P, and I skipped 3 or 4 shots daily in a row leading up the that blood draw.

I get that 960 T / 24.5 E isn’t “extremely “ low. But given that this was a huge trough because I’d skipped 4 shots, I’d expect my E2 to be higher given that my Total T was at something closer probably to 3000+ ng/dl.



I’m going to be getting new lab results emailed any day now from labcorp. Because I just took the bloods again, only this time I didn’t skip any shots leading up to the blood test.

So it will be a true reflection of everything on 600mg Test /630 Nandrolone

 

[Para_33]

Sorry if sounded too rude, it was not my purporse.

Well, the problem is that you are using Propionate, if pinning you that frequently is giving you trouble, why don't you switch to Cyp or Enant, you will get more stable levels.

Regarding both cases, I do not know if there is any real delay between Test levels and E2 production via aromatase.
But in case one you will get more stable levels of Test, therefore more stable levels of E2. And pinning daily is the only way to go when using Propionate.
In case 2 is really difficult to determine how much it has decreased, even knowing the half life you can have a rough idea, but it does not make any sense to do that planning using Propionate.

I would recommend you to use Cyp or Enant, and if you want higher Test peaks, leading to higher E2 peaks, do e3.5d or less frequently. You will get a deeper trough too tho.

Nah no worries at all.

Yea it’s a weird scenario, the reason I skipped those 4 shots 4 days in a row of test prop was because it was my first follow up with a new doctor and didn’t wanna go in right away with some jacked total T at like 3000 or something.


I repeated the blood test again, but this time I maintained daily pinning going in to the blood draw, so I’ll be able to see exactly where things are at.


I agree, I do use Test E now, I just wanted the prop because I knew I had the doctor follow up soon, and I knew the prop would let me blast and then pull it out for a few days to get a more doctor approved total T before jumping back on after the blood draw.

I actually pin daily with Test E as well for right now, but it’s for a experiment purpose. Want to see how it affects my Shbg. Not a problem for me. I use a 29g 1/2in for delts 1 inch for ventroglute since I wanna put decently deep in the muscle.

 

[Para_33]

A friend of mine has to take estrogen pills, given to him by his doctor, when on trt because his e2 doesn’t hit double digits. Some people aromatize a lot, some very little. You’re the latter. If you want more e2 then you can quite literally just take it.

I’m looking to get injectable estradiol cypionate/ valerate for that reason. Hoping the doctor will agree. It’s harder to find online than gear. Haven’t had luck yet.