Aromatase “deficiency” ? Can’t get my E2 above reference range. On cycle- Never taken an AI or DHT

[Type-IIx]

We should gather up all the guys who have even a momentary fleeting thought of taking ERT for their pseudo-low E2, and send them to the Excel Male forums where they belong.

 

[Dr JIM]

A friend of mine has to take estrogen pills, given to him by his doctor, when on trt because his e2 doesn’t hit double digits. Some people aromatize a lot, some very little. You’re the latter. If you want more e2 then you can quite literally just take it.

And the evidence to support such a practice in the absence of objective signs or symptoms approximates zero.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

And the evidence to support such a practice in the absence of objective signs or symptoms approximates zero.

He had issues from his low e2, all of which were alleviated by adding estrogen to his protocol. Lol “Dr” Jim.

 

[Dr JIM]

If you want more e2 then you can quite literally just take it.

Advice of this nature is reckless

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Advice of this nature is reckless

Thanks for your opinion you absolute clown.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

And the evidence to support such a practice in the absence of objective signs or symptoms approximates zero.

Seriously, the more I think about this the more concerned I am about someone calling themselves a doctor and dispensing advice on here. Estrogen deficiency in men is a recognized diagnosis and has a very safe and effective treatment. It’s absurd that you cannot accept that clinicians are willing to treat an illness which if left untreated can cause loss of bone density over time. Is your solution to just let a guy in his early 30’s slowly wither away from the inside out? He should be without a libido or normal social skills or emotions because you don’t think treatment for a condition is warranted?

 

[Deleted member 59947]

I’m looking to get injectable estradiol cypionate/ valerate for that reason. Hoping the doctor will agree. It’s harder to find online than gear. Haven’t had luck yet.

Plenty of estrogen creams on amazon

 

[Deleted member 59947]

I am sorry but it seems some members were right, your problem is not on the hormones/bloodwork...

1000 ng/dl test and 24.5 E2 is completely fine, it is all in your head. Different case would be if you had that E2 with way more total test. You are now a low aromatizer, last bloodwork I got approx 2000 ng/dl and my E2 was 44, and I felt great.

What you are chasing is just in your head, chasing stupid numbers only because you have heard, instead on focusing on how you feel.

Good luck, you need it.

Issues arose right when I started taking exemestane. It has since been almost impossible to experience a sense of well-being.
All other parameters being equal: plenty of money, a loving wife, plenty of goals, plenty of sun and outdoor activity, friends. Literally nothing has changed aside from exemestane. And situation was ameliorated when introducing exogenous testosterone and therefore raising estrogens.

How could it be in our head then?

I've explored plenty of other roads too, such as heavy metal poisoning, and started chelation, which helped somewhat.

I don't blame you. It's hard for someone completely external to the issue to even begin to perceive the physiological and psychological changes associated with this conditon.

 

[Alphalfa]

Issues arose right when I started taking exemestane. It has since been almost impossible to experience a sense of well-being.
All other parameters being equal: plenty of money, a loving wife, plenty of goals, plenty of sun and outdoor activity, friends. Literally nothing has changed aside from exemestane. And situation was ameliorated when introducing exogenous testosterone and therefore raising estrogens.

How could it be in our head then?

I've explored plenty of other roads too, such as heavy metal poisoning, and started chelation, which helped somewhat.

I don't blame you. It's hard for someone completely external to the issue to even begin to perceive the physiological and psychological changes associated with this conditon.

You did not get my point, I just said that his claims of being a low aromatizer are not true, at least judging by bloodwork numbers. Just the opposite, it shows a great ratio Test:E2.

He made a lot of focus on chasing certain number because that is what he heard, instead on trying to get his E2 between a safe range. And you cannot use his bloodwork like if he was using 600mg Test because he dropped it for 4 days, using propionate, so clearly Test and E2 dropped having a half life of 19-20 hours. He did for a reason, but exactly because of that he cannot extrapolate it to steady 600mg per week on a daily basis using prop.

I began TRT for the exact same reason as you did: low e2, with a total T of 800ng/dl, but low free T of 10 (8-40 range).

What are your E2 levels and Total Test, what dosage? SHBG? There are more factors, if you are getting 1000ng/dl of Total Test and E2 of 10 or below, I could understand you truly do not aromatise enough, but that is not his case.

I am sure your SHBG was high as fuck since that amount of Free T with that Total Test makes no sense, did you have any SHBG value pre-TRT?

 

[Deleted member 59947]

You did not get my point, I just said that his claims of being a low aromatizer are not true, at least judging by bloodwork numbers. Just the opposite, it shows a great ratio Test:E2.

He made a lot of focus on chasing certain number because that is what he heard, instead on trying to get his E2 between a safe range. And you cannot use his bloodwork like if he was using 600mg Test because he dropped it for 4 days, using propionate, so clearly Test and E2 dropped having a half life of 19-20 hours. He did for a reason, but exactly because of that he cannot extrapolate it to steady 600mg per week on a daily basis using prop.



What are your E2 levels and Total Test, what dosage? SHBG? There are more factors, if you are getting 1000ng/dl of Total Test and E2 of 10 or below, I could understand you truly do not aromatise enough, but that is not his case.

I am sure your SHBG was high as fuck since that amount of Free T with that Total Test makes no sense, did you have any SHBG value pre-TRT?

It's not about numbers, it's about how one feels.
I'm not chasing all those values you asked, because I don't need it to feel better, I just need a hefty amount of test to feel better, and I do.

 

[Alphalfa]

It's not about numbers, it's about how one feels.
I'm not chasing all those values you asked, because I don't need it to feel better, I just need a hefty amount of test to feel better, and I do.

Well, you do not have to chase numbers but ranges of values are useful, otherwise you are just going totally blind all the way. This totally explain why you feel like that, you simply have no idea what your problem is and how to fix it, just randomly making changes to see if you find the sweet spot in one of the hundred attempts.

Have you tried to understand the reason of your pre-TRT bloodwork values, you might understand that you had no T free at all for the amount of total test, therefore no enough E2. So high likely it was something with the SHBG. Since E2 was not the problem in this case to have elevated SHBG, maybe your liver was/is fucked, since SHBG production takes place in the liver.

But if you were literally eating exemestane like candies without any bloodwork, who knows, probably a combination of everything due to your non-bloodwork needed, strictly feelings!

 

[Type-IIx]

Thanks for your opinion you absolute clown.

Any MD that prescribes exogenous estradiol to a male where male sexual function is not a bygone concern (e.g., commitment to transitioning to female [transwomen]; voluntary castration; or clinical Aromatase Deficiency [i.e., lack of external genitalia; raised as an XY female]) is the clown.

Dr Jim has given every indication that he is an MD. What makes you believe he is not?

Now, arrogant and disdainful towards androgen abusers? And those who micromanage blood test results? Oh, absolutely. That doesn't make him a fraud, though.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Any MD that prescribes exogenous estradiol to a male where male sexual function is not a bygone concern (e.g., commitment to transitioning to female [transwomen]; voluntary castration; or clinical Aromatase Deficiency [i.e., lack of external genitalia; raised as an XY female]) is the clown.

Dr Jim has given every indication that he is an MD. What makes you believe he is not?

Now, arrogant and disdainful towards androgen abusers? And those who micromanage blood test results? Oh, absolutely. That doesn't make him a fraud, though.

He’s a blowhard know-it-all, so I’m 100% certain that’s he’s an MD.

 

[Para_33]

Any MD that prescribes exogenous estradiol to a male where male sexual function is not a bygone concern (e.g., commitment to transitioning to female [transwomen]; voluntary castration; or clinical Aromatase Deficiency [i.e., lack of external genitalia; raised as an XY female]) is the clown.

Dr Jim has given every indication that he is an MD. What makes you believe he is not?

Now, arrogant and disdainful towards androgen abusers? And those who micromanage blood test results? Oh, absolutely. That doesn't make him a fraud, though.

I wont shit on anyone for their opinion. But in my case, having estradiol levels below the reference range when on high dose trt, I wouldn’t exactly call micro managing, but that’s just my opinion.

For me, last time I was on 250mg per week ( lower than the 600mg im on now ) my estrogen was very close to being out of the reference range.

And when I was natural, even having a 500ng total, my estrogen was 1/2 the minimum value.

your philosophy of people needing to calm down and let things be when they feel fine is something I personally agree with, obsessing and micromanaging causes problems itself often.

On the other side of that, in my opinion there is something here- for multiple reasons.
1.) Estrogen is anabolic. And we’re on a steroid board. Don’t really have to explain further here.

2.) having any bio marker undesirably below or at the bottom of the reference range, then fixing that and “performance enhancing it “ is a big reason why people are here.

3.) is 500 natty test as good as 250mg trt for building muscle ? It isn’t. And having a solid anabolic like estrogen in the body up at a high level is desirable for growth, well being, and probably Alzheimer’s/heart attack risk, bone density etc.

You could make an argument against estrogen for helping those health things.

But I think it’s going to be harder to argue against estrogen anabolic effect and it being desirable for that aspect alone.

 

[Type-IIx]

I wont shit on anyone for their opinion. But in my case, having estradiol levels below the reference range when on high dose trt, I wouldn’t exactly call micro managing, but that’s just my opinion.

For me, last time I was on 250mg per week ( lower than the 600mg im on now ) my estrogen was very close to being out of the reference range.

And when I was natural, even having a 500ng total, my estrogen was 1/2 the minimum value.

your philosophy of people needing to calm down and let things be when they feel fine is something I personally agree with, obsessing and micromanaging causes problems itself often.

On the other side of that, in my opinion there is something here- for multiple reasons.
1.) Estrogen is anabolic. And we’re on a steroid board. Don’t really have to explain further here.

2.) having any bio marker undesirably below or at the bottom of the reference range, then fixing that and “performance enhancing it “ is a big reason why people are here.

3.) is 500 natty test as good as 250mg trt for building muscle ? It isn’t. And having a solid anabolic like estrogen in the body up at a high level is desirable for growth, well being, and probably Alzheimer’s/heart attack risk, bone density etc.

You could make an argument against estrogen for helping those health things.

But I think it’s going to be harder to argue against estrogen anabolic effect and it being desirable for that aspect alone.

I don't know how to word this more politely, but you grossly misunderstand every material subject that you've touched upon with your errant reasoning. But that's OK! I appreciate your respect for my philosophy (you're correct insofar as that is my philosophy) - but you make spurious leaps based on misunderstandings of estrogens, reference ranges, purported cardiovascular benefits, etc. of exogenous estrogens vs. aromatic products produced by in situ aromatization in men. You are NOT alone in these delusions, there is a decent forum dealing specifically with this subject matter called the Excel Male forums. Have you checked them out? Because they might be more in line (though also sharing in erroneous beliefs) with your, as you put it, philosophy. Check that forum out, it might be more up your alley brother.

 

[Deleted member 59947]

I don't know how to word this more politely, but you grossly misunderstand every material subject that you've touched upon with your errant reasoning. But that's OK! I appreciate your respect for my philosophy (you're correct insofar as that is my philosophy) - but you make spurious leaps based on misunderstandings of estrogens, reference ranges, purported cardiovascular benefits, etc. of exogenous estrogens vs. aromatic products produced by in situ aromatization in men. You are NOT alone in these delusions, there is a decent forum dealing specifically with this subject matter called the Excel Male forums. Have you checked them out? Because they might be more in line (though also sharing in erroneous beliefs) with your, as you put it, philosophy. Check that forum out, it might be more up your alley brother.

You put way too much value in clinical analysis and theoretical calculations for a subject that is deeply rooted in in vivo human biology, and the intricacies of which cannot be fathomed by looking at a computer screen. I rather value the reports of those witnessing in vivo changes brought upon by the introduction of new compounds.

 

[Deleted member 59947]

This totally explain why you feel like that, you simply have no idea what your problem is and how to fix it

I guess you are listening to yourself too much and not actually reading me: I said I feel great now that I'm on a hefty dose of test.

 

[Type-IIx]

You put way too much value in clinical analysis and theoretical calculations for a subject that is deeply rooted in in vivo human biology, and the intricacies of which cannot be fathomed by looking at a computer screen. I rather value the reports of those witnessing in vivo changes brought upon by the introduction of new compounds.

Now we're talking opinions. You're absolutely entitled to this, I respectfully disagree that I'm the one placing the value in the wrong place.

You're right that I put a near zero value on n=1 FEELZ & trials of 1. For example, YouTube clips featuring bros that snort intranasal oxytocin (the pair bonding hormone) pre-workout. Same goes for bros that take allopregnanolone and likewise bullshit.

Excel Male Forums, there's no shame in it.

 

[Para_33]

I don't know how to word this more politely, but you grossly misunderstand every material subject that you've touched upon with your errant reasoning. But that's OK! I appreciate your respect for my philosophy (you're correct insofar as that is my philosophy) - but you make spurious leaps based on misunderstandings of estrogens, reference ranges, purported cardiovascular benefits, etc. of exogenous estrogens vs. aromatic products produced by in situ aromatization in men. You are NOT alone in these delusions, there is a decent forum dealing specifically with this subject matter called the Excel Male forums. Have you checked them out? Because they might be more in line (though also sharing in erroneous beliefs) with your, as you put it, philosophy. Check that forum out, it might be more up your alley brother.

For It’s more so the thinking that estrogen is anabolic. Just like testosterone. Weather that be endogenous test or injected/ endogenous estrogen/injected.

I’m taking this stuff to help build muscle, I want that to be as affective as possible.

The estrogen receptor alpha and beta both responsible for anabolism as well as collagen synthesis.

Would you disagree with that ?

 

[Alphalfa]

For It’s more so the thinking that estrogen is anabolic. Just like testosterone. Weather that be endogenous test or injected/ endogenous estrogen/injected.

I’m taking this stuff to help build muscle, I want that to be as affective as possible.

The estrogen receptor alpha and beta both responsible for anabolism as well as collagen synthesis.

Would you disagree with that ?

I do not think he is saying nothing about not reaching the right range-value of E2, but how to reach it.
He is saying that in case you had to reach certain E2 levels, just do it via aromatic compounds and not exogenous E2.
That way you will be more anabolic from both the increase of Test/aromatic compound and E2 via aromatase conversion, as you requested.