Aromatase “deficiency” ? Can’t get my E2 above reference range. On cycle- Never taken an AI or DHT

[Type-IIx]

For It’s more so the thinking that estrogen is anabolic. Just like testosterone. Weather that be endogenous test or injected/ endogenous estrogen/injected.

I’m taking this stuff to help build muscle, I want that to be as affective as possible.

The estrogen receptor alpha and beta both responsible for anabolism as well as collagen synthesis.

Would you disagree with that ?

Estrogens are anabolic in skeletal muscle & bone but decrease stiffness in ligament & tendon (increasing risk of pulls and ligament rupture & decreasing performance). Despite increased collagen synthesis in ligament, E2 decreases the collagen:elastin ration, due to upregulation of MMP-13, which degrades collagen but not elastin. Despite increased collagen synthesis, UTS & modulus (mechanical properties) decline due to inhibition of lysyl oxidase activity by estrogen.

 

[Type-IIx]

I do not think he is saying nothing about not reaching the right range-value of E2, but how to reach it.
He is saying that in case you had to reach certain E2 levels, just do it via aromatic compounds and not exogenous E2.
That way you will be more anabolic from both the increase of Test/aromatic compound and E2 via aromatase conversion, as you requested.

Correct! There are important differences here between using Test and using exogenous E2. There is never a justification for a man with intact sexual function or that which can be restored to use exogenous estrogens. And here, where OP is completely FINE, he shouldn't even have a fleeting thought of using exogenous estrogens.

 

[Goingstronger]

Excel Male Forums, there's no shame in it.

I'm an active member there and loving it!

I think you would benefit from slightly opening your mind to new possibilities. But again, that's just an opinion.

 

[Goingstronger]

There is never a justification for a man with intact sexual function or that which can be restored to use exogenous estrogens.

Glad you now recognize that when sexual function is not optimal exogenous estrogens can be considered.

 

[Goingstronger]

And here, where OP is completely FINE, he shouldn't even have a fleeting thought of using exogenous estrogens.

Mmm... @Para_33 correct me if I'm wrong, but you wouldn't have started this thread if you felt "fine"?

 

[Ferenor]

@Type-IIx I love to read you here and PM, just to let you know

 

[Para_33]

Mmm... @Para_33 correct me if I'm wrong, but you wouldn't have started this thread if you felt "fine"?

Yea exactly. Though it’s hard to tell what is just normal vs things that could be improved. Maybe a drop in libido from baseline. But ultimately, I began looking into blood tests and optimization when I became fed of the last 5-6 years of needing 10 hours of sleep- sometimes more to feel actually rested. Going to be at 945-10pm every night, no trouble falling asleep, and still sleeping through alarms going off at 830 often.

That has improved though since starting trt, I feel better rested with 9.5 hours sleep.

The thing I still notice though, is this stuck in quick sand type of feeling after waking up, very low physical energy and strength the first 3-4 hours after waking. It doesn’t happen every day now, but I still feel it maybe 1-2x per week, and I’ll wake up feeling rested, but it just takes me several hours to really get into a groove and feeling like I have the physical energy to do what I need to do effectively.

It’s not like I don’t try to get up and move either, like I’ll get up, cook, clean and to do the needed stuff around the house, and that dragging feeling is there.

Update to my blood test:

I still have what I consider to be a low E2 ratio, but it’s not as low as before. The reason for that I suspect is SHBG getting crashed, or my Testosterone Enanthate is underdosed- however I don’t suspect this highly or anything. Too many variables and I don’t like the idea of blaming a product when there might be an underlying issue to the person.

On 85mg Test E per day- 90mg Nandrolone Decanoate per day- and sometimes 50mg Tren A per day (10-15 days at a time on and off).


—4/01/22–
Total T: 1573.4 ng/dL
E2: 51.9 pg/mL
Insulin: 22.7 uiU/mL
SHBG: 9.8nmol/L (previously 21.9 on 2/07/22)
Prolactin: 25.5ng/mL (previously 5.9 on 2/07/22)
AST: 85 iu/L ( previously 117 on 2/07/22)
ALT: 105 iu/L ( previously 198 on 2/07/22)

-My impression is I was in calorie surplus too high for too long and Following a bulk for 5-6 months non stop, without a proper protocol for implementing GH,IGF1 LR3 and this lead to a degree of acute insulin resistance causing chronically elevated insulin levels, and the elevated insulin lead to a reduction in SHBG. I normally have fairly high SHBG 44.3 at points.

**( warning- Below , I’m going to be talking about my opinions on estrogen, so for those that find it to be a problem, I’d be willing to learn more from your point of view- however this is just where I’m at right now, and seems to be evidence to support my opinion on the matter ) ***

- I think this SHBG dropping down to 9.8 nmol/L is what caused my Estradiol to increase as much as it has by allowing more aromatase activity. However this T:E2 ratio still isn’t what I think could be optimal at 30:1. Or 3.2% E2 in pg/ml.

-I believe optimal levels of E2 in pg/ml to be closer to 6-8% the value of testosterone in ng/dl. 13:1 ratio to 16:1 ratio

-Before my T:E2 ratio was like 40:1 or 2% e2. So I’m glad to have the increase, but I think it will reverse again once I correct my elevated insulin and restore my SHBG.

-Also, my total T is only 1573.4 ng/dL. That sucks for being on 588mg Test E per week. Though I can’t be exactly sure my Testosterone isn’t under dosed, I think the low SHBG is the reason for this result. To rule some things out, I’m going to try and raise my SHBG by improving insulin sensitivity with protocols, as well as in the short term, switch to another brand of Testosterone Enanthate and maintain the same theoretically 588mg per week dose.
one other possibility, is I’ve seen anecdotes of people using SubQ shots and having their levels fall, and while i want trying to do subQ shots, I was frequently using 29g 1/2 needles to do ventroglute shots daily, and idk if maybe the pin wasn’t long enough, and combined with using the same site every day, lead to a large depot forming and slowly releasing at a rate slower than it could disperse into the blood stream.

 

[Alphalfa]

But ultimately, I began looking into blood tests and optimization

What you are calling "optimization" it is more like obsession, because ir order to optimize you have to know where you feel better and it seems you have not felt that never.

he thing I still notice though, is this stuck in quick sand type of feeling after waking up, very low physical energy and strength the first 3-4 hours after waking.

Your test is ok, it is nothing to do with it, have you checked your thyroid? Do you have any recent bloodwork? TSH, Free T4, T3, Free T3.
You might have sleep apnea, even more when you talked about the stupid bulk you did.

On 85mg Test E per day- 90mg Nandrolone Decanoate per day- and sometimes 50mg Tren A per day (10-15 days at a time on and off).


—4/01/22–
Total T: 1573.4 ng/dL
E2: 51.9 pg/mL
Insulin: 22.7 uiU/mL
SHBG: 9.8nmol/L (previously 21.9 on 2/07/22)
Prolactin: 25.5ng/mL (previously 5.9 on 2/07/22)
AST: 85 iu/L ( previously 117 on 2/07/22)
ALT: 105 iu/L ( previously 198 on 2/07/22)

So you are not even dialed for TRT and you are adding compounds like crazy, even the hardest one, Trenbolone, lmao, even pulsing it over the time.

If your bloodwork results for Total Testosterone and E2 are not ultra-sensible LC-MS/MS method, then they are not valid while using Nandrolone and Trenbolone.
Nandrolone will show up as Total Testosterone in bloodwork.
Trenbolone will be cross-identified with E2, giving a false elevated value.

By the way, your liver might be fucked, even more from your previous results, unless you trained the day before the bloodwork.

-My impression is I was in calorie surplus too high for too long and Following a bulk for 5-6 months non stop, without a proper protocol for implementing GH,IGF1 LR3 and this lead to a degree of acute insulin resistance causing chronically elevated insulin levels, and the elevated insulin lead to a reduction in SHBG. I normally have fairly high SHBG 44.3 at points.

Do not think that insulin resistance will lead to those levels of SHBG, trenbolone is probably the reason for your crushed SHBG. It happens with orals as well.

- I think this SHBG dropping down to 9.8 nmol/L is what caused my Estradiol to increase as much as it has by allowing more aromatase activity. However this T:E2 ratio still isn’t what I think could be optimal at 30:1. Or 3.2% E2 in pg/ml.

Obviously with lower SHBG there is more Free Testosterone and therefore more E2. But as I said Trenbolone could give you a fake elevation if your bloodwork E2 methos is not LC-MS/MS.

-I believe optimal levels of E2 in pg/ml to be closer to 6-8% the value of testosterone in ng/dl. 13:1 ratio to 16:1 ratio

There are not set ratios, it is up for each person, just recommended range of hormones and potential ratios.
Why do you believe those ratios are optimal? Based on what? Because you have not even experienced that wellness by yourself.
Last ratio I got was 45:1 and felt fantastic as I said, I have had lower ratios like 31:1 and felt exactly the same.

-Also, my total T is only 1573.4 ng/dL. That sucks for being on 588mg Test E per week. Though I can’t be exactly sure my Testosterone isn’t under dosed, I think the low SHBG is the reason for this result. To rule some things out, I’m going to try and raise my SHBG by improving insulin sensitivity with protocols, as well as in the short term, switch to another brand of Testosterone Enanthate and maintain the same theoretically 588mg per week dose.

You gear is underdosed as fuck or you simply do not know how to follow a pinning schedule, which at this point I am starting to belive.

Low SHBG has nothing to do with Total Testosterone, at least not to that point.
I have had crushed SHBG while using an oral, single digits SHBG, and Total Test was where I expected it to be, around 9-10x multiplier in trough.
Free Test is the one severely affected by SHBG.

one other possibility, is I’ve seen anecdotes of people using SubQ shots and having their levels fall, and while i want trying to do subQ shots, I was frequently using 29g 1/2 needles to do ventroglute shots daily, and idk if maybe the pin wasn’t long enough, and combined with using the same site every day, lead to a large depot forming and slowly releasing at a rate slower than it could disperse into the blood stream.

If that was the case, a SubQ leak, everything is absorbed via SubQ, so you will not feel any real difference. A slower absorption will not make that huge difference in values.
Regarding the pinning site, just rotate with other sites even more if you are on a daily/eod pinning schedule.


My honest opinion is that your problem is not hormone related, but mental. You seem to have some kind of behaviour problem, something related to extreme obsession, wheter it is an obsessive compulsive disorder or even something worse.
Some kind of mental paranoia, where you have to have everything in order, everything as your mind think it must be because you have read or you randomly think it is optimal/better. But totally random ideas without any base, that just appear in your mind and you set them as statements to follow.

Now I got what Para, from your username, is for: PARANOID

So, am I a weirdo ? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious and I’m just an idiot lol ?

Quoting you, literally a perfect quote.


Just a tip, checking how stable you seem to be:

UP THE TREN!

 

[Para_33]

What you are calling "optimization" it is more like obsession, because ir order to optimize you have to know where you feel better and it seems you have not felt that never.


Your test is ok, it is nothing to do with it, have you checked your thyroid? Do you have any recent bloodwork? TSH, Free T4, T3, Free T3.
You might have sleep apnea, even more when you talked about the stupid bulk you did.

So you are not even dialed for TRT and you are adding compounds like crazy, even the hardest one, Trenbolone, lmao, even pulsing it over the time.

If your bloodwork results for Total Testosterone and E2 are not ultra-sensible LC-MS/MS method, then they are not valid while using Nandrolone and Trenbolone.
Nandrolone will show up as Total Testosterone in bloodwork.
Trenbolone will be cross-identified with E2, giving a false elevated value.

By the way, your liver might be fucked, even more from your previous results, unless you trained the day before the bloodwork.

Do not think that insulin resistance will lead to those levels of SHBG, trenbolone is probably the reason for your crushed SHBG. It happens with orals as well.


Obviously with lower SHBG there is more Free Testosterone and therefore more E2. But as I said Trenbolone could give you a fake elevation if your bloodwork E2 methos is not LC-MS/MS.


There are not set ratios, it is up for each person, just recommended range of hormones and potential ratios.
Why do you believe those ratios are optimal? Based on what? Because you have not even experienced that wellness by yourself.
Last ratio I got was 45:1 and felt fantastic as I said, I have had lower ratios like 31:1 and felt exactly the same.


You gear is underdosed as fuck or you simply do not know how to follow a pinning schedule, which at this point I am starting to belive.

Low SHBG has nothing to do with Total Testosterone, at least not to that point.
I have had crushed SHBG while using an oral, single digits SHBG, and Total Test was where I expected it to be, around 9-10x multiplier in trough.
Free Test is the one severely affected by SHBG.


If that was the case, a SubQ leak, everything is absorbed via SubQ, so you will not feel any real difference. A slower absorption will not make that huge difference in values.
Regarding the pinning site, just rotate with other sites even more if you are on a daily/eod pinning schedule.


My honest opinion is that your problem is not hormone related, but mental. You seem to have some kind of behaviour problem, something related to extreme obsession, wheter it is an obsessive compulsive disorder or even something worse.
Some kind of mental paranoia, where you have to have everything in order, everything as your mind think it must be because you have read or you randomly think it is optimal/better. But totally random ideas without any base, that just appear in your mind and you set them as statements to follow.

Now I got what Para, from your username, is for: PARANOID


Quoting you, literally a perfect quote.


Just a tip, checking how stable you seem to be:

UP THE TREN!

E2 and T are lc/ms/ms


I was dialed on trt as much as my physiology allowed.

I want more e2 since it’s anabolic. As much as I can tolerate.

I pin daily, it’s pretty easy to follow for my limited mental capacity after my serva related brain injury

Thank you for the kind words though.

It’s hard to understand all words, but I think I take away your recommendation is to switch my test for Tren and increase the dosage ?

 

[valuum]

So I just got my first TRT bloodwork. T is 1027, E2 is 44. So about 23:1. I'm not trying to micromanage my levels or anything but that's good, right? I've never had bad E2 symptoms even when on 500mg test cycles. I know it's more a ratio thing than straight up number with E2. Is there any limit of E2 that's just too high regardless of ratio?

 

[Goingstronger]

So I just got my first TRT bloodwork. T is 1027, E2 is 44. So about 23:1. I'm not trying to micromanage my levels or anything but that's good, right? I've never had bad E2 symptoms even when on 500mg test cycles. I know it's more a ratio thing than straight up number with E2. Is there any limit of E2 that's just too high regardless of ratio?

How do you feel regarding:
-mood?
-joints?
-libido?

 

[Para_33]

So I just got my first TRT bloodwork. T is 1027, E2 is 44. So about 23:1. I'm not trying to micromanage my levels or anything but that's good, right? I've never had bad E2 symptoms even when on 500mg test cycles. I know it's more a ratio thing than straight up number with E2. Is there any limit of E2 that's just too high regardless of ratio?

I’ve heard from many anecdotes that above 75 pg/ml of E2 there is a diminishing returns effect that occurs for many people.

I would prefer your ratio for sure of 23:1 from my own which has been between 100:1-35:1 for sure haha.

I would say that you could potentially experiment and go closer to 18:1 or 15:1.
I’ve heard people I consider really experienced with managing themselves and others bloodwork recommend between 13:1 -18:1 as a ratio. This is just a general ratio/starting point though and there will be a degree of variability here.


Also would you mind sharing your dose/frequency protocol during this blood work ? - how many mg of testosterone per week/ injection frequency and if you take any AI/DHT derivatives?

Also do you know your SHBG at the time of this test too? I’m Curious to know And collecting anecdotes of how given ratios of T:E2 affect SHBG.

Thanks

 

[cmK9s33]

I don't know how to word this more politely, but you grossly misunderstand every material subject that you've touched upon with your errant reasoning. But that's OK! I appreciate your respect for my philosophy (you're correct insofar as that is my philosophy) - but you make spurious leaps based on misunderstandings of estrogens, reference ranges, purported cardiovascular benefits, etc. of exogenous estrogens vs. aromatic products produced by in situ aromatization in men. You are NOT alone in these delusions, there is a decent forum dealing specifically with this subject matter called the Excel Male forums. Have you checked them out? Because they might be more in line (though also sharing in erroneous beliefs) with your, as you put it, philosophy. Check that forum out, it might be more up your alley brother.

So, I wanted to ask your opinion on a different way of looking at this. I have the same issue as the OP. I aromatize very small amounts of E2 from exogenous test. When I last used 400mg of test/wk, my E2 was 9pg/ml. I routinely have had results of <2.5pg/ml while using 200mg/wk. And I never use any AI. I mistakenly did once several years ago (and it was only 12.5mg of aromasin 3 total times). That's the extent of my AI use.

Another note, whenever I've had my IGF-1 tested, it's always been below 100. I never had my GH tested, but it was from 3 of the more popular sources here at Meso (if that means anything for this discussion).

So, absent adding exogenous E2, how would you suggest addressing this? Honestly. Adding more testosterone seems fine for a cycle but for long term TRT/HRT is obviously not a wise choice. I thought it was well established that estradiol is important and necessary for good CV health and an assortment of other processes.

 

[Type-IIx]

So, I wanted to ask your opinion on a different way of looking at this. I have the same issue as the OP. I aromatize very small amounts of E2 from exogenous test. When I last used 400mg of test/wk, my E2 was 9pg/ml. I routinely have had results of <2.5pg/ml while using 200mg/wk. And I never use any AI. I mistakenly did once several years ago (and it was only 12.5mg of aromasin 3 total times). That's the extent of my AI use.

Another note, whenever I've had my IGF-1 tested, it's always been below 100. I never had my GH tested, but it was from 3 of the more popular sources here at Meso (if that means anything for this discussion).

So, absent adding exogenous E2, how would you suggest addressing this? Honestly. Adding more testosterone seems fine for a cycle but for long term TRT/HRT is obviously not a wise choice. I thought it was well established that estradiol is important and necessary for good CV health and an assortment of other processes.

9 pg/mL is fairly low - but I'd prefer to have this degree of aromatization at 400 mg testosterone weekly than to have 50+ pg/mL at that dose. What I am saying is that you're healthy/normal & can indeed titrate up the dose for blasts, just don't think 250 mg+ weekly of testosterone is ever a cruise.

The principal concern is lipid management (secondarily, PERHAPS dependent upon symptomology of course, bone metabolism) if E2 is very low on a sane cruise dose of T. You might consider certain phytochemicals to deal with this.

Now, I can talk at length about GH response/the increase in serum IGF-I but it's something that'd be discussed on an individualized basis with more info privately if we were to do a consult. Basically, there is some interaction between aromatization and IGF-I as well as genetic factors that influence GH response. There are methods to increase IGF-I bioavailability, etc. But I wouldn't just discuss this back and forth on the board, I'd just be willing to work with you privately if you want to ever do a consult, you could just message me about it.

 

[Dr JIM]

1) For It’s more so the thinking that estrogen is anabolic. Just like Testosterone

2) I’m taking this stuff to help build muscle, I want that to be as affective as possible.

3) The estrogen receptor alpha and beta both responsible for anabolism as well as collagen synthesis.

4) Would you disagree with that ?

1) Absolutely not

2) NUTS

3) Play an undetermined and ill defined role in MALES w age appropriate TT levels.

4) Absolutely

 

[Para_33]

1) Absolutely not

2) NUTS

3) Play an undetermined and ill defined role in MALES w age appropriate TT levels.

4) Absolutely

So, I wanted to ask your opinion on a different way of looking at this. I have the same issue as the OP. I aromatize very small amounts of E2 from exogenous test. When I last used 400mg of test/wk, my E2 was 9pg/ml. I routinely have had results of <2.5pg/ml while using 200mg/wk. And I never use any AI. I mistakenly did once several years ago (and it was only 12.5mg of aromasin 3 total times). That's the extent of my AI use.

Another note, whenever I've had my IGF-1 tested, it's always been below 100. I never had my GH tested, but it was from 3 of the more popular sources here at Meso (if that means anything for this discussion).

So, absent adding exogenous E2, how would you suggest addressing this? Honestly. Adding more testosterone seems fine for a cycle but for long term TRT/HRT is obviously not a wise choice. I thought it was well established that estradiol is important and necessary for good CV health and an assortment of other processes.

There are several ways besides exogenous E2, some combination of HCG, DHEA and Pregnenolone.

exogenous E2, is worth being studied and investigated further.

Honestly, there was a day not long ago where guys were crushing their estrogen with AI because it was in fashion and also the mentality of “why would I need estrogen bro, that’s for girls, all it does it grow tits”.

Then gradually the fashion changed. And more and more people are accepting of the idea of letting estrogen do it’s thing and be in a range where the person feels best. Because as an ethos, much of this area is a “lifestyle “ endeavor, and much of it can be seen in the forum of trends and stigma to certain ideas. Until someone figures something out that’s new, who’s well respected, only then will people begin to change their mind.

Independent thinking with regard to original and new hormone protocols isn’t something That most people are/ or even should be interested in. Because at the end of the day, people want results, and for the most part their going to get them. Health comes secondary, or not at all, and it’s a trade off many people think is required to come with the territory. When much of it is uneeded risk.

I’m not condoning the use for anybody, but I really can’t see how estrogen has less potential to improve certain things compared to all the other shit guys take.


Also, though science is always subject to change, and is not a consensus driven activity. The consensus is very solid. Estrogen is anabolic. That’s a fact. I welcome citizen researches to do their own experiments though. Take baseline blood work, measure progress, then repeat changing the variable of added estradiol. If it does nothing or makes gains worse- interesting, but warrants further investigation by more subjects.

 

[Para_33]

So, I wanted to ask your opinion on a different way of looking at this. I have the same issue as the OP. I aromatize very small amounts of E2 from exogenous test. When I last used 400mg of test/wk, my E2 was 9pg/ml. I routinely have had results of <2.5pg/ml while using 200mg/wk. And I never use any AI. I mistakenly did once several years ago (and it was only 12.5mg of aromasin 3 total times). That's the extent of my AI use.

Another note, whenever I've had my IGF-1 tested, it's always been below 100. I never had my GH tested, but it was from 3 of the more popular sources here at Meso (if that means anything for this discussion).

So, absent adding exogenous E2, how would you suggest addressing this? Honestly. Adding more testosterone seems fine for a cycle but for long term TRT/HRT is obviously not a wise choice. I thought it was well established that estradiol is important and necessary for good CV health and an assortment of other processes.

In terms of Igf 1 improvement a start would be . Check micronutrients- liver health- insulin sensitivity.

A mini diet/ mini metformin protocol might be useful.

Estradiol increases igf1 too. So anyway you can raise it, very well is likely to improve igf1 and igf1 receptor sensitivity.

 

[Goingstronger]

So, I wanted to ask your opinion on a different way of looking at this. I have the same issue as the OP. I aromatize very small amounts of E2 from exogenous test. When I last used 400mg of test/wk, my E2 was 9pg/ml. I routinely have had results of <2.5pg/ml while using 200mg/wk. And I never use any AI. I mistakenly did once several years ago (and it was only 12.5mg of aromasin 3 total times). That's the extent of my AI use.

Another note, whenever I've had my IGF-1 tested, it's always been below 100. I never had my GH tested, but it was from 3 of the more popular sources here at Meso (if that means anything for this discussion).

So, absent adding exogenous E2, how would you suggest addressing this? Honestly. Adding more testosterone seems fine for a cycle but for long term TRT/HRT is obviously not a wise choice. I thought it was well established that estradiol is important and necessary for good CV health and an assortment of other processes.

Transdermal testosterone cream will give you more e2.

 

[AromasinSucks]

I'm in the same boat as you, and it's funny how people usually either laugh at us or tell us how lucky we are to have subpar e2.
My condition started after a year of exemestane use at various doses.
It's been now 4 years I haven't touched a pill of exemestane, and I still have low e2 issues.
I began TRT for the exact same reason as you did: low e2, with a total T of 800ng/dl, but low free T of 10 (8-40 range).

It has made my life immensely better, it improved all the things that were trashed: joints, libido, mood.
But it isn't as before yet, with a cruise dose of 300mg/week to get my e2 to acceptable levels.

Disregard @Dr JIM 's comments, he does the same thing with every thread: a vague, misconstructed critique, with no solution. He is not even a doctor.

I’m in the same boat Aromasin fucked me up and now my estrogen is permanently low (18 pg/mL). Not sure if I should hop on TRT or try hcg first.

 

[Goingstronger]

I’m in the same boat Aromasin fucked me up and now my estrogen is permanently low (18 pg/mL). Not sure if I should hop on TRT or try hcg first.

Have you taken anything else around the time you took aromasin : a hep vaccine or minoxidil ?