Bet You Guys Want To Know What Liver Supp I Am Taking. Lol, Check This Shit Out..!!!!

[BBC3]

And I am kinda ashamed to say it now, cause its my MO to not hold back around here. But I was scared shitless when I first got the news.

About one month ago I did some standard blood work with doc. CBC was the one that fuked my head up bad and liver counts to be precise. I am no doc and will explain as best I can and for review of docs here (or anyone knowledgeable). I have the labs now, but still cant even handle the info to look yet. I saw briefly and here is the lowdown. On basic CBC liver counts ALT and AST were like 150 and 180. Yes the ones with ref ranges 40-60.. So I was LIKE HOLY SHIT ...! I've finally taken myself out with all my substance hijinks - RIGHT..? Doc assured me in some calming manner that since the other liver readings were normal, that it was most likely temporary if I straitened up. I was like OK, so you are telling me shit is bad, I probably won't change my life, and FYI your end is nearing. I was scared cause I knew I would not/could not. So get a load of this...!

I went back in yesterday for another issue. I was not planning to do lab work yesterday cause of other issue, and we had agreed to wait a little longer before re-addressing liver. But on the way down there I had what I consider an "outer box epiphany". I decided to talk him into doing Bloodz EVEN THOUGH I WAS NOT FASTED. Cause I was thinking that well, if my liver counts were shit a month ago, and I have not changed a thing, then this should be a fucking freak show when these numbers come back right?? LOL - YOU know ME.. LOL Well, the long and short is that I did the liver panel again yesterday, and he just told me my numbers are now "NORMAL RANGE". Yea you heard me...

Now - Here's the kicker, and two reasons that may have skewed ALT & AST falsely low...:

1) I am wondering if this liver supp is somehow skewing the numbers falsely low. On that, note that while I took it religiously for like 20 days or so, I ran out a week ago. I have been taking SAM-e for the first time ever for about 3 days now - FYI and not the supp I am focusing on here.

2) And get this. I drank a beer in the parking lot prior to going into office yesterday. Lots of fucking laughing here I can see yur faces now as you read. So not only did I not really change my habits all that much, I actually iced the cake immediately prior to labs...! At least I thought..

So I am actually thinking that either these liver supps are giving false readings, or have a been in my 30 mins before drawing blood has given me a "false good indication" so to speak. So I am not over confident.

And to give a little more history. When I first met my doc, I did not know him. This was 10 years ago. But I was already "leaving the box" so to speak at that time - I just did not know it. And on that first meet, just to get a rise out of him and to "test him" to see how we gell'd, I kept a dip of copenhagen in my mouth for that fateful first encounter (European upper lip) and when he was looking in my mouth I dragged it down to let him see I had been hiding it and to fuk with his head to see how he responded. LOL When I did this back then, his response was only "so what brand is that, I prefer copenhagen" - I laughed and advised that it WAS copenhagen.... The rest is history... And now while I thought yesterday to top myself off at a new all time high that I would put that beer in an open cup and walk into to the hospital practice with it and carry into office - I realized that it would have no value to him as he would be expecting it, and that it would only get me negative attention from others who I DONT KNOW or trust. Hence the reason for drinking in parking lot. LOL

Back on the liver for a last second. From my physical standpoint in my "anecdotal world" that some of you around here appear to despise so much, my current self analysis is as follows. While I have realized that I am not in touch with my body as well as I used to be, and BECAUSE of drugs and alcohol, I now KNOW that my own thoughts can not be trusted. But the breakdown is as follows. Upon about the first two days of initiating this liver supp back a month ago, I FELT my liver swelling go down immediately subsiding from a physical TOUCH standpoint. Also whatever "General feelings" I was having that prompted me to go in a month ago, were immediately subsiding with the initiation of this supp.. Like I said - I did not change habits, but still only knew I needed to. So I was kinda thinking well shit, the reduction in liver size and feeling better could not possibly correlate with an improvement in liver function this fast. NO FUCKING WAY right?? And its very hard to be the judge of one's self THIS I KNOW NOW. I will also add that yesterday, he actually put me up on the "dreaded table" to feel my liver. I did not even realize what he had done sneaking this in on me, until I was in the car leaving... LOL But once I had left, I already had realize a calm coming over my mind that my liver was indeed again "normal", and just from the reconciliation in my mind about the "feel" he just got in the exam room... So I knew. It was only 30 minutes ago that he advised me liver counts were normal. So how do all the "technical anecdote hate'N experts" around here feel about this?? And I am not taunting either. I want to know..! Please give me some feedback now... Cause I know enough about this world to KNOW to knock on wood alwayz. I also know that EVEN if the liver reads are correct, and my liver is now indeed fine and even being protected by this supp, that just the same I could get hit by a car tomorrow, or diagnosed with cancer next month.. LOL But I KNOW Fate is FATE. And DESTINY - It is a BITCH...!

*** And NO - I have not sold out. I am NOT a paid Sponser and never will be. Should I ever for some reason I can not foresee become one, you can be ASSURED you will here is first here @ MESO...! LOL, but that whole statement and acknowledgement is such a crazy set up I almost can't believe what I just wrote. LOL. But its all true I swear it on my grave whenever that may come...

 

[tendency]

lol. you certainly have a way with words.

 

[Drea'An]

Interesting story. I put together my own blend of liver support from various supplements.
Works pretty well.

 

[TheronB]

NAC is the only one worth taking IMO.

 

[toolman]

BBC what caused the elevated ALT AST to begin with. Do you have any drinking issues or were you taking a lot of NSAID's? Sorry if it is mentioned in your tome, I swore of reading lengthy reports when I retired.

 

[Dr JIM]

NAC is the only one worth taking IMO.

NAC is a well recognized antidote for acetaminophen OD.
It's use has saved thousands from serious hepatic injury, IF given within the first 8 hrs post ingestion.
(Some toxicologists believe there's possible benefit for up to 72 hours)

It works by maintaining glutathione stores thereby ELIMINATING the use of a SECONDARY HEPATOTOXIC PATHWAY.

However since AAS use is NOT associated with the diversion of substrate into this SECONDARY "APAP" metabolic pathway, NAC is essentially WORTHLESS as an "hepatic protector"!

But some feel the need to use something, rather than do that which is proven effective, limit the quantity and duration of 17 Alkyl oral AAS exposure to NO MORE THAN 4-6 WEEKS!

 

[TheronB]

Well damn, thanks for clarifying that.

I guess plenty of water and 4-6 weeks max is the way to go then.

I've seen some tests before that showed some liver supplements actually put more stress on the liver.

 

[BBC3]

To be frank on the product, and really I was just digging to see how many of us here have ever smelled that brand of coffee? That is, how many have ever had an insane lab serum count out of the blue. I will expound on the why in another response here next. But the product was simply the capsule made by NOW Nutrition/Foods (or whatever there full name is/ the orange and white bottles). The NAME of the Product is - Now Foods Liver Detoxifier & Regenerator.

Again, I was mainly trolling for a head count. And I was/am surprised to see that few have had enough concern.?!?! Perhaps I guess everyone has just had their business in check and I was the one not.. LOL

Interesting story. I put together my own blend of liver support from various supplements.
Works pretty well.

 

[BBC3]

@ Toolman for quick answer - Yes, I was drinking 12-16 cheap shit Mikes Brand Margarita drinks a day for 6 months steady...

LONG ANSWER (BBC Style..:

Well, I do like to indulge in some alcohol daily. I have also spent a number of years attempting to turn pro, but never made it apparently. I did manage to make the headlines a time or two, and got a couple of trophies and plaques on the mantle all told. LOL. My standard M.O. as for when I currently self-describe as "not drinking", is 2-3 lightweight beers per day. So in these times its 2-3 light beers scattered throughout the day more like self medicating/stress mitigation. The really wild part of all this, and with consideration of all my years experience drinking was the paradigm shift to UNDERSTANDING NOW that for me - alcohol is just another "club in the bag" in this round called LIFE. So with current alcohol experience level now bringing forth the knowledge of the reality of what "setting my mind to get drunk" really means, I have no more false precedence to get "hammered by accident"!!! lol. Still, this reconciliation occurred ONLY Long after the self-acknowledgment that we are all really out to dull some kind of demon and via the use of another one..

I don't use NSAIDs except on occasion, and there are not many other things I cram down my gluttonous gullet which are heavily taxing on kidneys. So the best we can figure is that these cheap ass Mike's Margaritas that the sell in a 24oz can became a big thing from me for about a year. There reason being was that I did not really care for them, and they hit with some punching power at 8% by vol. But the truth in the end of all that 2-3 months back, was that I was really putting down 3-4 of them a day. Which was working out to (#6-8) 12oz drinks (@8%).... So, if you then break the math down further, you've really got the equivalent to (4) Big Boys, OR (8) 12oz heavy hitters, OR 16 regular beers...! Yea, so a bit of lying was occurring and self-delusion I specialize.

Here is the Potential Medical Epiphany of it all. It may very well turn out that SIMPLE SUGARs combined with sugar based alcohol* (of course but hang on), SYNERGIZES to create a liver killing MOFO...! So maybe there was something other than "weight control" this older guy I knew whom drank his bourbon with Diet Cokes..! Cause in the past when I was really slugging, but I was primarily drinking (#10-12) 8-12% Good beers, but without of that "Free sugar" I guess you could call it. But none of that hammering of good beer and with even a tequila shot or two tossed in the mix, my liver never flipped out like this..!

As for the "non-preferred" Mikes Harders, they are nothing but cheap-ass, cheap suger derived, cheap sugar added to flavor, yyeeuuk...! (side note if ya ever see a little 4 pack of 8oz of something called "Mikaritas", GRAB EM they are good stuff!- LOL) But the "Mikes Harder" brand out there are doable, and only cause they have to increase the flavoring to hide all the cheap alcohol when escalating it up from 5% to 8%.

*And regarding the note about about when I referenced ("Sugar Based Alcohol"). As we know that all drinking alcohol comes from yeast cultured in SUGAR. But the long and short from a potential medical science standpoint would be..:

1) Does drinking cheap alcohol vs. better grade have a different effect on liver?
2) Does consuming alcoholic beverages WHILE ADDING really large amounts of simple sugars have some kind of exponential stress effect to the Liver.?
3) Does adding any kind of sugar as a "mixed drink" now synergize into a "Liver Killer" which is exponentially worse than drinking the alcohol alone?

** The third case study would be my suspicion for some interesting results, and which really speaks volumes about potentially UNNECESSARILY harming the liver when indulging in alcoholic beverages for pleasure. In short(and disregarding any potential harm from artificial sweeteners), should all our mixed drinks be made with artificial sweeteners for best overall health when drinking...!

So I will get back on this one once I have done some research as to studies on various alcohol consumption and effects on folks... But I can tell you I will avoid adding any simple sugar to mixed drinks in future from here on..!

BBC what caused the elevated ALT AST to begin with. Do you have any drinking issues or were you taking a lot of NSAID's? Sorry if it is mentioned in your tome, I swore of reading lengthy reports when I retired.

 

[toolman]

As you did not add any cliff note versions I actually read through it. Here is my observation as a non medical professional.

1. From my understanding the primary danger of the sugar with the alcohol combined is not the liver (sugar I mean), but the increase of insulin resistance. What kind of glucose numbers are you getting when you fast. My guess would be pretty high at a consumption rate like that. I also remember reading somewhere that drinking raises your estrogen levels but I will let a doc advise or correct that info.

2. Your drinking is definitely a problem. I am throwing no stones as I fell into the same rut my first year of retirement. I always enjoyed my martinis but after retirement I would enjoy more than a couple each night. It is amazing how quickly you start to make that mistake and then you lie to yourself saying it wasn't that much. Im retired, money in the bank and fully functional so I did not notice anything. It was my doc when my AST and ALT numbers started to climb. He told me to see if I could go a week without a drink, then a month. I did and only after I stopped that first week, did I realize how much better I felt every morning. Then by the end of that month the last few abs that weren't showing for the last many years, finally started to show. I have since given up my nightly martinis and only drink one night a week and stop at 3. I thought it would be harder than it was but it really wasn't.

The greatest part about the liver is it is self healing if you stop the behavior that causes it prior to cirrhosis. In a month my numbers were low normal and I fully intend to live long enough to spend as much of my money as I can before I pass it along to the kids. But I have to say, as a guy who enjoyed drinking a lot, I do not miss it at all and I really enjoy the effects of not drinking...with the exception of being totally sober during some dinner conversations with my wife...

 

[BBC3]

Thanks for the reply. Good thoughts.

** Did ya know that if you are a young heathly athletic 21 year old and your normal blood sugar levels are 100, that if you drink a six pack of beer and have nothing more, you can test and find your blood sugar will be down to about 60...! Some fool I met somewhere told me that once...

- And some folks wondered why they got fat on alcohol based candies.

- And some folks still wonder why all these little 6-10 year old fatties running round the Ipod room are fat when mamas been stuffin their baba with the finest in bastardized artificial sweeteners.!

You would be surprised how involved the liver gets with sugar/carbs/ all of it actually. However, most of us do first tend to think of the pancreas which produces the insulin which our cells require for a nice healthy fire stokin... The KEY to the Main Sugar Street Side Entrance if you will. And so much more to the pancreas and insulin as it not only directly involves with the whole orchestra at the cell, but IT MUST have many cohorts, partners, enemies, family, and strangers to deal with start to finish. I think a good look at how some other form factors FEEDBACK to pancreas for insulin production could come from so many vectors, that its not even worth dream'n... Of Gleam'n.. At east for me at this time...

My Pancreas, and knock wood is a mantle piece, or at least has been. Blood sugar levels can run right around 100 all day long on average diet, and then blast a pizza and up to 120. But STILL only 120 in 45 more minutes, and STILL only 120, in even another 45 mins. So while they want to know what your pancreas and insulin production look like fasted, they also like to see them running normally, and especially under a load, finally HOW LONG can that load be endured. And the process is much grander that chewing bubble gum to see whether your pancreas whacks out before you get a TMJ Disorder... Keep in mind that BLOOD SUGAR MEASUREMENTS as "normal" for intervals as STRESS TESTING are not necessarily STRICTLY PANCREAS and INSULIN PERTAINING. I am not so sure that the bodies of atheletes can not store quite a bit of simple sugar if digested, and perhaps not utilize insuline that way many would think. But thats it too in a nutshell, as we also use insulin to turn sugar to FAT TOO.

Which TIES the TWO TOGETHER, as the liver and it's ENZYMES Produced and the manner which Simple sugars actually turn to fat, round about, and in direct as well/ So I suspect. But The liver is a bad ass mofo as he makes many of the enzymes in the body for many functions including sex hormone related. And yes, I have heard, speculate same, and agree with you that - if you heard a poor liver can make a set of titties stand up and perk, the we all heard the same thing...! LOL But the liver can turn bitchez to beasts, and beasts to bitchez, now cant it...!

On "Insulin Resistance", any simple sugar which prompts a quick insulin production response expedites the body's learning curve when it comes to producing insulin, OR NOT. So, break out a nice CokeCola / and insulin is a spurtin out everyone where like me when I was 15 trying to get it out of my shorts to stick it in the prom queen's, sisters', husbands' cousins', ex-father-in-law's daughter... But he was out of town...! But the more you work the shit out of that system, the less it is going to perform correctly. So while I am not sure if insulin response resistance is the result of the failure of the pancreas to produce enough overall insulin for the job, or just to get it out there in time, or perhaps even another enzyme, element, or who knows what that triggers all this to work in symphony. No one really knows... Cause all we can do is count sugars in blood and then reverse cypher - WHERE THE HELL IS THE INSULIN DAMNIT.!! But we are not even sure if the insulin is working right when produced (RNA-wise) and what conditions may play that crap in ..

** yes it has kept me fat as a shit ass cow. Fuck it. and yes when I truly cut out drinks like NOW, I can drop 20-30 lbs with very limited range of movement required.. LOL

** Yes my liver counts resemble fatty liver which is cirrhosis if left ENFLAMED and NASTY. And no I dont want that. Hence the NOW Product... (Its never to late ya know... LOL)

As for the kids, just tell em look ya little fuckers, you think Im giving Sammy 65% of my hard earned dollars... Sheeeeiiitttt.! Start a small corp and put on the payroll. You can call it. I PLAY_YOU WORK_NOW, LLC Then hit em with a "Patent Pending Biiiiooooccchhheheee...!! YYEeeeeeaeeaaahaahhh BOoiyyyyyyyyy!?!?!!!

I see where you mention the EFFECTS of NOT DRINKING.... You could flip that one more spin and also come up with NOT Drinking for NO EFFECT..... "Mannnnn! I ain't drinking for no effect!!!"

And does the liver "regenerate Itself" truly, and does it just shake off the damage I wonder...? And perhaps that scarring from the the lieu disease prevents the shake off...?

- Word to the wise... keep them golf tees out of your mouth unless you want to find out the leading cause of Pancreatic Cancer the hard way.. And whilst yur staggering around out there in the summer heat talkin all that shit about how that beer is so nasty, and knowing you got one in the fridge hiding from the wife, dont spray that herbicide into the wind. Its a nono... LOL But really for me, I prefer to sit in on the couch, watch her get pissed that I am not mowing the yard. Then when I dont take the bait and she starts to attack the children, I write extensive love poems in my head with strong visual intent... LOL

As you did not add any cliff note versions I actually read through it. Here is my observation as a non medical professional.

1. From my understanding the primary danger of the sugar with the alcohol combined is not the liver (sugar I mean), but the increase of insulin resistance. What kind of glucose numbers are you getting when you fast. My guess would be pretty high at a consumption rate like that. I also remember reading somewhere that drinking raises your estrogen levels but I will let a doc advise or correct that info.

2. Your drinking is definitely a problem. I am throwing no stones as I fell into the same rut my first year of retirement. I always enjoyed my martinis but after retirement I would enjoy more than a couple each night. It is amazing how quickly you start to make that mistake and then you lie to yourself saying it wasn't that much. Im retired, money in the bank and fully functional so I did not notice anything. It was my doc when my AST and ALT numbers started to climb. He told me to see if I could go a week without a drink, then a month. I did and only after I stopped that first week, did I realize how much better I felt every morning. Then by the end of that month the last few abs that weren't showing for the last many years, finally started to show. I have since given up my nightly martinis and only drink one night a week and stop at 3. I thought it would be harder than it was but it really wasn't.

The greatest part about the liver is it is self healing if you stop the behavior that causes it prior to cirrhosis. In a month my numbers were low normal and I fully intend to live long enough to spend as much of my money as I can before I pass it along to the kids. But I have to say, as a guy who enjoyed drinking a lot, I do not miss it at all and I really enjoy the effects of not drinking...with the exception of being totally sober during some dinner conversations with my wife...

 

[Kinikuman]

Does drinking cheap alcohol vs. better grade have a different effect on liver?

Not sure about cheap vs. high grade alcohol(higher quality does probably have less impurities), but according to a guy I know who researches alcohol, distilled spirits are considerable harder on the 'ole bile ducts than wine or beer in equal amounts - that is, one fl/oz of distilled @ 40% compared with 5 fl/oz. of a hearty stout @ 8%. Something about the distilling process makes it kick harder - in more ways than one.

 

[toolman]

BBC if your labs indicate possible fatty liver you should have that diagnosis confirmed and stop drinking yesterday!!!

 

[hardasnails1973]

I prefer to use iv 100 grams vitamin c ,glutathione, nac, alpha lipoic acid, with synergistic nutrients to keep things from oxidizing..just have to careful of making sure osmolarity is not off too much or be walking around like captain jack Sparrow. .lol

On days off I use curcumin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22751848/

phosphocholine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14523817/

starting iv PC in 8 weeks.
Being a partner in a medically supervised facility does have its advantages

 

[BBC3]

Nice reply. Yes, I get that too. And all alcohol is MORE THAN different. For example BROWN BOURBONS have more METHANOL from the wood fermenting involving which liver don't like even. BUT ON YOUR POINT. You are correct that while I HAVE WEIGHED and BELIEVE ME weight the old "percentage by vol" comparison test as wine to beer to liQUER, I WILL TELL YOU THIS MY FRIEND. You can add grain alcohol to koolaid all day long in the proportions which would EQUATE to 13-14%, and MASS-IN-ACTION... They Ain't NARN the same....!!! You are correct...!

Which was actually one of my points..! Thank you...!

Not sure about cheap vs. high grade alcohol(higher quality does probably have less impurities), but according to a guy I know who researches alcohol, distilled spirits are considerable harder on the 'ole bile ducts than wine or beer in equal amounts - that is, one fl/oz of distilled @ 40% compared with 5 fl/oz. of a hearty stout @ 8%. Something about the distilling process makes it kick harder - in more ways than one.

 

[BBC3]

But see did you read any of the initial posts. What I said was DID... DID look like fatty liver. The next month LIVER COUNTS WERE PERFECTLY NORMAL....! How can this be...??

BBC if your labs indicate possible fatty liver you should have that diagnosis confirmed and stop drinking yesterday!!!