Blood Pressure

[Ferenor]

138/66 today

Nice mate. I hope it gets better for all of us

 

[malfeasance]

139/78

It was 164/99 a few minutes previously when I had to pee and decided to wait and take my blood pressure instead . . .

Seriously considering right now whether to drop bodybuilding as a hobby. I am in my 50s.

750 test
375 deca
5 iu hgh

80 mg telmisartan

Moderate cardio three times a week, heart rate gets up over 140 during the high intervals, stays around 130 or more for more than 20 minutes

Eating 4000 calories a day

Weigh 236 pounds

Trying to add stage weight for this year, especially to legs (difficult, but making progress).

Hrmph. <---- Grumpy old man grunt

 

[malfeasance]

I am open to suggestions, advice, words of encouragement, whether it is, "Quit bodybuilding, don't be an idiot!" or "Your blood pressure is nothing" or "Hey, you have overlooked this one thing" or whatever.

I really enjoy this, but I don't want to wreck my kidneys like Bostin Lloyd did (along with several other more well known bodybuilders and who knows how many middle aged steroid using gym rats whose names we have never heard).

 

[Bumpygooch]

I am open to suggestions, advice, words of encouragement, whether it is, "Quit bodybuilding, don't be an idiot!" or "Your blood pressure is nothing" or "Hey, you have overlooked this one thing" or whatever.

I really enjoy this, but I don't want to wreck my kidneys like Bostin Lloyd did (along with several other more well known bodybuilders and who knows how many middle aged steroid using gym rats whose names we have never heard).

How long have you been bulking? I’ve come to the same fork in the road at 47(no stage desire) with the recent destruction of my shoulder. As Dan the BB from Thailand has said about doing this shit, “it’s a hassle.” It certainly is. Between fishing for your own reactions to things, like prop and sustanon causing me to do blood dumps frequently, even at TRT doses, while over 800mg of cyp for 17 weeks, only needed one dump. Trying to determine which orals are best, because my cholesterol is genetically a mess. Liver values always elevated, get my balls broken about both liver and CHO. Then my eGFR comes in at 54. Now my lifelong low BP runs high. The anxiety of it I’m sure it worse than the actual condition. Every time you take something you’re concerned you’re hurting yourself. I had none of this same anxiety before starting TRT(B&C subsequently), lifting 5x/week doing bro splits and drinking beers when I felt like it. Seems stupid sometimes.

 

[malfeasance]

How long have you been bulking?

Won a contest in the fall. Dropped everything for a few weeks then ran 150mg a week of testosterone for months. Ate everything in sight, though, way off diet, and kept working out.

Started a more serious bulk a few weeks ago, once my blood test cholesterol results showed good again (they were wrecked precontest).

I am already making good, visible progress. I have never weighed this much without being much fatter.

So I am wavering between encouraged at my prospects for winning later in 2021 and discouraged by my blood pressure. Winning a state level bodybuilding contest simply would not be worth it if I end up on dialysis.

So I am trying to figure out if I am still within an acceptable range of risk. It might just be that at my age this is no longer a good idea.

I had hoped to control my blood pressure and maybe push the testosterone up to a gram or slightly more if progress stalled to keep adding weight (along with increases in food, of course). But now I am leaning 50/50 to simply doing 100 mg of test a week from now on and forgetting about bodybuilding. That would suck, but I do not want to wreck my health. The hesitation is that I am just not sure whether I am wrecking my health.

 

[Bumpygooch]

Won a contest in the fall. Dropped everything for a few weeks then ran 150mg a week of testosterone for months. Ate everything in sight, though, way off diet, and kept working out.

Started a more serious bulk a few weeks ago, once my blood test cholesterol results showed good again (they were wrecked precontest).

I am already making good, visible progress. I have never weighed this much without being much fatter.

So I am wavering between encouraged at my prospects for winning later in 2021 and discouraged by my blood pressure. Winning a state level bodybuilding contest simply would not be worth it if I end up on dialysis.

So I am trying to figure out if I am still within an acceptable range of risk. It might just be that at my age this is no longer a good idea.

I had hoped to control my blood pressure and maybe push the testosterone up to a gram or slightly more if progress stalled to keep adding weight (along with increases in food, of course). But now I am leaning 50/50 to simply doing 100 mg of test a week from now on and forgetting about bodybuilding. That would suck, but I do not want to wreck my health. The hesitation is that I am just not sure whether I am wrecking my health.

Have you noticed a correlation between elevated BP and high HCT? I have. I think that’s my problem now. Haven’t dumped since October and my HCT was 53 a month ago, and my BP seems to be sitting above where it would be, despite being 12% bf. Typically when I’m this lean, my BP would run low. I haven’t dumped because I can’t drive yet. Perhaps that’s your issue.

 

[Ferenor]

My bp while running telmisartan is 140/70. Before it was 160/95. It may be estrogen because I'm running just 250 mg of Test... need to do some blood work I guess.

 

[Cmillis]

My bp has increased once I hit 50 and I’m eating clean, good cardio, otc supplements( magnesium, Hawthorne berry, fish oils, etc...) , little sodium, good potassium intake

I was able to control it with one bp medication but when my weight gets over 230 I need to add another bp med and sometimes a 3rd when I get near 230

not sure if you want to add another prescription med. people who struggle with bp sometimes need a ,cocktail, of meds to keep it in control as they get older. Granted AAS exasperates the problem for most

 

[Millard]

Hematocrit isn't a bad thing. Higher hematocrit percentages are associated with increased endurance and enhanced recovery. I am not sure what the optimal percentage should be for performance enhancement. Something around 50% - near the top or slightly above 'normal' range should be good

So while bloodletting can lower blood pressure, I'd seek the advice of a medical professional to manage hypertension.

Steroid users understandably have a distrust of doctors since the medical community has historically been behind the curve when it comes to PED use and side effect management and/or have allowed moral judgments to interfere with appropriate treatment.

But most medical professionals are competent when it comes to management of hypertension.

Having said that, donating a pint of blood usually results in a decrease of 2-3 percentage points for hematocrit. The reduced hematocrit decreases viscosity and lowers blood pressure.

Does anyone have any references for papers documenting the relationship between blood donation, hematocrit and blood pressure?

I cam across this one that gives clues to relationship:

Effect of hematocrit on blood pressure via hyperviscosity​

Yıldırım Çınar, Gamze Demir, Mustafa Paç, Ayşe Başak Çınar
American Journal of Hypertension, Volume 12, Issue 7, July 1999, Pages 739–743, Effect of hematocrit on blood pressure via hyperviscosity
Published:

01 July 1999

Abstract​

Increase in blood viscosity, defined as resistance to flow, is one factor in hypertension and atherosclerosis that contributes to the morbidity and mortality associated with tissue ischemia. In this research we evaluated the effect of hematocrit on increasing viscosity, and possible related changes in blood pressure, flow rate, and the equivalent physiologic compensation ratios. Blood samples were taken from 32 healthy individuals and centrifuged for 5 min at 3000 rpm to obtain 2.5 mL of erythrocyte mass from each. Then, at each step 0.5 mL of plasma was consecutively added in a total of 17 steps. The resultant hematocrit and viscosity changes were measured. Viscosity measurement was performed by capillary viscometer. The results were evaluated by the Student t test. It was observed that in the range of 60.16% and 25.32%, a 10.99% increase of hematocrit produced an increase of 1 unit relative viscosity, which means approximately a 20% increase in blood viscosity for a healthy individual. According to Poiseuille's equation, with a constant vessel length, if viscosity is increased by 20%, the decrease in blood flow rate will be 16.67% (100/120 83.33%; 100 − 83.33 = 16.67%). For the physiologic compensation of 20% increased viscosity, blood pressure increase will be 20% or vasodilation will be 4.66% in radius.

Atherosclerotic and some healthy vessels with little vasodilatory capacities might benefit from treatment modalities to decrease the viscosity by hemodilution.

Source: Effect of hematocrit on blood pressure via hyperviscosity

 

[FR0Z3N_B0MB3RRR]

@malfeasance did you try to donate blood? It helped me...

running 1g of test is just asking for troubles...

Better running something 500mg of test and 450mg of Primobolan weekly... and of course aromatase inhibitor based on your estro levels blood checked

 

[malfeasance]

Wow, good information above. Yes, I donate regularly. I have even engaged in self phlebotomy when HCT gets too high (the blood donation folks won't let you donate when HCT is over a certain level).

 

[malfeasance]

My bp has increased once I hit 50 and I’m eating clean, good cardio, otc supplements( magnesium, Hawthorne berry, fish oils, etc...) , little sodium, good potassium intake

I was able to control it with one bp medication but when my weight gets over 230 I need to add another bp med and sometimes a 3rd when I get near 230

not sure if you want to add another prescription med. people who struggle with bp sometimes need a ,cocktail, of meds to keep it in control as they get older. Granted AAS exasperates the problem for most

Can you provide us more information about your three blood pressure meds, in what order you added them, and whether a doctor ordered them or you are self prescribing? And also the effect of each on your blood pressure and any undesirable side effects?

 

[malfeasance]

Have you noticed a correlation between elevated BP and high HCT? I have. I think that’s my problem now. Haven’t dumped since October and my HCT was 53 a month ago, and my BP seems to be sitting above where it would be, despite being 12% bf. Typically when I’m this lean, my BP would run low. I haven’t dumped because I can’t drive yet. Perhaps that’s your issue.

I absolutely have noticed a correlation, but I keep HCT in the normal range now.

 

[malfeasance]

Hematocrit isn't a bad thing. Higher hematocrit percentages are associated with increased endurance and enhanced recovery. I am not sure what the optimal percentage should be for performance enhancement. Something around 50% - near the top or slightly above 'normal' range should be good

So while bloodletting can lower blood pressure, I'd seek the advice of a medical professional to manage hypertension.

Steroid users understandably have a distrust of doctors since the medical community has historically been behind the curve when it comes to PED use and side effect management and/or have allowed moral judgments to interfere with appropriate treatment.

But most medical professionals are competent when it comes to management of hypertension.

Having said that, donating a pint of blood usually results in a decrease of 2-3 percentage points for hematocrit. The reduced hematocrit decreases viscosity and lowers blood pressure.

Does anyone have any references for papers documenting the relationship between blood donation, hematocrit and blood pressure?

I cam across this one that gives clues to relationship:

Effect of hematocrit on blood pressure via hyperviscosity​

Yıldırım Çınar, Gamze Demir, Mustafa Paç, Ayşe Başak Çınar
American Journal of Hypertension, Volume 12, Issue 7, July 1999, Pages 739–743, Effect of hematocrit on blood pressure via hyperviscosity
Published:

01 July 1999

Abstract​

Increase in blood viscosity, defined as resistance to flow, is one factor in hypertension and atherosclerosis that contributes to the morbidity and mortality associated with tissue ischemia. In this research we evaluated the effect of hematocrit on increasing viscosity, and possible related changes in blood pressure, flow rate, and the equivalent physiologic compensation ratios. Blood samples were taken from 32 healthy individuals and centrifuged for 5 min at 3000 rpm to obtain 2.5 mL of erythrocyte mass from each. Then, at each step 0.5 mL of plasma was consecutively added in a total of 17 steps. The resultant hematocrit and viscosity changes were measured. Viscosity measurement was performed by capillary viscometer. The results were evaluated by the Student t test. It was observed that in the range of 60.16% and 25.32%, a 10.99% increase of hematocrit produced an increase of 1 unit relative viscosity, which means approximately a 20% increase in blood viscosity for a healthy individual. According to Poiseuille's equation, with a constant vessel length, if viscosity is increased by 20%, the decrease in blood flow rate will be 16.67% (100/120 83.33%; 100 − 83.33 = 16.67%). For the physiologic compensation of 20% increased viscosity, blood pressure increase will be 20% or vasodilation will be 4.66% in radius.

Atherosclerotic and some healthy vessels with little vasodilatory capacities might benefit from treatment modalities to decrease the viscosity by hemodilution.

Source: Effect of hematocrit on blood pressure via hyperviscosity

Excellent find. Thanks

 

[Bumpygooch]

Wow, good information above. Yes, I donate regularly. I have even engaged in self phlebotomy when HCT gets too high (the blood donation folks won't let you donate when HCT is over a certain level).

Where are you donating? How are they measuring HCT? Where I dump they only look at HGB, and the limit is 19, I’ve not been close to that even when HCT was almost 57.

 

[malfeasance]

Sorry - they measure hemoglobin. But the two are VERY correlated in my experience. They are so correlated in my mind that I was not even thinking about the difference when I posted.

And, yeah, I have been over 19 . . . head felt like it was going to explode when doing squats.

 

[Bumpygooch]

Sorry - they measure hemoglobin. But the two are VERY correlated in my experience. They are so correlated in my mind that I was not even thinking about the difference when I posted.

And, yeah, I have been over 19 . . . head felt like it was going to explode when doing squats.

Yes, definitely correlated

 

[FR0Z3N_B0MB3RRR]

Sorry - they measure hemoglobin. But the two are VERY correlated in my experience. They are so correlated in my mind that I was not even thinking about the difference when I posted.

And, yeah, I have been over 19 . . . head felt like it was going to explode when doing squats.

my fuckin nightmare... I couldn’t even do a fuckin leg press...

now I can finally train legs...

 

[Bumpygooch]

I was low today in the morning, like 115/65. Still questioning this machine. Did my workout, started my refeed. Got up off the couch and had a bout of orthostatic hypotension. Went and got a reading right away, 100/55. Took several more reading subsequently, all really low. This is BP I get when my weight is really low and I’m super lean. 225 at 12% doesn’t usually qualify. Is this machine that far off? If not, what the hell is causing this plummet? 40mg telmisartan last night, 7.5iu GH preworkout and 1000mg metformin is all I’ve taken today.

 

[Cmillis]

I’m taking exforge 10/320 which is combination so 2 meds in one.

I started an alpha blocker which is not first line defense but it also helps with prostate. Works great in reducing nighttime trips to bathroom and added benefit of reducing bp. Name is cardura 8 mg

labetalol I take twice a day 200 mg per dose. If I feel blood pressure is high I take a 3rd. A cardiologist put me on it. It lowers pulse rate too but does not impact my cardio. Only thing is it’s harder to get heart rate into upper end of heart rate zone but cardiologist said that’s fine. Work on endurance when doing cardio. Has good cardio protective properties with no negative cardio capacity

I was on all kinds over the years( hated diuretics depleted potassium no matter how much I consumed and ACE inhibitors worked but as dose was increased got persistent dry hacking cough so I stopped, I was on nifedipine but made my gums bleed)the above combo is working wIth minimum sides. I add extra labetalol on my own and it reduces bp relatively quick but is not long acting thus multiple doses per day

I need to limit my caffeine and Motrin/Advil/nsaid’s as they raise bp. I have sleep apnea so I use bipap. This greatly helped with bp after I started bipap. If I need energy I use provigil which for me has less of a negative impact on bp than caffeine does. Bottom line stimulants as many decongestants are not good for bp

if interested I can go on as I’ve tried many combinations over years. When I was younger norvasc worked wonders put as I get older and when weight goes up one medication doesn’t cut it

don’t get frustrated and if you need meds it’s not one size fits all. Sort of like antidepressants. Some work for some people and some people need a cocktail

when younger and invincible lol I resisted prescription meds but as you get older and realize you are mortal my mentality changed