Bruce Kneller arrested - could Anthony Roberts be next?

[SWALE]

I sure hope so.

I'll make the point one more time: I am TRYING to get you guys to communicate with your physicians in a more effective manner.

And, yes, the "biting sarcasm" did go right over my head. I say, I say, I say, I'm built too low.

 

[Millard]

I'll make the point one more time: I am TRYING to get you guys to communicate with your physicians in a more effective manner.

Ok. I'll second that.

But I think that the point all us non-medical professionals are trying to make is that physicians should try to listen more effectively to their patients concerns.

Now in no way is this a personal attack. Read my comments in your TRT forum about my total astonishment at the time that you spend "communicating" with your patients. (For those that don't know, SWALE's average initial consultation is approximately 90-120 minutes.)

This experience is just not share by most patients who try to effectively "communicate" with their doctors for various reasons.

 

[SWALE]

To relieve your concerns, I have not taken your comments as insulting to me personally. That's not the point of this exercise. But thank you just the same.

The best first step would be for the guys is to understand what the doc who is in front of them is up against; so trying to "drag them down" is counterproductive.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: the managed care/insurance company demands he/she spend no more than 7 minutes with you--including all the paperwork.

But my practice is an anomaly. I had a national level athlete in just this afternoon, and it took over 2.5 hours to get everything done. And for a measly $200. Then I had to do the paperwork.

 

[greyowl]

To relieve your concerns, I have not taken your comments as insulting to me personally. That's not the point of this exercise. But thank you just the same.

The best first step would be for the guys is to understand what the doc who is in front of them is up against; so trying to "drag them down" is counterproductive.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: the managed care/insurance company demands he/she spend no more than 7 minutes with you--including all the paperwork.

But my practice is an anomaly. I had a national level athlete in just this afternoon, and it took over 2.5 hours to get everything done. And for a measly $200. Then I had to do the paperwork.

You're not thinking right Swale. You should have hit him up for a few free tickets to his next game, then scalped them on the internet and pocketed the cash as a tax-free bonus!

 

[SWALE]

Dang! Why didn't I think of that???!!

 

[The Dark]

Bro, I honestly need you to help me with my reasoning skills too.

I can't understand how this would be insulting to any professional. This is what "The Dark" said that you find so insulting:



It seems perfectly reasonable to me that we should not deify physicians. They are not gods. They are not omniscient.

You don't really believe physicians have homes in the heavens, know everything, and should not ever be questioned. Do you?

And my point was not only that they, like all of us, are fallible, but that we should not blame them for not knowing everything in every area of medicine...it is, after all, a vast field of knowledge. Expecting your GP/PCP to know all about AAS is absurd and adopting a more accepting point of view about that will allow people to better communciate with their physician and work with him.

 

[The Dark]

Dark--You do not write like anyone with any kind of education. And your childish insults do not make your arguments for you either.

It's not my fault you cannot comprehend how your "dragging down" language would be offensive to someone who has sacrificed as much as physicians have--and do. So "dragging down a physician" is somehow supposed to insult AAS users? Is that your logic? And you claim you have a PhD?

Mentioning Roberts says much about your knowledge base, and your reasoning skills. You lowered yourself by posting such an inane comment. If you want that nitwit purposefully damaging the health and well-being of the Bro's, then just say so. If you are such an expert, please tell us where you find fault in his writing. If not, then perhaps you might consider not trying to insult someone who is here to try to minimize the fodder the press has to work with in their "roid rage" campaign.

Do you also wish to make the point that physiciqans are not belittled on these Boards frequently? Can you understand how this easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy? Maybe you should give this a little more thought before writing about it again. Especially in such a derogatory manner.

So you specifically object to the phrase "steroid abuse". Well, now, that is certainly a slippery slope.

Well then, exactly what is it you do which requires 80 hour work weeks every week, being on call every other night and working two straight days--on a regular basis--without a break, being constantly pinched between patient care and insurance companies and lawyers? Add in how insurance companies love to withold payments for 6 or 9 months (while staff still needs to be paid). And 12 years and a million dollars expenses and lost wages along the way to get the job. If your job is lke that, I would sincerely like to hear what it is.

I stand by my comments--each and every one.

Admin--So you do not think AAS use is "rampant". Where on earth have you been? How many men do you think use steroids in America alone? How many teenagers do you think use them? No offense, but you do have kind of a strange view of reality sometimes.

And we all know you don't get busted for using steroids--you get busted for not masking them.

Well...I dropped by for a few minutes as a diversion after finishing a grant application, posted a few thoughts and apparently walked into a hornet's nest of something. Must have something to do with established communities and dominance hierarchies ;<).

My record of grant funding and peer-reviewed publications over 2 decades is a sufficient indicator of my writing ability for me, thank you.

I clarified my point - users should adopt more realistic expectations of those physicians (i.e., they have their limitations; GPs/PCPs) that most people encounter on a daily basis.

Neither you nor Roberts are anything to me - I saw your discussion of him when I dropped in. Your feud with him is meaningless to me.

Users frequently malign physicians – so do non-using weightlifters (e.g., see Pope, Kanayama et al., 2004 in Addiction - a journal where I am an Assistant Editor). I predict there will soon be more data on this ;<). Approached properly a physician could be a valuable resource - if both the physician and user recognize and respect the others' position. One is a patient in need of services, the other is a licensed professional with a patient who is engaging in an “illegal” activity about which he may know little – except the generic BS (as in below) and that it is illegal.

I do not object to the phrase "abuse". Substance use and abuse, their antecedents, concomitants and outcomes are the research I do. I object to anyone, MD or not, citing, in a medical journal as "evidence" of "rampant" AAS abuse, a president’s mention of AAS in the SOTU and a small number of positive tests among a large number of competitive athletes. Abuse is certainly all too real, although I would argue AAS abuse is not "rampant" (rampant being imprecise and meaningless). The evidence cited in support of the assertion was not “evidence” at all, it was absurd.

I will not review my CV here, so please feel free to discount me at your whim. I know how many years of education, sacrifice, debt, and hard work it took me to get my Ph.D., complete post-doctoral training, and obtain licensure. I know how many hours I spent getting here and how many I now spend doing research, publishing, consulting on other research projects and clinical cases, providing patient care, supervising others providing patient care, teaching, serving as a journal editor, peer-reviewer, and grant reviewer for NIH, and so on.

We both stand by our comments, but you really should reconsider your strategy of wagging your finger like a flustered authoritarian school teacher at people who drop in – it clouds the judgment (as in, read posts carefully before responding) and is such a waste of the chances this place could offer for intelligent conversation…and it simply is not pretty.

I suppose I transgressed - I did not realize that this was YOUR territory and wandered in – didn’t smell the scent-marks, didn’t know the dominance hierarchy. I thought it was MESO and, having known this place from the beginning, figured it would be a good place to stop for a brief discussion as a break from my usual. When the mob gathered round like some high school gang (or monkey troop) who do not think, but follow the leader (hence, not reading either), I realized I was wrong. My bad.

Carry on. Enjoy your feuds. I do not have the time for it (and am surprised that you do).

 

[Millard]

Carry on. Enjoy your feuds. I do not have the time for it (and am surprised that you do).

I am saddened by the departure of The Dark. It is a great loss to the MESO community.

And disappointed by the behavior on MESO that resulted in his departure.

This must be some sorta record - in less than, what, 48 hours we managed to lose an incredibly brilliant mind, an unparalleled researcher/academic, and, not least of all, a long-standing friend of MESO?

I could rant ad nauseum. But I think the last post (and this thread) speak for themself.

 

[Bob Smith]

I am saddened by the departure of The Dark. It is a great loss to the MESO community.

And disappointed by the behavior on MESO that resulted in his departure.

This must be some sorta record - in less than, what, 48 hours we managed to lose an incredibly brilliant mind, an unparalleled researcher/academic, and, not least of all, a long-standing friend of MESO?

I could rant ad nauseum. But I think the last post (and this thread) speak for themself.

Well that just sucks.

 

[SWALE]

If "The Dark" wants to post here, that is his choice. If he does not, it is the same. His is an opinion, as is yours, and yours, and yours as well. Mine, too. If he decides to get into it with someone, and cannot handle it, that was his choice as well. But I don't the references to "territory", and all that, are warranted. And I do not think making an immature, unprofessional condescending statement, THEN trying to change the meaning of what he wrote (in direct opposition to common word usage), is honest. Nor are the irresponsible references to Anthony Roberts.

If he cannot stand the heat, he sure does need to stay out of the kitchen, as they say. And certainly making a bunch of childish remarks on the way out is not impressive. Or did "The Dark" expect he would be able to come here, make irresponsible, insulting and unhelpful statements, and that no one would be able to respond? Looks pretty childish to me. What it boils down to, therefore, it WAS about "The Dark's" ego--rather than serving the Bro's. He couldn't get his way, so he ran away. But not before making a bunch of snotty comments first. I guess I just expect professionals to act like men--including handling it when things get thick. Why would he be so completely intimidated by someone with expertise in this field? Cowardice is such a waste.

In all fairness, he does make several salient points here; ideas which I should think would be quite useful to all. Too bad he started out making a statement which clouded the value of his subsequent remarks to my mind--irrespective of his attempts to back peddle from his original comments. His original comment made me discount him as anyone of any substance. I honestly did not know he was anyone with any kind of history on the Boards, and will have to take all of your words for it, as I remain totally unimpressed.

For somoene who does not want to review his CV, he sure tries hard to impress. Yet he found nothing in my comments regarding the nonsense of Anthony Roberts of value? You've got to be kidding me. If he knows anything about the topics at hand, AND truly cared about the health and well-being of the Bro's, he would have jumped all over him--as I did, as William L. did, and others who are proficient in these topics.

As far as trying to get guys to communicate more effectively with physicians--which is the goal here, I should think--I'll have to claim superior experience in that arena. After all, I do it all day, every day.

 

[Millard]

I do not think making an immature, unprofessional condescending statement, THEN trying to change the meaning of what he wrote (in direct opposition to common word usage), is honest.

...making a bunch of childish remarks... is not impressive.

...expect he would be able to come here, make irresponsible, insulting and unhelpful statements, and that no one would be able to respond?

Looks pretty childish to me.

it WAS about... ego--rather than serving the Bro's.

..making a bunch of snotty comments...

I guess I just expect professionals to act like men...

he sure tries hard to impress.

Dude! Who are we talking about here?!

 

[Millard]

Nor are the irresponsible references to Anthony Roberts...

This is the "irresponsible" reference made to Anthony Roberts:

You're seemingly far too used to arguing to read objectively. Been on the defensive (or offensive) too much lately about this Roberts character?

Now back to SWALE:

Yet he found nothing in my comments regarding the nonsense of Anthony Roberts of value?

Not that I think the "nonsense of Anthony Roberts" has relevance to the feud in this thread, here are SWALE's comments re: Anthony Roberts:

I think you meant to ask if Anthony Roberts may be arrested AGAIN. From what I hear, he is already an ex-con.

So he gets out of prison and decides to take up a career promoting illegal activities, practices medicine wihtout a license, takes illegal drugs, etc. SMART!

Where on earth has Anthony Roberts' Parole Officer been?

Mentioning Roberts says much about your knowledge base, and your reasoning skills. You lowered yourself by posting such an inane comment.

I don't really have any comment on this other than to succinctly provide the valuable comments on Anthony Roberts made by SWALE in this thread.

 

[SWALE]

I'm not sure what your point is, Admin.

Are you trying to denegate me in open Forum? I ask because you have not been able to find a single comment from Dark which you have a problem with. Interesting.

I also note that someone makes an insulting comment directed toward me, and all you can do is print MY response. You post comments about how Mods act, then you attack a Mod in open Forum.

I took Dark's comment to include the other stuff that has gone on here as well. Perhaps that was a mistake. Still, what part of an ex-con deciding to make a career of using illegal drugs, and promoting illegal activities,and Practicing Medicine Without a License (a VERY serious felony-ten years worth, in fact) sounds like a wise career choice to you? Or does that thought strike you as "meaningless"? There is not a single coment I made whihc is not true, nor are there any of a negative flavor whic was not in response to some comment Dark made.

And I don't think anyone standing up for Anthony Roberts is going to impress anyone with their intellectual abilities anymore.

Look, if you don't want me speaking simple truth on this Board, just say so.

In fact, to hell with you. I am gone.

 

[Millard]

Are you trying to denegate me in open Forum? I ask because you have not been able to find a single comment from Dark which you have a problem with. Interesting.

No. Which is why I only need to repost your own statements to effectively accomplished the same.

I also note that someone makes an insulting comment directed toward me, and all you can do is print MY response. You post comments about how Mods act, then you attack a Mod in open Forum.

The Dark did not insult you. You even said as much:

Finally, it has nothing to do with me being insulted.

Uh, oh. I think another Anthony Roberts obsessive rant is approaching:

I took Dark's comment to include the other stuff that has gone on here as well. Perhaps that was a mistake.

Nice (but completely wrong and unwarranted) assumption.

Still, what part of an ex-con deciding to make a career of using illegal drugs, and promoting illegal activities,and Practicing Medicine Without a License (a VERY serious felony-ten years worth, in fact) sounds like a wise career choice to you? Or does that thought strike you as "meaningless"?

It's clearly irrelevant to the feud between you and The Dark. In spite of what you think, the world does not begin and end with Anthony Roberts. And using the "nonsense of Anthony Roberts" to justify and try to support any given argument is quite an unusual strategy. Everything does not involve Anthony Roberts. Please try to let go of him. He hasn't posted here over a week.

there any of a negative flavor whic was not in response to some comment Dark made.

Despite the fact that there was nothing in The Dark's comments to elicit the childish response, trying to blame someone else for your behavior is sad. Please accept responsibility for your own actions.

The "he started it first" approach to justifying your behavior hasn't worked since 2nd grade. (And come to think of it, it really didn't work then, did it!)

And I don't think anyone standing up for Anthony Roberts is going to impress anyone with their intellectual abilities anymore.

No one stood up for Anthony Roberts on this thread. Not me. Not The Dark.

Anthony Roberts supporters aren't lurking in the shadows. The defense of Anthony Roberts is not the impetus behind every discussion with you.

Please let go. Stop invoking Anthony Roberts all the time. Why? Why? It is totally irrelevant here. There is no need to be paranoid.

Look, if you don't want me speaking simple truth on this Board, just say so.

It is clearly you that does not want the truth. Several people have told you the truth about your behavior. But you choose to ignore them. This thread is the perfect display of your irrationality and refusal to "communicate" with any of the posters that disagree with you (or even those that do agree with you).

The irony is that this thread focused on the dicsussion of doctor/patient interaction and effective communication. You suggest AAS users experiences with GPs are simply self-fulfilling prophecies.

Well, Dr. Crisler you were complicit in fulfilling another prophecy we have about doctors:

That they do not listen.

Of course, from a recent post, you claim to be a superior communicator:

As far as trying to get guys to communicate more effectively with physicians--which is the goal here, I should think--I'll have to claim superior experience in that arena. After all, I do it all day, every day.

I think readers of this thread can make their own decisions regarding your communication skills of your online persona.

In fact, to hell with you. I am gone.

Ironic, huh? I could say something about this last comment. But you've already summed it up quite well in a post you just made recently:

If he cannot stand the heat, he sure does need to stay out of the kitchen, as they say. And certainly making a bunch of childish remarks on the way out is not impressive. Or did ... expect he would be able to come here, make irresponsible, insulting and unhelpful statements, and that no one would be able to respond? Looks pretty childish to me. What it boils down to, therefore, it WAS about ... ego--rather than serving the Bro's. He couldn't get his way, so he ran away. But not before making a bunch of snotty comments first. I guess I just expect professionals to act like men--including handling it when things get thick. Why would he be so completely intimidated by someone with expertise in this field? Cowardice is such a waste.

This is the second time that you couldn't tolerate critical discussion with me, have "taken your toys", and run home.

 

[That's that!]

First of all, WOW! Admin, I had no idea you were such a barracuda when properly provoked. Kudos. Great thread. This Dark is a knowledgeable kat and a very well spoken individual. I'd sincerely hope he would consider sticking around. With that being said I'd like to direct a question to Swale, crow makes an awful meal to eat, does it not?

I guess I thought this would be pertinent. Our beloved Dr. here sent me a pm right before he banned me for disagreeing with and basically disliking him greatly:

You are banned, assshole. Get a life.

Now you tell me gentlemen is this the proper decorum for a physician? Not one that I would use personally, I digress...

Beyond the obvious misspelled word, does anyone else detect a smattering of hypocracy out of this guy? "Don't do as I do, do as I say?" As it's been said irony's not without a sense of humor.

What makes things even worse is that he won't accept pm's for whatever reason so I'm unable to speak freely in a derogatory manner and will save you all from the drama here.

BTW, what is with this intense fixation Swale has with Anthony Roberts? There's something there that is not being mentioned aloud I can assure you.--That's that!

 

[That's that!]

Noone from Swale's flock has anything to say about what happened here? Oh, come on now. You ask me he got what he had coming. Karma's a bitch. I suppose he'll catch on somewhere else and continue accusing everyone this side of Asia of being a "Charlatan". Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Just so we're all clear I do not like Anthony Roberts and I feel that he is in fact a hack and a danger to himself and others. He cuts and pastes others work and accepts praise for it. He's flat out ignorant and will undoubtedly end up behind bars. His days of freedom are numbered.

I just didn't want this thread getting lost in the back of the heap without it's proper attention--That's that!

 

[Bigkarch]

actually you ar right..re-read the post I made and apologize....had a bad day and a bit intoxicated...

Funny you would say that, bro, since, in another post where you listed the authors at MESO to make a point about who writes here, you proudly included my "real" name. I knew MESO way back when, have been a member for a long time, and have been reading the boards and writing here for years.

Damn funny that!

 

[hackskii]

I am a mod on another board.
This behavior would never happen in public but in the mod lounge.
With that said this takes some of the credibility to the board away.
This thread should have been locked pages ago.
Not only that but 2 people with some knowledge happened to leave.
Congratulations, less collective thought and less credibility all in just one thread.

Gotta hand it to your mod’s here, you really know how to do your jobs with great tenacity.

I have learned a great lesson on what not to do on my board

 

[Bigkarch]

how ironic....you flame this board and us mods here but did it in an open forum...with your said mentallity..dont you think you should have put this as a PM to admin or had it put in the mod forum through a PM....Hmmm....I guess you dont practice what you preach...hell I am even sober right now...

 

[Millard]

I am a mod on another board.
This behavior would never happen in public but in the mod lounge.
With that said this takes some of the credibility to the board away.
This thread should have been locked pages ago.
Not only that but 2 people with some knowledge happened to leave.
Congratulations, less collective thought and less credibility all in just one thread.

Gotta hand it to your mod’s here, you really know how to do your jobs with great tenacity.

I have learned a great lesson on what not to do on my board

Just to share some info that was not yet privy to you:

First, the Admin had extensive private email conversations with the mod in question regarding his behavior.

Then, the subject of the behavior of the mod in question was discussed in the private mod forum.

When the mod in question unrepentantly refused to change his often unwarranted derogatory and demeaning behavior towards member(s), the Admin wanted to send a loud and clear message to all members that such behavior by a mod was not sanctioned or supported by MESO-Rx, the MESO-Rx Moderators, the MESO-Rx Admin(s), or the MESO-Rx Owner(s).

The two people that you reference with "some knowledge" who "happened to leave" were:

(1) SWALE - the moderator in question and
(2) The Dark - a well-published university professor/researcher/science journal editor

The Dark left as a result of SWALE's unwarranted, irrational, and unprofessional attacks.

I, as Admin, had no choice but to (a) censure the moderator privately via email; (b) censure the moderator privately in the moderator forum; and regrettably but ultimately; (c) censure the moderator publicly in open forum.

This is no easy task for the Admin or Moderators.

Given your experience at doing the same, your suggestions on handling such a situation are welcome.