Cycling and PEDs

[bossetti]

Absolutely. Your point is completely valid and understood. Big respect Brother. 5 W/kg? DAMN.

And i hate It because i have great numbers but i dont win because i ride MTB and people with like 4.5 or sometimes 4 destroys me in race because i cant ride well in rocks ecc on strava i had the best time of that day on the climbing part by like 8 seconda but i arrived 9 out of 27 because i ride like shit
I am trained by a coach btw and he trains tri pros so the smartest thing if i want to juice Is asking him directly

 

[malfeasance]

You look sick.

RHR ~70 due to Reta + GH

Unsure where HGB and HCT are now that I’m back on gear for ~40 days. Was 39% off gear.

I got heavy into cycling in late July of this year.

No idea my body fat level there is a pic from yesterday vs my peak physique. I’m rebounding from being off AAS for 7 months. I’ve got an intro thread that details all of it.

I’m sure I didn’t leave anything out, lol. I was very thorough but I know that was a sarcastic funny comment and I appreciate it.

I appreciate your approach. Kind of a bad response on my part on mobile right now, sorry.

Damn, those delts are huge. Good job.

Not much fat to lose.

The site's owner is a competitive cyclist. @Millard

 

[egruberman]

Obviously, I didn't say peds don't work.

At this guy's level, an elevated HCT isn't going to help. Some test and some GH to aid in recovery might. There's a thing called "muscular metabolic efficiency" that drives the muscle's ability to produce energy using oxidative phosphorylation that needs to be trained for quite some time before it comes anywhere close to being constrained by the central respiratory system.

 

[malfeasance]

Unsure where HGB and HCT are now that I’m back on gear for ~40 days. Was 39% off gear.

39? Are you sure?

Are you anemic or something?

 

[Trenbolonetax]

I’m 100% sure. I have no fucking clue what was going on. I also thought it was very low. Normally I’m not at all.

39? Are you sure?

Are you anemic or something?

 

[Trenbolonetax]

THANK YOU!

If you're serious about cycling, save the money you would spend on PEDs and get yourself a power meter. My favorite is the Favero Assioma Duo if you have road shoes or the Pro MX-1 if you have SPD.

For as long as you've been at it, I guarantee your FTP is shit. Probably you could do focused work to improve it, but until you lose weight your W/kg is going to be shit. If you were to do an FTP training block, you would become catabolic and it would interfere with your bodybuilding goals.

For general health and well-being you could do 6 or so hours of Z2 a week. Aim for the top of your Z2 power range and use a trainer or pick a route that's relatively flat in which you spend very little time coasting. You want to pedal as continuously as possible. This won't cause any catabolism and won't affect your gains if you space your cycling more than 8 hours or so after leg day. It may drive some conversion of type II muscle fibers which could impact strength, but I've not personally seen that happen.

After a couple months of that with a good base established, if you really want to get after it add one or two VO2Max sessions per week. The protocol is 4x4. That is to say, you want to pick a power that you can maximally sustain for 4 minutes, rest for about 5 minutes and repeat for a total of four times.

Coupled together and done consistently, these should drive massive improvements in fitness without compromising your resistance training overmuch. You'll reach 80-90% of your genetic potential within about a year or so. Beyond that, you'd want to add in dedicated FTP training blocks, but that is absolutely going to wreck you. You would probably have to stop resistance training entirely to make any real progress.

In the world of cycling training at that level, everyone uses the "performance management chart" as defined by Coggan in "Training and Racing with a Power Meter". I could write a couple thousand words on the topic from memory, but in essence there is a formula based on your FTP that tracks power output for a given period of time and assigns a training load metric to that. Athletes will then ramp their chronic training load, which is a 42 day rolling average while managing their acute training load which is a 14 day rolling average. The higher the former, the better the fitness, the higher the latter, the greater the training stress. The whole thing is then tuned to the limits of your body's potential following which you push your CTL as hard as you can stand it for as long as you can stand it, deload a bit, and then feel like a fucking rocket ship on a bike or if you fuck it up, you hit a wall, throw your bike in the ditch and vow never to get on one ever again.

Ask me how I know.

Anyway, if you do manage to get a power meter and want some specific guidance on how to proceed on some of the stuff I mentioned send me a DM.

Amazing reply!

 

[iris]

At this guy's level, an elevated HCT isn't going to help. Some test and some GH to aid in recovery might. There's a thing called "muscular metabolic efficiency" that drives the muscle's ability to produce energy using oxidative phosphorylation that needs to be trained for quite some time before it comes anywhere close to being constrained by the central respiratory system.

I said my bit, for this.
But did you have a look at his drug taking, before telling me about a bit of test and gh.
Maybe you missed the shopping list, at the top.

 

[bossetti]

I said my bit, for this.
But did you have a look at his drug taking, before telling me about a bit of test and gh.
Maybe you missed the shopping list, at the top.

I think when someone starts should Just ride for fun and do some random Attack ,climb and sprints
Then when you have a decent training i think its smart to start structured training maybe with a coach (i improved a lot with him) and find someone that you can meet irl sometimes because there Is a Better connection and comunication
Then when you feel tired and sick when you are training a lot and your improvement start to get slimmer you can think about juicing but sometimes your limit Is higher than you think


Btw if someone Is curious about my username Is about an italian dude that Is in prison but everyone Say It should be out of jail lol

 

[egruberman]

I said my bit, for this.
But did you have a look at his drug taking, before telling me about a bit of test and gh.
Maybe you missed the shopping list, at the top.

Seems you misunderstood me. My point was that none of that is really going to help.

I think when someone starts should Just ride for fun and do some random Attack ,climb and sprints

Why?

 

[bossetti]

Seems you misunderstood me. My point was that none of that is really going to help.



Why?

To build an aerobic base, structured training its hard af when you start and u should learn a bit to listen to your body before Just listening to Power meters and bpm but that Is Just my opinion
And its base on experience more than science
But to be honest if i didnt raced and Just ride for fun i wouldnt do intervals and i would Just enjoy group rides and going hard on climbs ecc
But if you aim to win and going fast structured training Is real
Someone Is fast without It but its pretty rare

 

[egruberman]

To build an aerobic base

Are you familiar with the work of Inigo San Millan?

Steady Z2 is all anyone needs to build an aerobic base. Some VO2 intervals will help, but are not necessary. "random attacks", "climb" and "sprint" are going to be hitting power duration intervals that are maybe not fruitful and would cause unnecessary fatigue.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Are you familiar with the work of Inigo San Millan?

Steady Z2 is all anyone needs to build an aerobic base. Some VO2 intervals will help, but are not necessary. "random attacks", "climb" and "sprint" are going to be hitting power duration intervals that are maybe not fruitful and would cause unnecessary fatigue.

Have listened to each of his podcasts with Peter Attia. Amazing work.

 

[bossetti]

Read everything i said AN amateur isnt near a pro or also u23 Ido interval trainings and steady Z2 for hours i train 18 hours a week and 90% Is z2

 

[bossetti]

Are you familiar with the work of Inigo San Millan?

Steady Z2 is all anyone needs to build an aerobic base. Some VO2 intervals will help, but are not necessary. "random attacks", "climb" and "sprint" are going to be hitting power duration intervals that are maybe not fruitful and would cause unnecessary fatigue.

But he pogi still do a lot of intervals.... Is Just that 10 percent of 30 hours Is 3 hours out of z2 that Is really a lot of you think about it
And with his new coach Z2 percentual decreased andwhe actually seen the results
He still do a Ton of z2

 

[iris]

Read everything i said AN amateur isnt near a pro or also u23 Ido interval trainings and steady Z2 for hours i train 18 hours a week and 90% Is z2

Tu es de France?

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Okay, I'm back to a computer. This turned into something I wasn't expecting. There are a few members who I'd like to thank for their productive contributions, or productive opining:

@readalot
@malfeasance
@egruberman
@iris
@bossetti

I feel the need to clarify a few things now. I am not looking to maximize cycle times / speed / performance to the point I'm running an optimal stack of PEDs for that + doing optimal training for that.

I am not looking to maximize muscle gains / physique goals at the complete expense of my potential cycling performance.

This leaves me in no mans land; I understand that. First and foremost I want to have fun with whatever I'm doing, secondly, I'd like to be decent enough at it.

I never expect to be as good as someone 50 pounds lighter than me at cycling who looks like a beanpole; because I don't want to look like a beanpole just yet in my life.

Now, onto the PED stack and the why behind each drug since there seems to be a lot of emphasis on "you shouldn't take drugs to be better at cycling until you're elite." But before that, refer back to: I am not looking to maximize cycle times / speed / performance to the point I'm running an optimal stack of PEDs for that + doing optimal training for that at the total expense of my physique.

PED STACK RATIONALE:
30mg test p; need a test base. I feel good here.
50mg mast p; wanted a lil extra something on top to rebound from my shit tier physique after being off AAS for 7 months in order to get wife pregnant. Thought it would be a decent choice so not to impact cycling performance due to minimal water retention.
50mg EQ; have not used much in my career, wanted to try it and drive RBC up given my 39% HCT blood test while off everything
20mg anavar; minimal water retention, rebound quicker, affinity for abdominal fat burning IN MY EXPERIENCE
25mg proviron; just cuz i felt like it. doesn't do much given the stack i'm on.
80mg telmisartan; have taken this for over 10 years since college football to control BP + PPAR agonist + insulin sensitivity + telomere lengthening possibly. most advantageous BP i can think of for performance
5mg cialis; pumps, BP, hard dick.
200mcg t4; on high GH, so upregulated conversion of t4 to t3, and wanted to put myself slightly hyperthyroid for fatloss.
10mg salbutamol; bronchodilator + fat oxidation. taken fasted before cycling workouts.
16iu GH; was at 8iu, hurt my groin, bumped it up to try and help with healing so I can get back to cycling at full strength quicker
20mg cardarine; PPAR delta agonist, fat oxidation, fat loss, endurance, and cancer.
600mg inj l carnitine; fat loss and whatever other benefits
500iu HCG or 75iu HMG (EOD); maintain fertility so i can get wifey pregnant again hopefully without coming off
150mg armodafinil; prefer this to a shit ton of caffeine across the day. satisfies my desire for stimulant. more focus drive etc, without the negative health ramifications / addiction potential of amphetamines. doesnt raise HR, BP, etc.
12mg retatrutide weekly; fat loss (via mechanisms other than caloric deficit), BG control, reduce food noise in order to keep on diet easily.
15mg mots-c; mitochondria health, gives boost to endurance and energy
2mg TB500 and BPC; groin issue.

Oh, and based on readalots comment regarding winstrol, I added in 25mg this afternoon. Hope that triggers some of you

And guess what? I'm going to add SLU-PP-332 and 5amino 1MQ when they arrive. Why? Cuz I want to experiment and I think readalot put it best....something about not blowing my brains out during my time in this simulation.

Training:
Currently gym 4x per week, 40 mins per session. 1 all out set per compound exercise + 1 back off set. Move on. Last 10 minutes straight pump work no breaks alternating between muscle groups. Not optimal, don't care.

Cycling: Ride every morning. If I feel good, I try and hit PRs. If I know it's not one of those days, upper Z2 ride.

I'm very familiar with Z2, and this isn't my first time on a bicycle. During COVID I rode quite a bit but put it down. I understand the idea of building an aerobic base; I'm not just your typical meathead body builder who pushes drugs and eats iron plates. I push drugs, but I'm not as retarded as some think I am.

Diet:
Very low carb most of the time to force mitochondrial adaptation to using fat as primary fuel source. I ride fasted on Z2 rides. On "hard" rides, I fuel with some quick carbs.

I do not have a power meter, I do not have cleats, I don't have a pure road bike. I have a base model canyon gravel bike. I use strava and apple watch. My FTP is shit, I am shit at cycling compared to most who cycle, however, for my weight and the amount of time I've spent recently cycling, I think I'm pretty good. Doesn't really matter though, objectively I'm shit.

I don't need to make a resource constraint trade off between PEDs and power meter / cleats, so I'll grab a power meter before cleats because I'm more interested in those metrics. I understand the benefits of being clipped in; that day will come.

@egruberman I really appreciate the time you spent to type that out and provided some details that I can reference to learn on my own; I'm big on that, so invaluable to have those references to google and learn about. Thanks for the offer to DM when I get to a place where it even makes sense to get deeper into conversation about that.

Finally, I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought there was a PED to make me an elite cyclist. The question was mostly about "what PEDs won't fuck up my cycling as much as others."

My cycling times were better when I was off all AAS and only on GH. I'm aware of the negative impact higher PEDs can have through that experience.

Anyhow, I appreciate all of the contributions to the thread.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

My labs demonstrating the 39% HCT and for anyone else who cares. These are while I was off AAS.

 

[egruberman]

Read everything i said AN amateur isnt near a pro or also u23 Ido interval trainings and steady Z2 for hours i train 18 hours a week and 90% Is z2

Yes, and?

But he pogi still do a lot of intervals.... Is Just that 10 percent of 30 hours Is 3 hours out of z2 that Is really a lot of you think about it
And with his new coach Z2 percentual decreased andwhe actually seen the results
He still do a Ton of z2

How Tadej trains and how a rank amateur trains is vastly different. Hell, even a rank amateur vs. how you train at 4-5W/kg is vastly different.

My advice to OP is based on his specific circumstances. I'm not suggesting intervals are necessary. I'm suggesting 4x4 as an option in addition to Z2 because every single athlete I've ever coached has started with "what intervals should I do". If you were to ask me what intervals *you* should do given that you're relatively close to your genetic potential for FTP, I would have to ask to see your power duration chart and power files from races in which you lost for some reason or other, the resulting intervals would be either to correct a weakness that caused you to lose or to enhance a strength that might cause you to win.

For the general population however, VO2 work is never wasted and is good for most people at any age. Your "random attack", "climb", or "sprint" might actually qualify for that depending on the duration, or it might cause unnecessary fatigue for OP.

Regardless, OP should stick with Z2 and build volume. I think you're suggesting that intervals are a bad idea, and I mostly agree, especially because his FTP is going to increase so rapidly in the coming year that the power targets might not generate any training stimulus at all.

 

[egruberman]

My labs demonstrating the 39% HCT and for anyone else who cares. These are while I was off AAS.

Hydration might've been a factor. Manipulating hydration is how many pros beat doping tests.

Lipids are looking pretty good, btw.

Cycling: Ride every morning. If I feel good, I try and hit PRs. If I know it's not one of those days, upper Z2 ride.

Probably one of the best PRs you can hit for now is hours per week in Z2, which you want to consistently increase.

base model canyon gravel bike

I run the Assioma MX-1 on my gravel bike with 35mm Conti GP5k tubeless and it's fast AF and will handle any terrain that isn't rocks and roots. My road bike misses me. The dual-sided power meter is kinda spendy. Single sided will work for what you need. It is precise in terms of relative measurements. If you need absolute precision, then get the duo.

Once you have a power meter, get a computer. I like the Wahoo Bolt v2. It'll auto-upload to strava. You can wire that into intervals.icu for free, which will do your power analysis for you. All you need is a short, medium and long duration max effort somewhere in a power file on a day when you're well recovered and it'll give you a reasonably accurate estimated FTP.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Hydration might've been a factor. Manipulating hydration is how many pros beat doping tests.

Lipids are looking pretty good, btw.



Probably one of the best PRs you can hit for now is hours per week in Z2, which you want to consistently increase.



I run the Assioma MX-1 on my gravel bike with 35mm Conti GP5k tubeless and it's fast AF and will handle any terrain that isn't rocks and roots. My road bike misses me. The dual-sided power meter is kinda spendy. Single sided will work for what you need. It is precise in terms of relative measurements. If you need absolute precision, then get the duo.

Once you have a power meter, get a computer. I like the Wahoo Bolt v2. It'll auto-upload to strava. You can wire that into intervals.icu for free, which will do your power analysis for you. All you need is a short, medium and long duration max effort somewhere in a power file on a day when you're well recovered and it'll give you a reasonably accurate estimated FTP.

Very much appreciate the insights! I’m going to go with single sided for now. I generally describe my bodybuilding as “serious hobbyist”, which is the point I would like to get to with cycling. I think that’s all I will need for that level at least in the near term.

I hear you about the hours in Z2…is there an upper limit? Or just something that more is better until I hit a certain threshold?

I’m generally clocking like 10 hours Z2 per week right now, but can definitely do more as I know I’m definitely not even close to maxing out aerobic base nor even hitting upper limit of Z2 in terms of benefit.

If anything… i think I was dehydrated. I usually am. Don’t drink enough water and hard to hold onto water very low carb.