Darius Pharmacom Test-E Bloodwork (underdosed a bit)

[Dr JIM]

How's that? In the past I've always got 7.5-8.5 on the total weekly dosage. It's definitely over 10 on the half dosage pin.

It's NOT based on the "weekly average" but the LAST DOSE, PINNED

 

[emcomfu]

So you're telling me I'm usually around 15-16x?

 

[roastdawg]

The following is based on TRT data.

TO BEST COMPLY WITH THE TEN X RULE THE FOLLOWING ARE ADVISED, and as SUCH DEVIATIONS WILL DIMINISH THE ACCURACY OF THE TEST RESULTS!

1) Running either T-e or T-c
2) Bloods drawn 24 hrs (+ or - 12) AFTER the last injection
3) Level drawn AFTER at least 4 half lives have passed ~ one month
4) An optimal injection interval is 5-7 days
*5) Shorter pinning intervals are more likely to RAISE rather than suppress the level obtained
6) The AAS being cycled is TT exclusively
7) The use of an AI or HCG will result in less accurate info

JIM

Awesome, and just to be clear when I'm taking about shorter pinning intervals I'm still talking about a combined weekly dose. I.e. 500mg injected once a week should yield a blood result of about ten times that if tested 48hrs after injection. But if you break that 500mg up into 5 100mg shots you're not going to expect to see peak levels of total test at around 5000 48 hours after a 100mg injection correct?

 

[Dr JIM]

Awesome, and just to be clear when I'm taking about shorter pinning intervals I'm still talking about a combined weekly dose. I.e.

1) 500mg injected once a week should yield a blood result of about ten times that if tested 48hrs after injection.

2) But if you break that 500mg up into 5 100mg shots you're not going to expect to see peak levels of total test at around 5000 48 hours after a 100mg injection correct?

1) CORRECT but at 48 hours your beginning to reach less than PEAK VALUES (which is why 24-36 hrs is optimal)

2) ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, bc you will actually have one peak "stacked" onto another peak, which will GROSSLY effect your results, and the values obtained from such intervals have NOT been studied!

So it's a kind of no man's land ....... who knows what the end result, level, should/would be.

 

[strongsafety41]

Actually, the 10X guesstimate still holds. [Also, take note that the 10X is typically a bit on the high side, but this is purposeful since this is most useful for PCT.]

@Dr JIM unless I'm reading this wrong the 10X rule does apply to the weekly dose and not the split dose.

My quote was cut off ... It's from the "bloodwork" thread started by inkandmuscle.

 

[strongsafety41]

A good estimate I have found to work very well clinically is to multiply the dose (TC/TE) by 10. Of course there will be some variation around the level, but this has worked out very well for PCT. For example, TC/TE 600 mg per week provides a serum testosterone of ~6,000 ng/dL. In the real world, the levels might be a a high as 8,000 ng/dL!!!

Here is another quote for Doc Scally. I was searching for one that supports a split dose instead of a weekly dose. It's been my understanding of the 10X rule to apply to the weekly dosage. Let me know if I'm wrong.

 

[lightspan]

Here is another quote for Doc Scally. I was searching for one that supports a split dose instead of a weekly dose. It's been my understanding of the 10X rule to apply to the weekly dosage. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Single dose studies say 10x for a once weekly pin is a good estimate. Splitting the dose into 2 pins per week drops the total level. I have yet to find a study that looks at split pins and total test levels (that is probably from lack of research, someone's probably looked at those numbers). The upshot: total test level for split schedule is somewhere between 10x the split injection dose and 10x a single weekly injection dose. I have a couple papers on this that show the PK plot for single dose a week, I'll throw them up when I'm not on my phone.

 

[Dr JIM]

The problem with "split dosing", exclusive of the fact TRT studies are based upon 5-7 dat intervals, is PEAK STACKING! GOT IT.

So providing the PEAK has become a reasonable plateau, which occurs after TWO DAYS for T-e or T-c, values obtained at 3,4, and 5 days are quite accurate, providing the results are based on the LAST DOSE PINNED, rather than an "average"!

However the greater the variance from the OPTIMAL procedure I mentioned earlier the greater the likelihood of non-compliant 10 X rule results.

In fact for almost every case of AAS 10 X rule "NON-COMPLIANCE" that I have reviewed, the reason was relatively straightforward; either the AAS were underdosed or overdosed (lol) OR the TESTOR did NOT follow the DAMN RULES!

Yea it's annoying bc of the number of times Meso do drop in's (AKA SHILL, STOOLIE, PLANT ect) claim the 10 times rule is BUNK, rather than the AAS they often blindly defend.

The 10 times rule is a TOOL or TEST that can to be used as an estimate of an AAS (TT in particular) concentration, but like any assay there are rules that enhance it's reliability and those don't.

 

[Wunderpus]

The following is based on TRT data.

TO BEST COMPLY WITH THE TEN X RULE THE FOLLOWING ARE ADVISED, and as SUCH DEVIATIONS WILL DIMINISH THE ACCURACY OF THE TEST RESULTS!

1) Running either T-e or T-c
2) Bloods drawn 24 hrs (+ or - 12) AFTER the last injection
3) Level drawn AFTER at least 4 half lives have passed ~ one month
4) An optimal injection interval is 5-7 days
*5) Shorter pinning intervals are more likely to RAISE rather than suppress the level obtained
6) The AAS being cycled is TT exclusively
7) The use of an AI or HCG will result in less accurate info

JIM

Jim, you must be psychic, I was literally about to make a thread about HCG's effects on BW. I haven't even run a panel while running HCG (not sure why, probably just timing), but I plan to soon, and was curious if/how it would skew the results.

Can you elaborate a little more as to in what way it would/could?

Thanks!

 

[strongsafety41]

The problem with "split dosing", exclusive of the fact TRT studies are based upon 5-7 dat intervals, is PEAK STACKING! GOT IT.

So providing the PEAK has become a reasonable plateau, which occurs after TWO DAYS for T-e or T-c, values obtained at 3,4, and 5 days are quite accurate, providing the results are based on the LAST DOSE PINNED, rather than an "average"!

However the greater the variance from the OPTIMAL procedure I mentioned earlier the greater the likelihood of non-compliant 10 X rule results.

In fact for almost every case of AAS 10 X rule "NON-COMPLIANCE" that I have reviewed, the reason was relatively straightforward; either the AAS were underdosed or overdosed (lol) OR the TESTOR did NOT follow the DAMN RULES!

Yea it's annoying bc of the number of times Meso do drop in's (AKA SHILL, STOOLIE, PLANT ect) claim the 10 times rule is BUNK, rather than the AAS they often blindly defend.

The 10 times rule is a TOOL or TEST that can to be used as an estimate of an AAS (TT in particular) concentration, but like any assay there are rules that enhance it's reliability and those don't.

Ok Doc, I had a little time to sleep on it. Practically, dose stacking makes sense. However, where I'm struggling to gain an understanding is when someone has been on testosterone for 7+ weeks. Shouldnt their levels be stable at this point? Shouldn't we be able to use a weekly average? Maybe I just need to see it plotted/graph.

 

[emcomfu]

Can @Michael Scally MD chime in?

 

[rpbb]

Ok Doc, I had a little time to sleep on it. Practically, dose stacking makes sense. However, where I'm struggling to gain an understanding is when someone has been on testosterone for 7+ weeks. Shouldnt their levels be stable at this point? Shouldn't we be able to use a weekly average? Maybe I just need to see it plotted/graph.

Dr J has posted some really good threads and discussions about peak values and average values. splitting doses affects peak values

 

[Docd187123]

Ok Doc, I had a little time to sleep on it. Practically, dose stacking makes sense. However, where I'm struggling to gain an understanding is when someone has been on testosterone for 7+ weeks. Shouldnt their levels be stable at this point? Shouldn't we be able to use a weekly average? Maybe I just need to see it plotted/graph.

At 7wks in youd be Stable as in the amount of test you're injecting is about the same as the test you're metabolizing it doesn't mean there's no fluctuation in your serum levels.

Seeing as most ppl use twice a week injections for long esters you can't use the weekly average as Jim mentioned youll have peak stacking which isn't a true peak for each single injection.

 

[strongsafety41]

At 7wks in youd be Stable as in the amount of test you're injecting is about the same as the test you're metabolizing it doesn't mean there's no fluctuation in your serum levels.

Seeing as most ppl use twice a week injections for long esters you can't use the weekly average as Jim mentioned youll have peak stacking which isn't a true peak for each single injection.

Great explanation; Completely understood. Variation in blood serum based off bi-weekly injections and peak values, it makes sense. Just need a little time to digest it all. Thanks fellas.

 

[Bender83]

This is very interesting to me as I have tried my best to read and understand all the threads I can on the "10x" rule. I remember seeing it mentioned in at least one of the threads that splitting pins should/will effect the expected test results.

However, I have never actually seen the statement
"It's NOT based on the "weekly average" but the LAST DOSE, PINNED"

Wouldn't this mean that all the people who were pinning 250mg 2x per week and getting a blood test result in the mid to low 2000's, actually had good gear, and not underdosed as so many people said/thought?

This is just what I am taking away from this right now. Sometimes I have to read things a couple of times over to wrap my mind around it, so please be gentle if I'm wrong.

 

[Dr JIM]

1)
However, I have never actually seen the statement
"It's NOT based on the "weekly average" but the LAST DOSE, PINNED"

2)
Wouldn't this mean that all the people who were pinning 250mg 2x per week and getting a blood test result in the mid to low 2000's, actually had good gear, and not underdosed as so many people said/thought?

.

1) People have been WRONGLY averaging or ADDING SPLIT DOSAGES over a one week interval. . The TT level WILL BE LOWER than if a SINGLE WEEKLY DOSE was utilized!

2) ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! !

 

[double-leg]

1) People have been WRONGLY averaging or ADDING SPLIT DOSAGES over a one week interval. . The TT level WILL BE LOWER than if a SINGLE WEEKLY DOSE was utilized!

2) ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! !

Question? Just to clarify. So if i pinned 100 mg test p 150mg of test e eod. It would be lower than a single split dose of both? I was under the impression that a more often pinning schedule would give me more stable blood levels. This is actually how i like to pin. A fast and slow ester together. I see a big difference in my body when i run the two. Kinda like a kick start but carried all the way through the cycle.

 

[AlphaLife]

This is very interesting to me as I have tried my best to read and understand all the threads I can on the "10x" rule. I remember seeing it mentioned in at least one of the threads that splitting pins should/will effect the expected test results.

However, I have never actually seen the statement
"It's NOT based on the "weekly average" but the LAST DOSE, PINNED"

Wouldn't this mean that all the people who were pinning 250mg 2x per week and getting a blood test result in the mid to low 2000's, actually had good gear, and not underdosed as so many people said/thought?

This is just what I am taking away from this right now. Sometimes I have to read things a couple of times over to wrap my mind around it, so please be gentle if I'm wrong.

1) People have been WRONGLY averaging or ADDING SPLIT DOSAGES over a one week interval. . The TT level WILL BE LOWER than if a SINGLE WEEKLY DOSE was utilized!

2) ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! !

Very interesting info. I always assumed it compounded.

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

I have to say, aside from 1 post you made a month ago Dr. Jim this is the first I've heard of this.

I and many other members, usually come in around 8x the weekly dose on a split schedule. According to this I come in at 16x basing it off of my last shot.

So a member running 500mg/week on a split schedule would have acceptable TT of 1750 (7x the split shot of 250) ?? That's not too far out of most lab's reference ranges!!

In my 2+ years on Meso this is not how TT results have been analyzed and I think this is opening the door for subpar UGLs to now be looked at as "g2g". Essentially you're saying that 3.5-5x the weekly dose on a split schedule is what we're looking for? Am I missing something??

 

[inforthegains]

1) People have been WRONGLY averaging or ADDING SPLIT DOSAGES over a one week interval. . The TT level WILL BE LOWER than if a SINGLE WEEKLY DOSE was utilized!

2) ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! !

welp that clears shit up for me pretty easily lol

2562 ng/dL 36.5 hours after my 250mg pin of an AP test E split dose

apparently I'm gtg


and yet...

I have to say, aside from 1 post you made a month ago Dr. Jim this is the first I've heard of this.

I and many other members, usually come in around 8x the weekly dose on a split schedule. According to this I would be coming in at 16x basing it off of my last shot.

According to this, a member running 500mg/week on a split schedule would have acceptable TT of 1750 (7x the split shot of 250) ?? That's not too far out of most lab's reference ranges!!

In my 2+ years on Meso this is not how TT results have been analyzed and I think this is opening the door for subpar UGLs to now be looked at as "g2g". Essentially you're saying that 3.5-5x the weekly dose on a split schedule is what we're looking for? Am I missing something??

in the time I have been lurking I have never found a consensus one way or the other...

and I thought @Michael Scally MD said it was (7-)10x weekly dose...right? or is that just cyp pinned once a week..?