Every mid cycle blood I've ever done has come out in that range.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Darius Pharmacom Test-E Bloodwork (underdosed a bit)
- Thread starter emcomfu
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Every mid cycle blood I've ever done has come out in that range.
inforthegains
New Member
this has really clarified things immensely
so expect around 7x of weekly dose on average, more or less
I think that is exactly what people aren't getting.
I don't have access to Autocad at the moment so I quickly drew this graph up in MS Paint. The graph is just a rough drawing and is not to scale but should help convey the pharmacokinetics.
Red represents the peak and nadir TT levels for once a week dosing and black represents the peak and nadir for 1/2 dose twice a week. Total weekly dose is the same for both dosing regimens and user is at steady state.
As you can see, a full weekly dose results in a higher peak TT and lower nadir than divided doses. Half a dose given twice weekly results lower peaks than full doses given once weekly, but higher nadir levels. Obviously, the lower peak from twice weekly dosing will have a negative impact on the 10X rule. Again, graph is NOT to scale.
Divided doses also result in less fluctuation in serum TT.
I hope this graph makes sense.
Excellent post CBS !
This isn't too far off of the 10X rule. I think when Scally posted the rule it had a range of 8-10X weekly dose.
Who said ANYTHING about INDIVIDUAL variance?
The problem is relatively simple, people are constantly deviating from the control group by dosing twice weekly, adding an AI, HCG, any ANY other AAS that can result in the offloading of TT from Albumin or SHBG.
If you fellas want reproducible data follow the TRT studies inclusion/exclusion criteria.
Jim
Jim, I really am curious HOW much HCG can/will skew the results?
Have you seen the HCG data in studies where it was used for infertility?
Start there for now.
NO I'm not saying it's the same as those using AAS but it's worth a look see, IMO
Start there for now.
NO I'm not saying it's the same as those using AAS but it's worth a look see, IMO
inforthegains
New Member
I merely meant individual variance as in the variance in TT results between individuals who are cycling the same weekly dose...
But yes I absolutely see what you mean regarding the effect of AIs, HCG, multiple doses per week, etc. on the results.
I think the take home point is mates whom are not following the TRT study criteria, in which those patients who were taking an agent that could effect TT levels were omitted, should expect LESS reliable results.
HCG as used in infertility patients can increase TT levels to normal age matched ranges and a similar effect is seen with AI's.
Of course mates using AAS are NOT matched controls but nonetheless the potential impact of these agents on TT levels should simply not be ignored.
HCG as used in infertility patients can increase TT levels to normal age matched ranges and a similar effect is seen with AI's.
Of course mates using AAS are NOT matched controls but nonetheless the potential impact of these agents on TT levels should simply not be ignored.
inforthegains
New Member
Thanks @Dr JIM
My question then is, do we have any amount of (or can we begin to compile some) data on the dose- and protocol-dependent effects of ancillaries and pinning protocols in regards to cycling?
I see that you mentioned some HCG infertility studies.
But short of compiling cycle logs from everyone who honestly reports their cycle, protocol, and ancillary use, and comparing that to the TRT studies already published, is there a feasible way to get an idea of this?
inforthegains
New Member
Haha message received. But even an informal compilation of data might be of some use. Probably for nothing more than satisfying curiosity, though
Colt44
Well-known Member
Haha message received. But even an informal compilation of data might be of some use. Probably for nothing more than satisfying curiosity, though
Tried that. Too many deviate from protocol to collect any sort of consistent data.
^^^^^^^
My goodness is that ever true.
Indeed some Meso mates have modified guidelines to suit their OWN needs, apparently not expecting said changes to effect the data obtained, when in fact the latter will rarely be the case.
My goodness is that ever true.
Indeed some Meso mates have modified guidelines to suit their OWN needs, apparently not expecting said changes to effect the data obtained, when in fact the latter will rarely be the case.
Colt44
Well-known Member
Completely agree.
I'd just like to collect enough data on split dosing using the same protocol to at least get an average acceptable range of serum TT on a certain dose. With enough data it can be accomplished. But as I said too many deviations.
I'd just like to collect enough data on split dosing using the same protocol to at least get an average acceptable range of serum TT on a certain dose. With enough data it can be accomplished. But as I said too many deviations.
inforthegains
New Member
I getcha...and it'd have to all be data from pharm grade, as well...couldn't get any further useful data from bloods that are already being used to gauge the strength of UGL gear...
Colt44
Well-known Member
But homebrewed raws that were MS/HPLC tested would be sufficient. Pharmacy grade has nothing to do with it. Exact dosage is key.
inforthegains
New Member
Right, definitely. Any sample where the dosage is not a variable.
Certainly it could be done by a not overly large number of contributors in that manner, while also incorporating (or at least considering) data from PG cycles.
But that is quite an undertaking and I'm guessing just a pipe dream...at least I know that personally I will not be sourcing and testing raws or running PG anytime soon.
At this point we end up back at what @Dr JIM said about conducting a study, rather than just amassing an informal compilation of data.
jon johnson
New Member
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NO! I'd be pissed with bloods that low running test e 500mg/wk...even if running weak ass Dragon Pharma or UGF's Para Pharma (no label) you could prob do better than that! Lol!
Could also get those horrible lab numbers if running naps fake ass counterfeit HG amps which are prob. made by same guys who made "Our unknown secrets" (OUS) counterfeit hg gear for years until they got called out so many times that even Outlaw couldn't pretend it was legit anymore (and the feds busting them too, and confirming their amps were indeed counterfeit didn't help either)! And that's hard to do! !! I mean look at Uncle z he's been back on OM for a while now, even after being warned and banned numerous times...
People think that cause its AAS dealers, that they aren't shady (especially repackers in the US and eastern europe...like they don't cut the big ass litre bottles they get before transferring to 10ml vials...yea okkk
NO! I'd be pissed with bloods that low running test e 500mg/wk...even if running weak ass Dragon Pharma or UGF's Para Pharma (no label) you could prob do better than that! Lol!
Could also get those horrible lab numbers if running naps fake ass counterfeit HG amps which are prob. made by same guys who made "Our unknown secrets" (OUS) counterfeit hg gear for years until they got called out so many times that even Outlaw couldn't pretend it was legit anymore (and the feds busting them too, and confirming their amps were indeed counterfeit didn't help either)! And that's hard to do! !! I mean look at Uncle z he's been back on OM for a while now, even after being warned and banned numerous times...
People think that cause its AAS dealers, that they aren't shady (especially repackers in the US and eastern europe...like they don't cut the big ass litre bottles they get before transferring to 10ml vials...yea okkk
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jon johnson
New Member
Yea, I think it should be higher too (maybe retest week 10-12) and see what levels are when it fully has kicked it.
All bloodwork I've done on EQ raised my RBC, Hematocrit, hemoglobin, like crazy...to the point I was donating blood 1x/month.
I have the same Pharmacom EQ 300mg/ml and their EQ 500mg/ml...thinking now I might have to run it a little higher at 1200-1500mgs/wk...to shoot for the 1g/wk range I want it to be really at.
