Difference between 500mg and 750mg Test E

[NeedleCheeks]

What substantial proof is there that "1g didn't shut me down as bad as 500mg" - I've seen none. Shall we ask professionals? @Docd187123

I truly don't care to debate this topic honestly. Also who said 1g shut them down less than 500mg? My only point, (which is based on opinion and personal experience) was that once your body becomes tolerant to massive doses of hormones for extended periods of time, normal levels of testosterone don't provide the same effect. If your body adapts to having extremely high test levels for EXTENDED periods of time, going back to normal range test levels will seem like low T, because your body has adapted to that being the new normal. Of course this isn't the case for every little cycle, so don't misunderstand. But I do believe the higher the level of hormones your body adapts to, the more it needs to function normally. Nobody has to agree with me, it doesn't matter really. This is just my belief. Also, the term "Doc" being in his username doesn't make him a doctor nor an expert lol. However I'm sure he's knoweledgable, nobody has really done studies on the differences of effects on the body from high to moderate doses for extended periods of time. Not specifically for the concept I'm describing at least.

Just look at Jay cutler. The guy was probably running grams of every steroid in the book, year round, for years straight. Nowadays he's just on TRT and he always looks depressed, lethargic and unmotivated. I believe his body is so accustomed to such a variety of massive hormone levels, that he feels like shit on TRT alone.

 

[Sworder]

My only point, (which is based on opinion and personal experience) was that once your body becomes tolerant to massive doses of hormones for extended periods of time, normal levels of testosterone don't provide the same effect.

Your whole point is invalid. A person doesn't become tolerant to massive doses of hormones. Tolerance in the aspect you are speaking of doesn't exist. If you want to argue further, please provide some evidence of this.

What substantial proof is there that "1g didn't shut me down as bad as 500mg" - I've seen none. Shall we ask professionals? @Docd187123

There are not various degrees of getting shut down. When it comes to cycle doses of AAS; imagine the HPTA as an on or off switch.
You cannot get shut down to a negative value if that makes sense?
Atrophy of cells can occur but that is based on the duration of the shutdown. Also, different compound can have additional pathways of shut down and esters can have different half lives; so the compound is lingering in the body for a longer period of time.

 

[NeedleCheeks]

Your whole point is invalid. A person doesn't become tolerant to massive doses of hormones. Tolerance in the aspect you are speaking of doesn't exist. If you want to argue further, please provide some evidence of this.


There are not various degrees of getting shut down. When it comes to cycle doses of AAS; imagine the HPTA as an on or off switch.
You cannot get shut down to a negative value if that makes sense?
Atrophy of cells can occur but that is based on the duration of the shutdown. Also, different compound can have additional pathways of shut down and esters can have different half lives; so the compound is lingering in the body for a longer period of time.

Actually YOUR whole point is invalid. And you're gay. See how easy that is to say? But no I don't wish to argue this topic further, I believe I made that pretty clear when I said "I truly don't care to debate this topic" as the first sentence of my last post.

I will say this, just because you think your an expert, doesn't mean you are. None of this information is proven or disproven, and anyone with a truly intellectual mind would entertain this concept as possibility. When engaging in thorough debate, you and the opposition should emerge stronger, with new concepts and ideas. To completely discredit a theory without evidence disproving is arrogant and uninformed. Have a lovely day sword dude.

 

[Sworder]

I will say this, just because you think your an expert, doesn't mean you are. None of this information is proven or disproven, and anyone with a truly intellectual mind would entertain this concept as possibility. When engaging in thorough debate, you and the opposition should emerge stronger, with new concepts and ideas. To completely discredit a theory without evidence disproving is arrogant and uninformed. Have a lovely day sword dude.

You clearly lack a basic understanding of how the HPTA works. There are many studies that show a clear and direct correlation between AAS dose and LH/FSH production. It is truly known and has been proven.
The higher the dose, the more likely shutdown will be. And when you get to cycle doses, shutdown is guaranteed and will be completed in weeks. Sometimes faster.
There is nothing intellectual to be gained when you don't understand the basics.
What was the purpose of the personal attack? Oh nevermind I know that. Lack of subject matter. Seen that one before. If you have any questions that you want answered, ask away.

 

[NeedleCheeks]

You clearly lack a basic understanding of how the HPTA works. There are many studies that show a clear and direct correlation between AAS dose and LH/FSH production. It is truly known and has been proven.
The higher the dose, the more likely shutdown will be. And when you get to cycle doses, shutdown is guaranteed and will be completed in weeks. Sometimes faster.
There is nothing intellectual to be gained when you don't understand the basics.
What was the purpose of the personal attack? Oh nevermind I know that. Lack of subject matter. Seen that one before. If you have any questions that you want answered, ask away.

I didn't read a word you said

 

[Sworder]

I didn't read a word you said

Ok

 

[Eman]

I didn't read a word you said

Funny coming from the guy that just posted this:

When engaging in thorough debate, you and the opposition should emerge stronger, with new concepts and ideas.

Of all the evidence based information you provided, this was my favorite:

Just look at Jay cutler. The guy was probably running grams of every steroid in the book, year round, for years straight. Nowadays he's just on TRT and he always looks depressed, lethargic and unmotivated. I believe his body is so accustomed to such a variety of massive hormone levels, that he feels like shit on TRT alone

You didn't care to debate this topic because you don't know what you're talking about in regards to shutdown... None of your counter arguments even came close to addressing that question.

 

[NeedleCheeks]

Funny coming from the guy that just posted this:



Of all the evidence based information you provided, this was my favorite:



You didn't care to debate this topic because you don't know what you're talking about in regards to shutdown... None of your counter arguments even came close to addressing that question.

*sigh*

Guys I understand how how HPTA shutdown works. But if you pay attention to what I wrote, I wasn't talking about HPTA shutdown. When you inject exogenous hormones, GnRH secretion is suppressed at the hypothalamus, which causes the pituitary gland to have suppressed production of luteinizing hormone, anddd follicular stimulating hormone. Anddddd without the good ole LH and FSH flowin' the ole testiculars quit producing that precious endogenous testosterone. Once this process is suppressed and you're no long producing these hormones, you're shut down. That's that. I understand this.

The "not reading what he wrote" thing was just poking fun. Now about my theory, point out where I said it was evidence based? Because I recall saying that it was opinion based and some good ole personal experience. I don't believe you can be MORE shutdown after you're already shut down. You can't start negative hormone production.. I do however believe that we can become desensitized to high hormone levels, which is the only point I was trying to make. Do I have data proving what I believe to be fact? No I don't. That's why I stated it was opinion based from the beginning. But is it really that ridiculous to believe? Your body adapts to high levels of androgens after continuous/consistent usage. Like the first time you use trenbolone, going back to a test only cycle will never feel the same or be as effective. Theoretically if our bodies never became accustomed to higher levels of test, 500mg test cycles should be able to provide the same feeling and results as the first one. But we know that's not the case. I believe that if you run a couple grams of gear for a few years straight, then one day you decide to stop and go back to 100mg test Cyp a week.. You will experience low T side effects. Low libido, lethargy, depression, the works. When your body becomes "homeostatic" (for lack of a better term) with massively high hormone levels, going back to the levels of a mere mortal will never be the same.

No disrespect intended toward either of you gentlemen. I truly didn't want to debate this because I knew what would happen. If there is no medical evidence supporting a theory, then it's deemed broscience. Which it may be, but personally I believe it.

 

[Sworder]

The "not reading what he wrote" thing was just poking fun. Now about my theory, point out where I said it was evidence based? Because I recall saying that it was opinion based and some good ole personal experience. I don't believe you can be MORE shutdown after you're already shut down. You can't start negative hormone production.. I do however believe that we can become desensitized to high hormone levels, which is the only point I was trying to make. Do I have data proving what I believe to be fact? No I don't. T

No disrespect intended toward either of you gentlemen. I truly didn't want to debate this because I knew what would happen. If there is no medical evidence supporting a theory, then it's deemed broscience. Which it may be, but personally I believe it.

You are talking about androgen receptors being down regulated and there is no science which has supported this. You have myostatin increase after 8 weeks, which could be seen as a tolerance per say. But that is tolerance to building muscle and not receptor regulation. I already explained this to you but you didn't understand. I have already heard and pondered these kinds of theories in the past so me shutting you down was just because of that. It's not that it hasn't been considered, it is an old topic.

Read this thread:

Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivity?

 

[NeedleCheeks]

You are talking about androgen receptors being down regulated and there is no science which has supported this. You have myostatin increase after 8 weeks, which could be seen as a tolerance per say. But that is tolerance to building muscle and not receptor regulation. I already explained this to you but you didn't understand. I have already heard and pondered these kinds of theories in the past so me shutting you down was just because of that. It's not that it hasn't been considered, it is an old topic.

Read this thread:

Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivity?

Goodness you're condescending lol. I understand receptor down regulation has been proven false, thats why I didn't bring it up. But I still believe our bodies can develop a tolerance in one form or another. I don't know by what mechanism, but it is what I believe. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it here.

 

[Sworder]

Goodness you're condescending lol. I understand receptor down regulation has been proven false, thats why I didn't bring it up. But I still believe our bodies can develop a tolerance in one form or another. I don't know by what mechanism, but it is what I believe. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it here.

Tolerance isn't an appropriate term for what you are saying. That is why I am saying downregulation doesn't exist in the sense that you are trying to describe it. Downregulation is the word you are wanting to use, or desensitization of the receptors.
What you are saying is that there is not only downregulation on the androgen receptor, but seratonin and dopamine receptors as well. That is a very broad statement and the way you phrased it wasn't very specific.
It's like saying, I think there is a higher power. Not like god, but just something. Too broad to argue for or against.
Sure we can agree to disagree, read the thread I linked. I think it would give you some insight, and there is another thread there that I linked too. Read that one as well.

 

[Docd187123]

I truly don't care to debate this topic honestly. Also who said 1g shut them down less than 500mg? My only point, (which is based on opinion and personal experience) was that once your body becomes tolerant to massive doses of hormones for extended periods of time, normal levels of testosterone don't provide the same effect. If your body adapts to having extremely high test levels for EXTENDED periods of time, going back to normal range test levels will seem like low T, because your body has adapted to that being the new normal. Of course this isn't the case for every little cycle, so don't misunderstand. But I do believe the higher the level of hormones your body adapts to, the more it needs to function normally. Nobody has to agree with me, it doesn't matter really. This is just my belief. Also, the term "Doc" being in his username doesn't make him a doctor nor an expert lol. However I'm sure he's knoweledgable, nobody has really done studies on the differences of effects on the body from high to moderate doses for extended periods of time. Not specifically for the concept I'm describing at least.

Just look at Jay cutler. The guy was probably running grams of every steroid in the book, year round, for years straight. Nowadays he's just on TRT and he always looks depressed, lethargic and unmotivated. I believe his body is so accustomed to such a variety of massive hormone levels, that he feels like shit on TRT alone.

I am not a doctor and I've stated it many times. As you pointed out it's simply my username derived from an old nickname.

I understand what your getting at but you're describing it incorrectly. It is not a tolerance to high doses. What happens, assuming you've gone past your genetic potential, is you require a certain hormonal level to maintain the mass you've put on beyond your genetic potential. Your genetics and natural hormonal levels will only sustain so much muscle mass which is obvious otherwise there'd be no genetic potential limit. Once exceeded, supraphysiological levels will be needed to maintain this progress and to make continued progress. Describing it as a tolerance, desensitization, down regulation is incorrect and/or misleading.

The other part of the issue, as with ppl like Cutler in your example, is psychological/psychosomatic issues. You become so accustomed to feeling "normal" on high doses that a true "normal" level doesn't feel "normal" anymore. Again, this isn't tolerance or anything of the sort.

 

[Big-Amsterdam]

the real difference i feel when shooting 1gr a week. i dont know why this is but 1gr+ just gives me a totally different feeling in my body. dont know if it realy makes my muscles grow faster then 500 or 750 but the feeling is just from another planet.

 

[BuckEighty]

I disagree. Yes, shutdown is shutdown but think about it this way. If you run 1500mg of testosterone on one cycle and only run 500mg on the next cycle, you won't see nearly the same results. When you take a high dose of steroids your body adapts to that. The body becomes homeostatic with that massive load of hormones. The high levels of hormones become the new normal, the new standard. So once your body adapts and adjusts to that 1500mg of testosterone being the new normal, once you go back down to regular human levels of testosterone the body feels like it has low T. Personally I believe once our body's become use to massive doses of steroids for extended periods of time, even if you're able to return to the upper range of endogenous test levels, you will still experience symptoms of low T. If you walk around for 6 months with 8500ng/dl test levels and then go back to 850ng/dl you're not going to feel like a high test male anymore. Your body wants superhuman levels of test now and at that point 850ng/dl (which is high for natural levels) is low T to your body.

So by the same notion, if you come off and recover your natural test levels/endogenous production, your body will eventually adapt and consider that the new normal, and any symptoms of low T will abate - maybe?

 

[jJjburton]

If you shoot 1500 mg of test compared to 500 mg. You would need to wait longer for it to clear your system in order to start PCT.

 

[BuckEighty]

If you shoot 1500 mg of test compared to 500 mg. You would need to wait longer for it to clear your system in order to start PCT.

Unless I run prop at the end of the cycle

 

[Big G]

I find that 750 test is my sweet spot. I haven't noticed any worse sides than on 500. Mood is about the same, really.

The gains are substantially better, though. I'm going to run 1000mg not next cycle but the one after to see how that works out since I liked 750 so much.

When I bumped to 1000mg from 750mg the gains were that much better....Fucking loved it.....

 

[Sworder]

If you shoot 1500 mg of test compared to 500 mg. You would need to wait longer for it to clear your system in order to start PCT.

Not true

 

[jJjburton]

Not true

the half life makes the time for it to get out of system longer though.... right?

 

[Sworder]

the half life makes the time for it to get out of system longer though.... right?

4-5 times the half life is the period it takes for a compound to be considered eliminated. Since the half life is the same. The wait is the same regardless of dose.
If you do the math you will see there is very little difference in the mg you are left with. Especially if you consider the mg/day being metabolized.
Merry Christmas all btw