Dr Jims Hplc/ms Data

Oh sure and that was my interpretation.

Yet it's also symbolic of how many physicians limit their own medical practice, needlessly referring patients to consultants bc they choose not to diversify and learn anything outside of their "speciality".

TRT is just one great example.

Jim
 
Oh sure and that was my interpretation.

Yet it's also symbolic of how many physicians limit their own medical practice, needlessly referring patients to consultants bc they choose not to diversify and learn anything outside of their "speciality".

TRT is just one great example.

Jim


It's the fault of the universities, IMO. The admissions criteria is supposed to be designed to select bright and well rounded, altruistic students. In actuality, it favors students who tend to be self-serving, narrow minded and good test takers.

It begins with the med schools' obsession with grades. Grades are everything. Premed students limit their courses to the prerequisites, and only choose electives that give easy A's. Why choose a challenging elective that could teach you something useful if it might drag down your gpa when basket weaving is a sure thing? It's in the student's best interest to have an artificially high gpa rather than a better education. The average engineering student with a 3.5 gpa is helluva lot smarter than the average premed with a 4.0. Nobody would argue that. But it doesn't matter. It's a numbers game.

The schools want students with clinical experience. How does someone unqualified get experience doing a job that requires qualifications? Unless they were a nurse or something similar, they don't - at least not anything meaningful. And never mind the fact that giving students clinical experience is supposed to be the school's job. Regardless, in order to gain this all important clinical experience, premeds spend a few hours a week volunteering at the old folks home, dumping bedpans or wheeling demented 90-year-old ladies up and down the hallways. The students only do it because they have to - they know it's bullshit - and granny doesn't know the difference. But as soon as the admissions committee sees that nursing home experience on the application, they check that box and say, '"Oh, boy! This one knows their way around a hospital" Big deal! So does the janitor.

The schools want high scores on the MCATs, so students pay somebody to prep them by narrowing the focus to only the bare minimum needed to ensure they get a score over 30. Doesn't matter if they actually understand the material, as long as they can score high enough on the test to make admissions happy, that's all that matters. Check that box off too.

Then there's the interview. This is the biggest farce. This is where you have a bunch of doctors pretending to be expert interrogators as they try to weed out the assholes and narcissists from the altruists. But given the high number of assholes and narcissists working in the medical field, it's obvious they haven't been too successful. But I digress. The students already know the questions because there are prep courses, and books and websites for the interview, too. As long as the student is prepared, they just have to be charming, feed them some song and dance about their many and varied extracurricular activities, and show some awareness about current events in the field. Do that and they've got it made. Check that box off.

There's more but you get the idea. The result of all this is that most of the students who get accepted lack creativity and the ability to innovate. They're boring, narcissistic and the complete opposite of well-rounded. They're usually bright, but not that bright. They tend to be followers who do what they're told because that's what the system rewards. They "choose not to diversify and learn anything outside of their specialty" because that's the type of person they are, and always have been - and more importantly, they were rewarded for it. They got into med school, didn't they? What incentive is there for them to do more? None that I can see. Who knows, maybe this is enough to successfully practice cookbook medicine. But the next Jonas Salk and Frederic Banting they will never be.

End of rant.:eek:
 
It's the fault of the universities, IMO. The admissions criteria is supposed to be designed to select bright and well rounded, altruistic students. In actuality, it favors students who tend to be self-serving, narrow minded and good test takers.

It begins with the med schools' obsession with grades. Grades are everything. Premed students limit their courses to the prerequisites, and only choose electives that give easy A's. Why choose a challenging elective that could teach you something useful if it might drag down your gpa when basket weaving is a sure thing? It's in the student's best interest to have an artificially high gpa rather than a better education. The average engineering student with a 3.5 gpa is helluva lot smarter than the average premed with a 4.0. Nobody would argue that. But it doesn't matter. It's a numbers game.

The schools want students with clinical experience. How does someone unqualified get experience doing a job that requires qualifications? Unless they were a nurse or something similar, they don't - at least not anything meaningful. And never mind the fact that giving students clinical experience is supposed to be the school's job. Regardless, in order to gain this all important clinical experience, premeds spend a few hours a week volunteering at the old folks home, dumping bedpans or wheeling demented 90-year-old ladies up and down the hallways. The students only do it because they have to - they know it's bullshit - and granny doesn't know the difference. But as soon as the admissions committee sees that nursing home experience on the application, they check that box and say, '"Oh, boy! This one knows their way around a hospital" Big deal! So does the janitor.

The schools want high scores on the MCATs, so students pay somebody to prep them by narrowing the focus to only the bare minimum needed to ensure they get a score over 30. Doesn't matter if they actually understand the material, as long as they can score high enough on the test to make admissions happy, that's all that matters. Check that box off too.

Then there's the interview. This is the biggest farce. This is where you have a bunch of doctors pretending to be expert interrogators as they try to weed out the assholes and narcissists from the altruists. But given the high number of assholes and narcissists working in the medical field, it's obvious they haven't been too successful. But I digress. The students already know the questions because there are prep courses, and books and websites for the interview, too. As long as the student is prepared, they just have to be charming, feed them some song and dance about their many and varied extracurricular activities, and show some awareness about current events in the field. Do that and they've got it made. Check that box off.

There's more but you get the idea. The result of all this is that most of the students who get accepted lack creativity and the ability to innovate. They're boring, narcissistic and the complete opposite of well-rounded. They're usually bright, but not that bright. They tend to be followers who do what they're told because that's what the system rewards. They "choose not to diversify and learn anything outside of their specialty" because that's the type of person they are, and always have been - and more importantly, they were rewarded for it. They got into med school, didn't they? What incentive is there for them to do more? None that I can see. Who knows, maybe this is enough to successfully practice cookbook medicine. But the next Jonas Salk and Frederic Banting they will never be.

End of rant.:eek:


Before I can begin my rant, define what you mean by smarter. TIMES UP :)

I mean who cares if engineers are not the most socially adept professionals I just want my car to start every cold morning and by the same token little of what is considered important as pre-med admission criteria are ever used in medicine.

The best docs are those that are "problem solvers" which emphasizes deductive reasoning from a more practical rather than a theoretical perspective.

Another must for most medical specialities is the desire or ability to develop or innately possess a broad and strong sense human nature. Now does that mean the best docs need to sit at the bedside and hold a patients hand in some scripted fashion not at all. I'm simply referring to understanding the why of any patients presentation and doing whatever is required to expose the varied motives many patients have for their visit TODAY.

The use of that virtue is probably one of the most important, but often overlooked, aspect of medicine and one in which few engineers will ever need especially from a more generalized perspective.

Many people wrongly believe doctors are "smart" and while it's true their mean intelligence scores are probably higher than the general population, this commonly held belief is more likely the consequence of knowing, understanding and practicing within a profession that is relevant to is ALL.

What distinguishes the practice of medicine from almost all others professions, the drive and commitment required to complete at least TEN YEARS of post high school education, being a pauper throughout that interval and acquiring a debt that rivals that S and L "crisis" of yesteryear.

For myself it was some 13 years if post high school education and the debt after it was all said and done $ 234,000.00!

Was it all "worth it"? You betcha, IMO!

Regs
Jim
 
I mean who cares if engineers are not the most socially adept professionals I just want my car to start every cold morning and by the same token little of what is considered important as pre-med admission criteria are ever used in medicine.

[You don't know the meaning of cold mornings.:)]

I'm not suggesting engineering students should go to med school just because they tend to be bright. I'm only pointing out that the emphasis med schools place on gpa has resulted in premed students sacrificing the quality of their education for grades. IOW, premed students are shortchanging themselves by taking advanced puppetry because they know they'll get an A and protect their precious gpa, but they would be better served by taking linear algebra and only getting a B, or even a C. They can't do that, though, because it would hurt their chances of getting in. The whole thing is phony and stupid.


The best docs are those that are "problem solvers" which emphasizes deductive reasoning from a more practical rather than a theoretical perspective.

I agree with this but I don't think there's a difference between the ability to solve practical and theoretical problems; i.e., a problem is a problem. Regardless, the premed path most follow does little to develop problem solving skills unless one considers the process of figuring out how to get into med school problem solving.

Another must for most medical specialities is the desire or ability to develop or innately possess a broad and strong sense human nature.

The use of that virtue is probably one of the most important, but often overlooked, aspect of medicine and one in which few engineers will ever need especially from a more generalized perspective.

Agreed. I would only add that I believe the ability to understand human nature is innate and cannot be taught.


Many people wrongly believe doctors are "smart" and while it's true their mean intelligence scores are probably higher than the general population, this commonly held belief is more likely the consequence of knowing, understanding and practicing within a profession that is relevant to is ALL.

Most people are dumb, and to a dummy, anyone who's not a dummy looks pretty damned smart.

[Useless trivia: The studies I've seen suggested the average IQ of physicians is 125]

What distinguishes the practice of medicine from almost all others professions, the drive and commitment required to complete at least TEN YEARS of post high school education, being a pauper throughout that interval and acquiring a debt that rivals that S and L "crisis" of yesteryear.

Absolutely, but that in no way proves you'll be a good physician. There are many possible reasons for why someone would do it - money, prestige, etc. IMO, what distinguishes medicine from almost all other professions is that you won't be any good at it if your reasons for doing it aren't altruistic. Do you agree?

For myself it was some 13 years if post high school education and the debt after it was all said and done $ 234,000.00!

Was it all "worth it"? You betcha, IMO!

It's only money, right? You've made that back at least 100 times over. ;)
 
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Of course that's what I'm trying to accomplish but some have a broader depth of understanding than others.

Ever asked a first year medical student what they "learned" after attending a lecture designed for 3rd year EM residents?

Much to Millard's credit Meso has become a potpourri of forum "members" whose interests are as broad as the threads posted.

Now all that is fine and dandy, but then again Meso also has it's fair share of "evil doers", whose only interest, IMO, is the pursuit of the almighty dollar and unfortunately many UGLs are designed with that purpose in mind, money making machines!




To that end, when greedy people of that ilk are wanting to find fault with you or your commentary they WILL uncover reasons to criticize one's motives.

For example if I post say 11 pages one for each sample then I'm accused of "withholding potentially exculpatory evidence" yet if I include no less than 3 pages per sample, why then I'm overwhelming them with "useless data" in an effort to support "my position", even though I HAVEN'T ONE.

I may be accused of being condescending in an effort to belittle others by "talking over" their level of understanding or if I speak in terms that are to simplistic the accusation morphs into, that F..ing Jim doesn't know what he talking about.

So yea it's hard being me, :)

Thank you for doing this work @Dr JIM. How anyone can be critical of the way you present data completely baffles me. In today's "all about me" society so many people simply expect everything to be done for them and have no appreciatiation for the risk, expense, & time this sort of testing takes. While some of the data in your posts is not easy for me to understand, I have learned a lot about testing and other subjects by looking up terms and doing my best to understand the more technical subjects.
Some people love their doctor because he has excellent bedside manner (is nice), prescribes whatever they ask for, & looks like their grandpa. My doctor sounds like Adolph Hitler, has terrible breath, and is reviewed poorly on every patient feedback site for just these reasons. He also attended/teaches at Harvard Med, is a leading researcher in his specialty, and has come up with creative solutions to some chronic issues I struggled with for years. I could care less if he is nice.
Does this batch of samples contain the Naps HG product? Very interested to see the results. Thanks again.
 
Considering the incredible stupidity of many of the engineers I graduated with that's a really disturbing thought.

Just because many engineers can't communicate effectively with other homosapiens doesn't imply they are "stupid" F, it just means they are not endowed with the gift of gab!
 
Just because many engineers can't communicate effectively with other homosapiens doesn't imply they are "stupid" F, it just means they are not endowed with the gift of gab!

Very true, I was employed as the social interface between the engineering department and the outside world.

They were very smart and as egotistical in there own way as a Doctor with a god complex.

Can't count how many "form must follow function" arguments I had to mediate.
 
Just because many engineers can't communicate effectively with other homosapiens doesn't imply they are "stupid" F, it just means they are not endowed with the gift of gab!
Heh, I'm the one with Asperger's. They could gab just fine. But there was a serious lack of real world understanding, not many I would have wanted to work with. Maybe that goes away with age and experience. All of the engineers I work with now are very capable.
 
Hey I'm not knocking engineers one of my best Meso mates is one.

People need to find their own occupational niches bc when they don't Doctors think they are Engineers, and Engineers believe they are Doctors :)
 
People need to find their own occupational niches bc when they don't Doctors think they are Engineers, and Engineers believe they are Doctors :)

Yet they both have something in common. Neither one can be trusted to pull over when the red check engine light comes on in their car. It is amazing how many people today cannot perform simple mechanical tasks even though they may be exceptionjal in another field. Specialization is killing us. 50 years ago my grandfather could do both, now, not so much. I am also pretty sure the majority of either field better hope beyond hope they are never thrust into a survival situation. It seems there is always a trade-off. Advance far into one field and lose sight of other aspects, even ones that might be important someday.
 
People need to find their own occupational niches bc when they don't Doctors think they are Engineers, and Engineers believe they are Doctors :)

Yet they both have something in common. Neither one can be trusted to pull over when the red check engine light comes on in their car. It is amazing how many people today cannot perform simple mechanical tasks even though they may be exceptionjal in another field. Specialization is killing us. 50 years ago my grandfather could do both, now, not so much. I am also pretty sure the majority of either field better hope beyond hope they are never thrust into a survival situation. It seems there is always a trade-off. Advance far into one field and lose sight of other aspects, even ones that might be important someday.[/QUOTE]
Isn't this the fucking truth I take pride in being able to fix my own shit when it brakes for the most part , somewhat of a Jack of all trades to an extent. These days the people don't have even the most basic understanding of anything let alone how things work. It's a real shame , I'm not much for conspiracy theories but I do believe this is by design. The American education system is rapidly dumbing down the population. Morons are much easier to control than free men and women who can think for themselves and do for themselves.
 
Just because many engineers can't communicate effectively with other homosapiens doesn't imply they are "stupid" F, it just means they are not endowed with the gift of gab!
My job requires me to repair the work of engineers, so yeah, in general they've proven to me they're stupid as FUCK in some cases. And I doubt any here are related to my line of work so NO personal attack is intended.
 
Watch what you say about Engineers!!! I know two of them on here...
 
There's probably a few here! Unless they designed what I have to work on, I have no beef with them! I also have seen 3 Doctors who are dumb as fuck. Those on here who either ARE Drs or simply use the handle have so far proven worthy and get my respect, so don't trip over my post as slamming all of any breed and just the same, I can't give high praise to everyone just because of a title.
 
One is electrical and the "other" designs underground utilities!
 
I am a Rocket Scientist, but I also engineer.. ed the rocket..
Like I will take it for a fly around the block every now and then
to work out issues with the thrusters..
Yea, it's not that hard once you learn how the servos and jiblets work..

M
 
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