Enclophime 12.5mg EOD as test base for oral cycle

[Satomi]

Hi,

Does anyone have experience with enclomiphene (not clomid) as test base for a cycle with orals such as anadrol/anavar/tbol/dbol?

So far i've only seen anecdotal experiences (and bloodwork) from Sarms only users: one had 900ng/dl total test at week 4 of S23+ LGD3303 +LGD4033 (which is a very fucking suppressive Sarm cycle, since S23 was literally designed to suppress FSH production as a male contraceptive - and he also used a bit of Tbol).
Source:
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/sarmssourcetalk/comments/dt0ztx/s23_3303_4033_blood_work_no_test_base/


I'm guessing anavar and tbol should be fine in decent doses as these tend not be very suppressive.

Also, to my surprise, found out that anadrol presents very low levels of suppression: over 6 months of 100 mg daily anadrol administrations, male patients got their total T reduced by only 60% (and part of it is just substantially lower SBHG levels)
Source:Effect of Oral Anabolic Steroid on Muscle Strength and Muscle Growth in Hemodialysis Patients

Dbol seems to me the most suppressive out of the bunch from studies.

Sidenotes: Yes, i'm aware that hcg+test exists. I've done it on a past cycle with hcg 250ui EOD, test 250/week + anavar 50mg . Storing and carrying hcg is extremely burdensome if i'm not at home for more than 3 days and i wanna keep my balls big and LH production running. Also want to explore the possibility of having my hpta running during cycle to provide a smooth cycle exit.

What i'm planing on trying to do (will post bloods 4-6 weeks in): Enclomiphene 12.5mg EOD + RAD140 7.5mg ED sublingual + anadrol 50mg pre-workout 2-3x week+ dbol 5mg 2xED sublingual + 12.5 anavar 2xED sublingual
With TUDCA + NAC + Choline to support this shitfest obviously

 

[RiceNKimchi]

This is the dream.... or someone's dream I want to take hpta suppressing substances without getting suppressed. Look around man emclo is newer but clomid has been around. Huge thread on this with clomid use on amother site. Acedotal bloods and all.

Tldr. It does not work.

 

[RiceNKimchi]

Better luck with naltrexone. Some promising studies but none of the pros touch it.... seems like there's a reason. But, we can always piss in the wind.

 

[Satomi]

This is the dream.... or someone's dream I want to take hpta suppressing substances without getting suppressed. Look around man emclo is newer but clomid has been around. Huge thread on this with clomid use on amother site. Acedotal bloods and all.

Tldr. It does not work.

link?

 

[MA11]

The problem with anecdotes is their subjectivity and the usually missing long term results. Very rarely there is a follow up.

I've seen redditors claiming that (en)clomiphene works for them many times. Or that boron reduces SHGB sufficiently. Yet months later after these claims you'll find these guys in r/steroids or r/trt pinning test because that other stuff didn't work long term or didn't work good enough.

However it seems that there isn't much risk in a couple weeks of enclomiphene and a (not so toxic) oral. So I understand that one might try.

If you decide to move on with your plan, I'd appreciate if you share your experiences.
Good luck.

 

[Satomi]

The problem with anecdotes is their subjectivity and the usually missing long term results. Very rarely there is a follow up.

I've seen redditors claiming that (en)clomiphene works for them many times. Or that boron reduces SHGB sufficiently. Yet months later after these claims you'll find these guys in r/steroids or r/trt pinning test because that other stuff didn't work long term or didn't work good enough.

However it seems that there isn't much risk in a couple weeks of enclomiphene and a (not so toxic) oral. So I understand that one might try.

If you decide to move on with your plan, I'd appreciate if you share your experiences.
Good luck.

Will post it here. Probably around end of November since i'm still recovering from last cycle. Cheers

 

[RiceNKimchi]

link?

https://anabolicminds.com/community/threads/clomid-during-cycle.301579/

 

[narta]

Pin or GTFO

 

[HB_22]

Pin or GTFO

I was thinking about leaving a clever comment but this pretty much nailed it haha.


Long story short: there is no way you can take exogenous hormones and trick your hpta to keep working.

 

[Horror Cock]

"Infusions of pure androgen (5-α-dihydrotestosterone) for 108 h selectively inhibited LH pulse frequency while estradiol-17β selectively suppressed LH pulse amplitude but not frequency. Naltrexone blocked both effects, restoring LH pulse frequency and peak amplitude; it also increased pulse frequency when combined with estradiol-17β."

Was a study on men given naltrexone.

I just searched this forum for naltrexone and saw the comment above about pros not touching it. Why don't they touch it? There is the "low dose naltrexone" thing which has been evaluated for treating many fucked up diseases. At least they usually conclude that naltrexone is very safe. Is rodents NAL lowers cortisol and raises T, and it doesn't appear to change effects long term (unlike nalmefene) so the theory of opioid upregulation is out with naltrexone, though men tend to get increased cortisol both acutely and long term. In females it barely affects sex hormones. Most men taking it report sky high libido. You say pros don't touch it... not even for PCT? Because pros do use tamoxifen and we know just how fucking toxic that thing is. Some pros even used synthol... or dumber shit... pros aren't omniscient.

So, has anyone taken naltrexone long term?

 

[RiceNKimchi]

"Infusions of pure androgen (5-α-dihydrotestosterone) for 108 h selectively inhibited LH pulse frequency while estradiol-17β selectively suppressed LH pulse amplitude but not frequency. Naltrexone blocked both effects, restoring LH pulse frequency and peak amplitude; it also increased pulse frequency when combined with estradiol-17β."

Was a study on men given naltrexone.

I just searched this forum for naltrexone and saw the comment above about pros not touching it. Why don't they touch it? There is the "low dose naltrexone" thing which has been evaluated for treating many fucked up diseases. At least they usually conclude that naltrexone is very safe. Is rodents NAL lowers cortisol and raises T, and it doesn't appear to change effects long term (unlike nalmefene) so the theory of opioid upregulation is out with naltrexone, though men tend to get increased cortisol both acutely and long term. In females it barely affects sex hormones. Most men taking it report sky high libido. You say pros don't touch it... not even for PCT? Because pros do use tamoxifen and we know just how fucking toxic that thing is. Some pros even used synthol... or dumber shit... pros aren't omniscient.

So, has anyone taken naltrexone long term?

I had a conversation with Dr.D, if anyone remembers him, about this. He said it's not common but the knew some pros that have tried LDN, putting it very basically.

 

[Horror Cock]

I had a conversation with Dr.D, if anyone remembers him, about this. He said it's not common but the knew some pros that have tried LDN, putting it very basically.

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/gysieh/comment/ftdy47r/


Though he used SERM along. Tamoxifen and toremifene share 100% of the same side effects from what I know (including reduced steroidogenesis). I wonder if he could get by with aromasin for lower estrogen and herbs like ginseng and pterostilbene for partial replacement of what estrogen is needed for. And androgens do a lot for the bone in high doses too: Influence of aromatase inhibition on the bone-protective effects of testosterone - PubMed

 

[RiceNKimchi]

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/gysieh/comment/ftdy47r/


Though he used SERM along. Tamoxifen and toremifene share 100% of the same side effects from what I know (including reduced steroidogenesis). I wonder if he could get by with aromasin for lower estrogen and herbs like ginseng and pterostilbene for partial replacement of what estrogen is needed for. And androgens do a lot for the bone in high doses too: Influence of aromatase inhibition on the bone-protective effects of testosterone - PubMed

There are studies, all on animals, that support LDN to retain LH function at the time that i knew of back then, but I respected dr.ds and he wasn't to adamant to recommend. I'll see if I can find the convo but it's been years... 50mg seems high iirc

 

[Horror Cock]

There are studies, all on animals, that support LDN to retain LH function at the time that i knew of back then, but I respected dr.ds and he wasn't to adamant to recommend. I'll see if I can find the convo but it's been years... 50mg seems high iirc

One study in rats found 3mg/kg more effective than 1.5mg/kg. If the ratio is really about 6× converting to humans, that is 0.5mg/kg. A 100kg man would benefit from 50mg more than 25mg if the conversion was that simple. On the other hand, it is said only like 5% is bioavailable to humans, and further metabolites are more active. Don't know the bioavailability in rats to compare.

Have you heard of bazedoxifene? Sounds like the perfect SERM without a lot of the side effects.

 

[RiceNKimchi]

One study in rats found 3mg/kg more effective than 1.5mg/kg. If the ratio is really about 6× converting to humans, that is 0.5mg/kg. A 100kg man would benefit from 50mg more than 25mg if the conversion was that simple. On the other hand, it is said only like 5% is bioavailable to humans, and further metabolites are more active. Don't know the bioavailability in rats to compare.

Have you heard of bazedoxifene? Sounds like the perfect SERM without a lot of the side effects.

Rat studies do not always transfer over. We're not a new sport and I believe more would be doing it if it was worth it. I can't find the convo anymore though.

 

[Horror Cock]

Rat studies do not always transfer over. We're not a new sport and I believe more would be doing it if it was worth it. I can't find the convo anymore though.

clearly human studies all conclude that male testosterone levels rise dramatically.

There were some concerns of cortisol rising, in one other forum, and I did see the charts where average cortisol was heightened, but they did not separate by gender, and I found this: "In support of the current results, the studies that did compare sexes indicated that men have no, or minimal, cortisol response to naltrexone, while women are highly responsive (Klein et al., 2000; Lovallo et al., 2012b; Roche et al., 2010);

Sex differences in acute hormonal and subjective response to naltrexone: the impact of menstrual cycle phase - PMC

Women often exhibit larger hormonal and subjective responses to opioid receptor antagonists than men, but the biological mechanisms mediating this effect remain unclear. Among women, fluctuations in estradiol (E2) and progesterone (P4) across the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Prolactin barely changed in men but LH heightened very significantly. Cortisol... I guess you can take ashwagandha and cyproheptadine which also mildly boosts LH while blunting cortisol production.

Like I said above, there is SERM bazedoxifene without pancreatic, liver, endometrial cancers (probably translates to prostate cancer) but few bodybuilders die from prostate issues and the lipids are negatively affected by tamoxifen. Why is tamoxifen still so popular?

Therefore, just because your steroid vendor doesn't carry opioid antagonists and therefore the pros don't bother taking it (what pros aren't on TRT anyway?) That adds 0 weight on the possibility of naltrexone not working.

That study I just linked did not post testosterone levels, but human studies did previously.

Endocrinology: The effect of nalmefene on pulsatile secretion of luteinizing hormone and prolactin in men
Abstract "...Both naloxone and nalmefene resulted in a significant increase in LH pulse frequency and in mean serum LH and testosterone concentrations with no change in LH pulse amplitude, prolactin pulse frequency or amplitude..."

 

[Horror Cock]

clearly human studies all conclude that male testosterone levels rise dramatically.

There were some concerns of cortisol rising, in one other forum, and I did see the charts where average cortisol was heightened, but they did not separate by gender, and I found this: "In support of the current results, the studies that did compare sexes indicated that men have no, or minimal, cortisol response to naltrexone, while women are highly responsive (Klein et al., 2000; Lovallo et al., 2012b; Roche et al., 2010);

Sex differences in acute hormonal and subjective response to naltrexone: the impact of menstrual cycle phase - PMC

Women often exhibit larger hormonal and subjective responses to opioid receptor antagonists than men, but the biological mechanisms mediating this effect remain unclear. Among women, fluctuations in estradiol (E2) and progesterone (P4) across the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 272881

View attachment 272882
Prolactin barely changed in men but LH heightened very significantly. Cortisol... I guess you can take ashwagandha and cyproheptadine which also mildly boosts LH while blunting cortisol production.

Like I said above, there is SERM bazedoxifene without pancreatic, liver, endometrial cancers (probably translates to prostate cancer) but few bodybuilders die from prostate issues and the lipids are negatively affected by tamoxifen. Why is tamoxifen still so popular?

Therefore, just because your steroid vendor doesn't carry opioid antagonists and therefore the pros don't bother taking it (what pros aren't on TRT anyway?) That adds 0 weight on the possibility of naltrexone not working.

That study I just linked did not post testosterone levels, but human studies did previously.

(Did not go through the PDF yet, will do after posting this) Endocrinology: The effect of nalmefene on pulsatile secretion of luteinizing hormone and prolactin in men
Abstract "...Both naloxone and nalmefene resulted in a significant increase in LH pulse frequency and in mean serum LH and testosterone concentrations with no change in LH pulse amplitude, prolactin pulse frequency or amplitude..."

They must have screwed up the units in that last study paper:

But at least an opioid blocker was able to raise by 50%. All healthy males not having done any drugs.

 

[Horror Cock]

I suppose high doses of naltrexone are required for a dramatic T spike. Or a pro drug that improves bioavailability, by a 6:1 conversion a 100kg man would need 50mg for the same dose that got rats 250% testosterone compared to control.

My best guess why not naltrexone, is the strange variation in bioavailability.

 

[Horror Cock]

JCI - Role of endogenous opiates in the expression of negative feedback actions of androgen and estrogen on pulsatile properties of luteinizing hormone secretion in man.

www.jci.org

"naltrexone elixir (1 mg/kg) was administered orally"
4 days after continuous iv administration of DHT (or estrogen), DHT dose was 10× the amount we produce naturally from what I know (7mg per day).
And 12 hours more IV continued.

Correct me if I misunderstood, but 10× the natural production of DHT was administered IV, and then the mean LH levels were still slightly higher with naltrexone than control placebo?

I think it really suits AAS users more than healthy people who would use it for a "boost". Because another rodent study stated that low T subjects respond far better than normal T subjects.

 

[Horror Cock]

When I think about this very thread's first question, enclomiphene, it is obviously better than clomid because the zuclomiphene not only lowers LH but agonized reproductive tissues. And also having a long half life, people have had it accumulate and their liver enzymes stayed high weeks after quitting.

So, WHY DID FDA FUCK ON ENCLOMIPHENE? They approved clomid but not the superior version? Maybe it's simply... because having men suppressed is profitable? Enclo is a bit of a different scenario from naltrexone, and even more conclusive. When I was asking my domestic source for enclo, he said most guys take his clomid and tamoxifen and it usually does the job. The same way we know these two are more toxic than enclo, enclo is more toxic than naltrexone (in different ways, such as reducing steroidogenic enzymes.)