musclesiege
Member
Yes my body is weird, I aromatize a lot for a lower dosage but never get any sides. It does not go up in a linear fashion either, when I’m on 500 test my e2 is around the same and with 0.5mg of adex per week it keeps me 40-50 e2.
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musclesiege
Member
I agree, 40-50 is my sweet spot for e2. When I was at 120 only thing I noticed was a little water retention.
fike
Member
Same here. It was actually a lot of water retention in my case. I lost 12 lbs in a week when I introduced. .25 mg twice weekly to my regimen.
GuerillaPete
Well-known Member
Not using the sensitive estradiol test with EQ simply is not proof of estradiol levels .
I have seen tests where estradiol was high with EQ and when retested with sensitive testing it was single digit.
Same was true with E1 levels
I have seen tests where estradiol was high with EQ and when retested with sensitive testing it was single digit.
Same was true with E1 levels
fike
Member
Explain the estrogenic side effects then. And then the estrogenic effects going away upon introduction of an AI. It wasn't simply a number not accompanied by anything. After introducing an AI my numbers went down. That's one of the points @Type-IIx was stating above in the thread. It was symptomatic accompanied by a high E2 reading.
I don't understand the dogma concerning this topic.
musclesiege
Member
I just got back the rest of the results for my bloods. Everyone is different and responds differently to compounds, a universal truth you learn here. EQ for me is not worth it. It kept my E2 down and I’ve noticed less water retention than previous cycles. However, my BP is the highest it’s ever been so I have to take 80mg of telmisartan to control it and I need that so I can also donate blood as my hematocrit is 55 vs 50 last blast, also my liver values were 38 on test and 50mg/day of var but 64 on eq and test. My test levels on 500mg test was just over 2500, on 400 test and 400 eq it’s 2682. So I tried EQ and it’s not for me, this is why we experiment.
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fike
Member
When you say people react differently to different compounds, I'm of this school of thought as well. I actually like EQ for the fact that it does raise my E2 a bit because mine is naturally very low, as in the high single digits and teens, which matches my SHBG levels fairly well, so I was explained that it kind of all equals out as being very normal because of he higher levels of Free E2 that is not bound up by my lower SHBG. I do take a 50 mg dose of losartan regardless of what I'm running, and my BP stays around 120/70 at its highest. I feel good on EQ if I run a small amount of an AI because it does a good job at bringing my E2 up. My joints and libido are better. I just feel happier in general. I attribute this to my E2 being raised to a higher level. You and I are affected by this compound in very different ways.
You are correct, though, sir. This is why we experiment. We are voluntary lab rats to figure out how things are going to affect us. It just gets under my skin a bit when people are so sure their answer is correct because it may be a norm. They will skip over some evidentiary details that are put forth or try to say things like "he wasn't using real EQ" just to make their experience or theory correct. There are almost always exceptions. Dogmatic thought really puts a damper on scientific thought, even bioscience. Dogma in science starts moving in the direction of religion rather science.
musclesiege
Member
I agree with you completely. There are few universal truths with steroids and training. So much is dependent on the person, their goals, work ethic, genetics, body response, diet. It’s not just right or wrong, it’s the truth as each person knows or experiences it. I am able to use the wisdom on here from others to guide my experiments on myself and go into it eyes wide open. Same with training style and splits as well as diet. I know my body doesn’t love eq and mast but does respond well to higher test, anavar, and Deca so far. Each blast I learn more or new things.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
Pete is still finding himself, I think he might be even younger than the board norm. I've had an outstanding series of interactions with him, totally reasonable, where he later revealed he was undergoing a newfound faith and exploring religion; and some less than stellar interactions where he seemed like he might be under the influence of trenbolone at minimum. If that were the case it's OK. I can relate, it was affecting my psyche for a while just some weeks ago.
Especially for those not in the USA, and even for many who are, living under regulatory regimes that protect patients from their own idiocy or from unscrupulous marketing of unnecessary medical procedures, sensitive and ultrasensitive estradiol assay are particularly difficult to acquire, and often totally impracticable.
When a constellation of symptoms arising out of estrogen predominance present in combination with supporting nonsensitive estradiol assay measures that are not encumbered by false positives or elevations (by, e.g., trenbolone, exemestane), these can be interpreted by someone skilled.
GuerillaPete
Well-known Member
The explanation is simple you have some estrogen but not estradiol that causes the symptoms.
So an ai ended the aromatization to that estrogen.
GuerillaPete
Well-known Member
I dare you to perform the tests with the ultra sensitive method and prove that you are right with proper testing that leaves no room for other interpretations as it should be.
GuerillaPete
Well-known Member
A non LC/MS test including trenbolone that is known to inflate estradiol readings
What on earth where you thinking here ?
@Type-IIx
Where you on tren or high maybe?
What on earth where you thinking here ?
@Type-IIx
Where you on tren or high maybe?
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
See the section subheading, "Illustrations of the Perils of Drawing Inferences or Conclusions from Laboratory Bloodwork from Diverse Internet Users...Limitations of Circulating Levels as an Index of Tissue-Specific Estrogen Regulation."
The point is that drawing any inferences (not to mind conclusions) from these divergent results is folly. They indicate to us one fact alone – merely that EQ and/or Primo seem to lower estrogenicity reflected by bloodwork in some instances.
If you believe that bloodwork posted on teh boardz is not colored by all sorts of confounding factors in virtually every instance you're a fool.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
How? Conditions have changed, but not the condition that this user does not have access to sensitive or ultrasensitive estradiol testing.
Your argument uses invalid reasoning a la the Perfect Solution Fallacy. You are also cherrypicking: evidence consistent with your erroneous belief that EQ cannot increase E2 is viewed as valid, and that which support EQ increasing E2 are treated as invalid/subject to heightened scrutiny.
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GuerillaPete
Well-known Member
Because the testing method used has been proven (by bloods) to be inaccurate.
Tren also pumps the e2 on this type of testing.
I don't care about my point I care about the truth.
When I'm wrong I admit it and fix it.
How can this be done ?
By finding people on the forum that run EQ and have access to LC/MS testing.
Asking them and possibly helping them(money)
To perform the following testings:
Total Estrogens, Estradiol,Estrone with the LC/MS method.
And repeat the LC/MS testing with added ai.
I think this would shed light on whats really going on with EQ.
ECLIA testing with EQ and tren just caused more confusion then anything and does NOT get us closer to the truth .
People say EQ is similar to Dbol how far fetched would it be that it aromatizes in to Methylestradiol or some similar estrogen?
I see you are more a analytical type of person where i’m a hands on experimental person.
You are the feminine energy and i’m the masculine thats why we lock horns now and then but make no mistake i am not afraid to be wrong if proven so.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
You're a fuckin' gobshite.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
If I were to add anything to Primobolan / Equipoise Crashed my E2 – Help! - MESO-Rx
It would be to bolster the (apparently controversial) evidence that EQ tends to increase E2.
Additional Data Demonstrating Increased Estradiol by EQ
From this very thread [post], @fike shared his bloodwork showing increased E2 (114 pg/mL [Very High]), without confounding factors (e.g., trenbolone, exemestane) using the perfectly valid nonsensitive E2 (Roche ECLIA) assay: EQ (600 mg) + Var (350 - 700 mg) + Test (200 mg) :
Animal data (same CYP19A1 Aromatase gene) showing dose-dependency to the increase to E2 (and decrease to T) by EQ:
Mechanistic data from human placental microsomes demonstrating estrone and estradiol is produced by boldenone aromatization: Gual, C., Morato, T., Hayano, M., Gut, M., & Dorfman, R. I. (1962). Biosynthesis of Estrogens. Endocrinology, 71(6), 920–925. doi:10.1210/endo-71-6-920
It would be to bolster the (apparently controversial) evidence that EQ tends to increase E2.
Additional Data Demonstrating Increased Estradiol by EQ
From this very thread [post], @fike shared his bloodwork showing increased E2 (114 pg/mL [Very High]), without confounding factors (e.g., trenbolone, exemestane) using the perfectly valid nonsensitive E2 (Roche ECLIA) assay: EQ (600 mg) + Var (350 - 700 mg) + Test (200 mg) :
Animal data (same CYP19A1 Aromatase gene) showing dose-dependency to the increase to E2 (and decrease to T) by EQ:
Mechanistic data from human placental microsomes demonstrating estrone and estradiol is produced by boldenone aromatization: Gual, C., Morato, T., Hayano, M., Gut, M., & Dorfman, R. I. (1962). Biosynthesis of Estrogens. Endocrinology, 71(6), 920–925. doi:10.1210/endo-71-6-920
29trt
Well-known Member
might this increase in E2 with Eq be the reason some people get acne?
Even though this does not match my experience with taking 400mg eq + trt
I got some acne, small pimples like I get from high E2 but also a few nasty cystic ones like I get from high androgenic AAS.
Unfortunately I did not get E2 tested as where I live there is no way to get the sensitive assay.
going by looks I would say my E2 was low.... I looked dry and vascular... EQ is definetly a weird one...
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
Maybe. Probably not. Estrogens are usually associated with reduced acnea, androgens the opposite. When most women initiate hormonal birth control most see improved symptoms. Of course, hormones have unclear effects on it.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
So, I did some research on the supposed insensitivity of the "nonsensitive" (here, Roche ECLIA) estradiol radioimmunoassay.
From Krasowski MD, Drees D, Morris CS, Maakestad J, Blau JL, Ekins S. Cross-reactivity of steroid hormone immunoassays: clinical significance and two-dimensional molecular similarity prediction. BMC Clin Pathol. 2014 Jul 14;14:33. doi: 10.1186/1472-6890-14-33. PMID: 25071417; PMCID: PMC4112981:
Methods
...
Two-dimensional (2D) Similarity analysis
Comparison of similarity of test molecules to the target compounds of the steroid immunoassays used two-dimensional (2D) similarity analysis, which determines the similarity between molecules independent of any in vitro data (52-54)... 2D similarity searching used the "find similar molecules by fingerprints" protocol in Discovery Studio versions 2.5.5 and 3.5 (Accelrys, Inc. San Diego, California, USA). MDL public keys (a specific 2D similarity algorithm) were used with the Tanimoto similarity coefficient (ranging from 0 to 1 with 1 being maximally similar and 0 being maximally dissimilar) as an input query...
...
Estradiol immunoassay
Only estrone (0.54%) produced greater than 0.5% cross-reactivity on the Roche Elecsys Estradiol II immunoasay at a challenge of 1 µg/mL (1,000 ng/mL) (
See Table 3). Estriol, estropipate, ethinyl estradiol, 2-methoxy-estradiol, 17β-estradiol-3, 17-disulfate each produced very weak cross-reactivity between 0.05 and 0.5%. The aromatase inhibitors exemestane (Aromasin), formestane, and letrozole produced no detectable cross-reactivity (supported also by Krasowski, M. D., Drees, D., Morris, C. S., Maakestad, J., Blau, J. L., & Ekins, S. (2014). Cross-reactivity of steroid hormone immunoassays: clinical significance and two-dimensional molecular similarity prediction. BMC Clinical Pathology, 14(1). doi:10.1186/1472-6890-14-33).
Using the cross-reactivity values, the apparent estradiol concentration that could be produced on the Roche Elecsys immunoassay was estimated for compounds based on published serum/plasma concentrations if available (see Table 3). No compound was predicted to produce estradiol concentrations within the reference range for males or females. Even estriol, which can reach high concentrations in pregnancy, likely produces little or no clinically significant impact on the Roche estradiol immunoassay due to low cross-reactivity. The 2D similarities of estrone (0.882), ethinyl estradiol (0.943), and estriol (0.917) were higher than any of the (103 structurally similar, see 3. Estradiol sheet in Supplementary Materials workbook) compounds that were not cross-reactive on the Roche assay. See:
Supplementary Materials (1472-6890-14-33-S1.xlsx)
My understanding is that Derek from MPMD has done a YouTube video about supposed cross-reactivity of "some unknown estrogen" produced by EQ.
My conclusion is that he's pretty unreliable and his content is nothing more than entertaining.
From Krasowski MD, Drees D, Morris CS, Maakestad J, Blau JL, Ekins S. Cross-reactivity of steroid hormone immunoassays: clinical significance and two-dimensional molecular similarity prediction. BMC Clin Pathol. 2014 Jul 14;14:33. doi: 10.1186/1472-6890-14-33. PMID: 25071417; PMCID: PMC4112981:
Methods
...
Two-dimensional (2D) Similarity analysis
Comparison of similarity of test molecules to the target compounds of the steroid immunoassays used two-dimensional (2D) similarity analysis, which determines the similarity between molecules independent of any in vitro data (52-54)... 2D similarity searching used the "find similar molecules by fingerprints" protocol in Discovery Studio versions 2.5.5 and 3.5 (Accelrys, Inc. San Diego, California, USA). MDL public keys (a specific 2D similarity algorithm) were used with the Tanimoto similarity coefficient (ranging from 0 to 1 with 1 being maximally similar and 0 being maximally dissimilar) as an input query...
...
Estradiol immunoassay
Only estrone (0.54%) produced greater than 0.5% cross-reactivity on the Roche Elecsys Estradiol II immunoasay at a challenge of 1 µg/mL (1,000 ng/mL) (
See Table 3). Estriol, estropipate, ethinyl estradiol, 2-methoxy-estradiol, 17β-estradiol-3, 17-disulfate each produced very weak cross-reactivity between 0.05 and 0.5%. The aromatase inhibitors exemestane (Aromasin), formestane, and letrozole produced no detectable cross-reactivity (supported also by Krasowski, M. D., Drees, D., Morris, C. S., Maakestad, J., Blau, J. L., & Ekins, S. (2014). Cross-reactivity of steroid hormone immunoassays: clinical significance and two-dimensional molecular similarity prediction. BMC Clinical Pathology, 14(1). doi:10.1186/1472-6890-14-33).
Using the cross-reactivity values, the apparent estradiol concentration that could be produced on the Roche Elecsys immunoassay was estimated for compounds based on published serum/plasma concentrations if available (see Table 3). No compound was predicted to produce estradiol concentrations within the reference range for males or females. Even estriol, which can reach high concentrations in pregnancy, likely produces little or no clinically significant impact on the Roche estradiol immunoassay due to low cross-reactivity. The 2D similarities of estrone (0.882), ethinyl estradiol (0.943), and estriol (0.917) were higher than any of the (103 structurally similar, see 3. Estradiol sheet in Supplementary Materials workbook) compounds that were not cross-reactive on the Roche assay. See:
Supplementary Materials (1472-6890-14-33-S1.xlsx)
My understanding is that Derek from MPMD has done a YouTube video about supposed cross-reactivity of "some unknown estrogen" produced by EQ.
My conclusion is that he's pretty unreliable and his content is nothing more than entertaining.
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