Filtering finished oils

[Sampei]

apologies, i meant 33mm 0.22um. will this work without a caulk gun?

the issue is not if the filter works with a caulking gun or not lol
Any filter works without a caulking gun, it will not work if you use a 20ml syringe without a caulking gun. the syringe size is the issue, you will not be able to push the oil if you use a big barrel. you need a small barrel, so max 5ml. with castor oil better 3ml, unless you have a caulking gun.

 

[Ghoul]

There are

Does it make sense to filter also peptides/hgh due to impurities etc? Can they maybe get damaged while filtering?

Yes they should be filtered with a .22um 13mm PES filter.

Filtering doesn't "damage" peptides, but once certain impurities are removed they can "regrow" after filtration, so it's best to do this as close to the time of administration as possible.

A large gauge, 20g or larger, needle on the outlet of the filter should be used.

 

[bigboy420]

the issue is not if the filter works with a caulking gun or not lol
Any filter works without a caulking gun, it will not work if you use a 20ml syringe without a caulking gun. the syringe size is the issue, you will not be able to push the oil if you use a big barrel. you need a small barrel, so max 5ml. with castor oil better 3ml, unless you have a caulking gun.

Thats where i f****ed up. I was sweating like a maniac trying to make it work.

Forarm got bigger tho

 

[Sampei]

There are

Yes they should be filtered with a .22um 13mm PES filter.

Filtering doesn't "damage" peptides, but once certain impurities are removed they can "regrow" after filtration, so it's best to do this as close to the time of administration as possible.

A large gauge, 20g or larger, needle on the outlet of the filter should be used.

why the larger needle, because of pressure? I can't puncture a cartridge with a 20g needle, it will murder it xD

 

[bigMoJo]

Thats where i f****ed up. I was sweating like a maniac trying to make it work.

Forarm got bigger tho

Lol. Yeah bro... now you know.
For me, even filtering water based peptides is a pain... I have to keep my thumb from slipping off the syringe and it gets tired.

@Ghoul and @Sampei the Caulking Gun should be Standard Issue if anyone is filtering oils, just to avoid the muscle cramps, exhaustion and DOMS after filtering

 

[Ghoul]

why the larger needle, because of pressure? I can't puncture a cartridge with a 20g needle, it will murder it xD

So after spending 6 hours reading the most esoteric papers imaginable about peptide manufacturing, lol, I got my answer, because the pharma manufacturers wanted the answer, as to whether filtering (or other steps) in peptide production, damaged peptides.

TLDR: Lots of things damage peptides, and by "damage" we mean deforming them from their shape so badly they don't "snap back", so they no longer work properly, cause them to oxidize, or literally rip them to pieces.

While they found lots of damaged peptides after the .22um filtration manufacturing step, it wasn't the filter doing the damage.

After filtration, the peptides were "softened up" but intact.

On the other side of the filter, they'd be pushed through a metal needle like outlet. Peptides were getting caught on the metal walls of the tube, and torn apart. At a microscopic scale, those walls are not smooth.

By increasing the diameter of the needle, lining with ptfe, lowing the pressure, they prevented this "sheer stress" damage from occurring during the filtration step.

Like so many peptide damaging factors that are largely invisible to us, we can only make generalizations, but we now know less force moving through a metal needle is preferable to the greater force that's caused by a narrower diameter.
.

 

[readalot]

So after spending 6 hours reading the most esoteric papers imaginable about peptide manufacturing, lol, I got my answer, because the manufacturers wanted the answer, as to whether filtering (or other steps) in peptide production, damaged peptides.

TLDR: Lots of things damage peptides, and by "damage" we mean deforming them from their shape so badly they don't "snap back", so they no longer work properly, cause them to oxidize, or literally rip them to pieces.

While they found lots of damaged peptides after the .22um filtration manufacturing step, it wasn't the filter doing the damage.

After filtration, the peptides were "softened up" but intact.

On the other side of the filter, they'd be pushed through a metal needle like outlet. Peptides were getting caught on the metal walls of the tube, and torn apart. At a microscopic scale, those walls are not smooth.

By increasing the diameter of the needle, lining with ptfe, lowing the pressure, they prevented this "sheer stress" damage from occurring during the filtration step.

Like so many peptide damaging factors that are largely invisible to us, we can only make generalizations, but we now know less force moving through a metal needle is preferable to the greater force that's caused by a narrower diameter.
.

Minimize shear stress. Big needle diameter.

Shear stress - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If you want less force for a given volumetric flow rate, smaller syringe diameter.

 

[Sampei]

So after spending 6 hours reading the most esoteric papers imaginable about peptide manufacturing, lol, I got my answer, because the pharma manufacturers wanted the answer, as to whether filtering (or other steps) in peptide production, damaged peptides.

TLDR: Lots of things damage peptides, and by "damage" we mean deforming them from their shape so badly they don't "snap back", so they no longer work properly, cause them to oxidize, or literally rip them to pieces.

While they found lots of damaged peptides after the .22um filtration manufacturing step, it wasn't the filter doing the damage.

After filtration, the peptides were "softened up" but intact.

On the other side of the filter, they'd be pushed through a metal needle like outlet. Peptides were getting caught on the metal walls of the tube, and torn apart. At a microscopic scale, those walls are not smooth.

By increasing the diameter of the needle, lining with ptfe, lowing the pressure, they prevented this "sheer stress" damage from occurring during the filtration step.

Like so many peptide damaging factors that are largely invisible to us, we can only make generalizations, but we now know less force moving through a metal needle is preferable to the greater force that's caused by a narrower diameter.
.

Yeah so filtering the peptides with a 25G is worse then not filtering isn't it?

 

[Ghoul]

Yeah so filtering the peptides with a 25G is worse then not filtering isn't it?

If you were certain your peptide was 100% free of aggregates, bacteria, undissolved excipients, other contaminants from manufacturing, and your vial was also completely free of contaminants, yes.

But of course that's never the case, What comes out of the filtration process will be free of those things.

What makes it "less than perfect" is that if some very tiny proportion of peptides are damaged (never a large amount even in the high stress manufacturing environment, under 1%), those can act as "seeds" for future aggregate formation.

That's why ideally one would filter, removing all the existing large aggregates, other crap that contributes to aggregate formation, bacterial contamination, and the plain old particulates of glass etc you don't want to inject, and then use as soon after filtration as possible, because more aggregates form slowly over time from remaining damaged peptides (fragments etc), drops of silicone from the syringes, wrong ph, physical agitation, air bubbles, etc.

Pharma always does this filtration step prior to packaging a peptide. It's never viewed as "doing more harm than good".

 

[Sampei]

If you were certain your peptide was 100% free of aggregates, bacteria, undissolved excipients, other contaminants from manufacturing, and your vial was also completely free of contaminants, yes.

But of course that's never the case, What comes out of the filtration process will be free of those things.

What makes it "less than perfect" is that if some very tiny proportion of peptides are damaged (never a large amount even in the high stress manufacturing environment, under 1%), those can act as "seeds" for future aggregate formation.

That's why ideally one would filter, removing all the existing large aggregates, other crap that contributes to aggregate formation, bacterial contamination, and the plain old particulates of glass etc you don't want to inject, and then use as soon after filtration as possible, because more aggregates form slowly over time from remaining damaged peptides (fragments etc), drops of silicone from the syringes, wrong ph, physical agitation, air bubbles, etc.

Pharma always does this filtration step prior to packaging a peptide. It's never viewed as "doing more harm than good".


No. Removing protein aggregates (and other particulates line

I'll check what's the biggest needle I can puncture the pen cartridge without murdering the microstopper
I'm all for filtering but I won't stop using my pen cartridges xD so need to find a compromise.

 

[Ghoul]

I'll check what's the biggest needle I can puncture the pen cartridge without murdering the microstopper
I'm all for filtering but I won't stop using my pen cartridges xD so need to find a compromise.

I realize this all sounds obsessive and potentially endless, but it's just about limiting the factors in our control, within reason.

We all know light damages peptides. Does that mean we reconstitute and pin them in the dark using night vision goggles? No. But most sensible users will protect them from unnecessary exposure.

This is similar. Yes the insulin syringe ultimately used to inject will be narrow, but why expose the peptides to unnecessary damage when it's easily avoidable, by using a larger gauge needle to transfer them from one container to another.

 

[UberLOL]

@Ghoul

Would something like this, designed for recreational drugs, work for filtering peptides/hgh/finished oils, or even somewhat help? 1st one is .22um but PP, the second one doesn't say material composition.

The Sterifilt PLUS (removes bacteria!)

The Sterifilt PLUS (removes bacteria!) . Sterifilt PLUS is the ultimate addition to the Sterifilt range: a filter that rapidly and effectivel...

www.exchangesupplies.org

1ml fixed needle Vernacare 'Filter Syringe

1ml fixed needle Vernacare 'Filter Syringe. 1ml fixed needle insulin type syringe, manufactured for Frontier Medical with a filter in the needle...

www.exchangesupplies.org

Thanks

 

[Sampei]

@Ghoul

Would something like this, designed for recreational drugs, work for filtering peptides/hgh/finished oils, or even somewhat help? 1st one is .22um but PP, the second one doesn't say material composition.

The Sterifilt PLUS (removes bacteria!)

The Sterifilt PLUS (removes bacteria!) . Sterifilt PLUS is the ultimate addition to the Sterifilt range: a filter that rapidly and effectivel...

www.exchangesupplies.org

1ml fixed needle Vernacare 'Filter Syringe

1ml fixed needle Vernacare 'Filter Syringe. 1ml fixed needle insulin type syringe, manufactured for Frontier Medical with a filter in the needle...

www.exchangesupplies.org

Thanks

No

 

[Photon]

@Ghoul

Would something like this, designed for recreational drugs, work for filtering peptides/hgh/finished oils, or even somewhat help? 1st one is .22um but PP, the second one doesn't say material composition.

The Sterifilt PLUS (removes bacteria!)

The Sterifilt PLUS (removes bacteria!) . Sterifilt PLUS is the ultimate addition to the Sterifilt range: a filter that rapidly and effectivel...

www.exchangesupplies.org

1ml fixed needle Vernacare 'Filter Syringe

1ml fixed needle Vernacare 'Filter Syringe. 1ml fixed needle insulin type syringe, manufactured for Frontier Medical with a filter in the needle...

www.exchangesupplies.org

Thanks

Ive never seen the first one before..its a .22um filter that allows u to attach to an insulin syringe when drawing... But..have u seen how it works? How are you going to even attach that to the vial? You need to pour the oil into a cup then use this filter to draw from it...

 

[LGOP528]

So after spending 6 hours reading the most esoteric papers imaginable about peptide manufacturing, lol, I got my answer, because the pharma manufacturers wanted the answer, as to whether filtering (or other steps) in peptide production, damaged peptides.

TLDR: Lots of things damage peptides, and by "damage" we mean deforming them from their shape so badly they don't "snap back", so they no longer work properly, cause them to oxidize, or literally rip them to pieces.

While they found lots of damaged peptides after the .22um filtration manufacturing step, it wasn't the filter doing the damage.

After filtration, the peptides were "softened up" but intact.

On the other side of the filter, they'd be pushed through a metal needle like outlet. Peptides were getting caught on the metal walls of the tube, and torn apart. At a microscopic scale, those walls are not smooth.

By increasing the diameter of the needle, lining with ptfe, lowing the pressure, they prevented this "sheer stress" damage from occurring during the filtration step.

Like so many peptide damaging factors that are largely invisible to us, we can only make generalizations, but we now know less force moving through a metal needle is preferable to the greater force that's caused by a narrower diameter.
.

What I am about to say is from an engineering and fluid dynamics perspective. I don’t want to pretend I have any knowledge on this topic beyond that.

You are describing what happens on a microscopic level for flow through a pipe. Specificity the types of flow and boundary conditions at the wall. The below image is the 2D velocity profiles (velocity gradient) with 2 types of boundary conditions.


The shear stress is proportional to the velocity gradient. Think of each of those arrows as a slab of fluid moving at different speeds. There is a friction force between each layer that is one type of shear stress.

You can have different types of flow through a pipe. Laminar flow or turbulent flow. Turbulent flow will causes a lot of shear stress and energy loss. You can do quick calculations to find the reynolds number for your situation to see what type of flow you have.


But I would have to look up flow through a porous material, not sure how the filter comes into play.

All of that was to say that the velocity matters. lol
You could go to a larger needle and increase the velocity and still have the same problem. You could keep the smaller needle and decrease the velocity and maybe have better success but I would imagine the larger needle with higher velocity is preferred for manufacturing reasons.

Im not familiar with the problem, I just like this shit.

 

[Ghoul]

What I am about to say is from an engineering and fluid dynamics perspective. I don’t want to pretend I have any knowledge on this topic beyond that.

You are describing what happens on a microscopic level for flow through a pipe. Specificity the types of flow and boundary conditions at the wall. The below image is the 2D velocity profiles (velocity gradient) with 2 types of boundary conditions.
View attachment 316393

The shear stress is proportional to the velocity gradient. Think of each of those arrows as a slab of fluid moving at different speeds. There is a friction force between each layer that is one type of shear stress.

You can have different types of flow through a pipe. Laminar flow or turbulent flow. Turbulent flow will causes a lot of shear stress and energy loss. You can do quick calculations to find the reynolds number for your situation to see what type of flow you have.


But I would have to look up flow through a porous material, not sure how the filter comes into play.

All of that was to say that the velocity matters. lol
You could go to a larger needle and increase the velocity and still have the same problem. You could keep the smaller needle and decrease the velocity and maybe have better success but I would imagine the larger needle with higher velocity is preferred for manufacturing reasons.

Im not familiar with the problem, I just like this shit.

I could feel the difference in resistance between a 27g and 20g needle on the outlet of a 13mm .22um syringe filter. I would imagine though as needle diameter increases the filter becomes the limiting factor and at some point a larger needle (or no needle) doesn't lower resistance any further, so velocity drops within the larger needle. I have 16g on the way. and I'll see if I can feel any difference between that, 20g, and no needle on the filter.

Or just use a luer coupler between the filter outlet and the syringe being filled.

 

[LGOP528]

I could feel the difference in resistance between a 27g and 20g needle on the outlet of a 13mm .22um syringe filter. I would imagine though as needle diameter increases the filter becomes the limiting factor and at some point a larger needle (or no needle) doesn't lower resistance any further, so velocity drops within the larger needle. I have 16g on the way. and I'll see if I can feel any difference between that, 20g, and no needle on the filter.

Or just use a luer coupler between the filter outlet and the syringe being filled.

View attachment 316400

Yes, a large enough needle that there is no resistance in the needle, would change the type of flow completely.

You have me curious about flow through a porous media. I am going to have to read up on it.

 

[Sampei]

I could feel the difference in resistance between a 27g and 20g needle on the outlet of a 13mm .22um syringe filter. I would imagine though as needle diameter increases the filter becomes the limiting factor and at some point a larger needle (or no needle) doesn't lower resistance any further, so velocity drops within the larger needle. I have 16g on the way. and I'll see if I can feel any difference between that, 20g, and no needle on the filter.

Or just use a luer coupler between the filter outlet and the syringe being filled.

View attachment 316400

Same, yesterday I was filtering some oils I brewed, I used first a 25G and was slow as fuck, I started using a 21G and it was flowing much faster so even so the biggest pressure is in the filter the outflow can still determine how much you have to press that damn syringe to filter it quicker (this is on oils tho not peptides but the principle is the same)

 

[Ghoul]

Yes, a large enough needle that there is no resistance in the needle, would change the type of flow completely.

You have me curious about flow through a porous media. I am going to have to read up on it.

By the way, using that coupler method could arguably be said to be superior to the way protein drugs are handled by medical professionals now.

Employing what's been proposed as the ideal standard of "bedside filtration", vs filling a syringe by poking a vial with a needle. Just barbaric by comparison lol.

Would be crazy to see us exceeding current standards in this regard. Let them study OUR techniques to improve safety and efficacy, haha.

"How Bodybuilders Are Leading The Way to Reduced Immunogenicity"

 

[LGOP528]

Same, yesterday I was filtering some oils I brewed, I used first a 25G and was slow as fuck, I started using a 21G and it was flowing much faster so even so the biggest pressure is in the filter the outflow can still determine how much you have to press that damn syringe to filter it quicker (this is on oils tho not peptides but the principle is the same)

I use a 22gauge and filter around 60c to help. I did the same as everyone else, filtered by hand one time. Now the caulking gun is the only way.