First Cycle Log - Marathon Runner

[Leg_locker]

Why did you choose to go with winstol over other more classic "endurance" orals like Tbol? Are you worried about the joint pain associated with it?
Also any plans on trying cardarine if you haven't

 

[Andi & Helga]

fascinating. Your experience with test for endurance is very different from mine.
I'm a cyclist (also lift), and going on trt actually lowered my Vo2max, increased resting heart rate etc...
Upping the dose makes it all much worse.

What dosages have you tried? Was your testosterone total too low before? Strength training at the same time can also contribute to faster weight gain, and not just in the lower body.

 

[amorgan90]

@Leg_locker I mentioned a bit in a previous comment but I first got the idea from watching the documentary Icarus where Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov mentioned that he used the injectable version during his sub-elite running days. I did a bit more research after that and found dozens of olympic endurance athletes including middle distance and marathon runners who had tested positive for it during competition. I've heard the injectable version has terrible pip and is still toxic to the liver so I got some oral winny. I'm not sure I saw as many mentions of tbol & endurance.

I'm taking it with TUDCA and citrus bergamot to help protect my liver and blood lipids and will be adding NAC soon too. As for the joint pain, I'm keeping a close watch on that and would probably stop using it if anything comes up that hinders my performance. So far so good. I'll only be running it for 3-4 weeks.

I read up a bit on cardarine but the associated cancer risk turned me off to it. It seems like its minor and might only happen with larger doses but I kind of stopped looking into it after that. Two compounds is enough for me right now, especially for a first cycle. Over the next few years I might also check out EPO but it still scares me a bit. I also don't like the idea of having to pay for more blood work in order to safely use it. In the future, I might like to try a cycle like the Lance Armstrong stack used in Icarus: HGH, TRT level test and EPO.

 

[demon]

Interesting. Do you have a group of running friends in your circle? If so, do they mention what PEDS work for them?

I'm an avid runner myself, typically averaging 40mpw. I'm older, I don't have the speed but enjoy longer distances at a steady pace. For me I've found EQ, low dose test and hgh help me the most with recovery. Orals don't give me debilitating pumps, so I like to alternate winstrol and anavar. Never really tried tbol. I'm also prescribed Armour (along with testosterone). I really enjoy Armodafinil and modafinil. I typical take a half a tab 3 times a week and it really gives me focus. I've tried a lot of different PEDS but I find what I listed above works the best for me. Forgot to mention cardarine at 10mg makes a huge difference for me as well. I typically dose it around my longer runs.

Nice log and looking forward to the updates.

 

[amorgan90]

@demon I train solo so no running friends to discuss this with unfortunately. Glad I've got this forum at least.

 

[amorgan90]

UPDATE (One week out from race day):

I started experiencing my first winstrol side effects a little over a week ago. At first I thought it was just soreness from a deadlifting workout but my left hip and the back of my pelvis has been feeling sore, creaky and kind of weak. It hasn't affected me too much but this feels like the type of thing that could cause me some pain or tighten up late into the race. So I decided to skip my 10km time trial. On Thanksgiving morning I decided to do a "dress rehearsal" workout to test it: 11 miles total with 7 miles at marathon pace.

The workout felt easy and smooth and there was only a tiny bit of discomfort from the back of my hip. The discomfort doesn't seem to go away but if I get into a rhythm, I forget its there. Thankfully, it didn't seem to flare up at any point in the workout but who knows what could happen 20 miles into the race.

To give my body extra rest, I dropped the winny after that workout. Its been a few days but the feeling is still there. I feel it most when getting up in the morning and it doesn't seem to respond to stretching but a couple miles into my easy runs it becomes less noticeable. I plan on restarting the winny a couple days before the marathon and through race day. Now that I've felt a few weeks on it I can say that it definitely does add to my runs. It has increased my libido, given me more drive and aggression during workouts, and makes my legs feel more powerful. I've noticed that my easy pace runs have gotten a little bit faster than normal without me even trying. I've done a couple long runs and workouts on it now and I feel very strong and determined at faster paces. Literally every part of my body feels primed and ready for the race aside from the hip thing. There is a noticeable bounce back in my stride and I would usually be a little tired at this point in my taper.

However now that I've been off for a few days I've noticed my blood pressure and resting heart rate during sleep has gone down. For the first two days off, I didn't have raging morning wood for the first time during this cycle. If it wasn't for the hip/pelvis discomfort I really wouldn't have anything to complain about performance wise. I'm interested to look into tbol like @Leg_locker mentioned. It was developed for performance/endurance and seems to have much milder side effects.

With a week until race day, I'm feeling very confident. My plan is to stick by the 2:50 pace group for the first half of the race then let loose. I don't want to have a single mile split over 6:30. Based on my workout the other week with 17 miles at 6:14 min/mile average, I think finishing the race anywhere between 2:46-2:48 is realistic. But I'll be happy just finishing under 2:50. I think there is a small chance the hip could be a problem but I won't be stopping/slowing down unless it somehow turns into excruciating and sharp pain. I like my chances.

 

[Yar]

UPDATE (One week out from race day):

I started experiencing my first winstrol side effects a little over a week ago. At first I thought it was just soreness from a deadlifting workout but my left hip and the back of my pelvis has been feeling sore, creaky and kind of weak. It hasn't affected me too much but this feels like the type of thing that could cause me some pain or tighten up late into the race. So I decided to skip my 10km time trial. On Thanksgiving morning I decided to do a "dress rehearsal" workout to test it: 11 miles total with 7 miles at marathon pace.

The workout felt easy and smooth and there was only a tiny bit of discomfort from the back of my hip. The discomfort doesn't seem to go away but if I get into a rhythm, I forget its there. Thankfully, it didn't seem to flare up at any point in the workout but who knows what could happen 20 miles into the race.

To give my body extra rest, I dropped the winny after that workout. Its been a few days but the feeling is still there. I feel it most when getting up in the morning and it doesn't seem to respond to stretching but a couple miles into my easy runs it becomes less noticeable. I plan on restarting the winny a couple days before the marathon and through race day. Now that I've felt a few weeks on it I can say that it definitely does add to my runs. It has increased my libido, given me more drive and aggression during workouts, and makes my legs feel more powerful. I've noticed that my easy pace runs have gotten a little bit faster than normal without me even trying. I've done a couple long runs and workouts on it now and I feel very strong and determined at faster paces. Literally every part of my body feels primed and ready for the race aside from the hip thing. There is a noticeable bounce back in my stride and I would usually be a little tired at this point in my taper.

However now that I've been off for a few days I've noticed my blood pressure and resting heart rate during sleep has gone down. For the first two days off, I didn't have raging morning wood for the first time during this cycle. If it wasn't for the hip/pelvis discomfort I really wouldn't have anything to complain about performance wise. I'm interested to look into tbol like @Leg_locker mentioned. It was developed for performance/endurance and seems to have much milder side effects.

With a week until race day, I'm feeling very confident. My plan is to stick by the 2:50 pace group for the first half of the race then let loose. I don't want to have a single mile split over 6:30. Based on my workout the other week with 17 miles at 6:14 min/mile average, I think finishing the race anywhere between 2:46-2:48 is realistic. But I'll be happy just finishing under 2:50. I think there is a small chance the hip could be a problem but I won't be stopping/slowing down unless it somehow turns into excruciating and sharp pain. I like my chances.

I think it will be more effective in your case than using Stanazolol. For it has a very negative effect on the joints and ligaments.

 

[amorgan90]

RACE DAY UPDATE (2:47 marathon):

Taper: I introduced winstrol back into the cycle on Friday night, 10 mg at night and 10mg in the morning. Legs were feeling very strong and the taper kind of felt unnecessary. My legs were aching to race as soon as I reduced mileage.

Pre-Race:

Today started off on a terrible note. I carb loaded for dinner then went to bed at 8:30pm to get up at 4:30am before the race. I ended up waking up at 12am and couldn't get back to sleep. I'm not sure if I ended up actually falling asleep again but it felt like I was just lying in bed until 4am. I was worried my race would be ruined. I couldn't have gotten more than 4 hours of sleep.

I got out of bed before my alarm and had some oatmeal and water chased with 20mg of winstrol, 150mg of Armodafinil, and 10mg of cialis. I usually take less armo but I felt like I had to compensate for the severe lack of sleep.

The armodafinil and winstrol hit leaving me feeling jittery and anxious but more awake at least. I felt like shit. I've never had such bad sleep and performed well in any workout so I kinda assumed I'd be fucked. My mind was full of doubt. When I got to the race, I did 1 mile of jogging back and forth and pissed 4 times (thanks armodafinil). I lined up with the sub 2:50 pace group and they all looked way skinnier than me. In the lead up to the race, I was weighing over 180lbs consistently, up from the low 170s before my cycle.

The weather was cold and rainy. Luckily the rain stopped just in time for the start of the race.

Race:

When the singing of the star spangled banner started, I got some much needed adrenaline and started to feel good and even a little cocky. I took off in the first mile at 6:18 minutes/mile which was way faster than my plan of sticking between 6:25-6:30 for the first 10km like I had planned. The course was rolling hills for the first 10km and I felt decent.

Around mile 7, my legs started to feel a little heavy on the uphills. At that point, I was doubting myself hard. If I was feeling that way already, what would mile 20 feel like?? I was running about 6:35 on the uphills but gaining momentum and running 6:15 on the downhills. The course was net negative elevation so the downhills were longer than the uphills.

The leg heaviness persisted through the half marathon point and the hip/lower back discomfort I'd been feeling since starting the winstrol was there as well. My hip hurt during a few downhills because I was pounding down with force. The pounding was getting to me and I started to have day dreams of myself dropping out of the race and sitting back at the hotel room depressed.

But then during mile 16, something clicked. I got a much needed second wind and the heaviness in my legs + soreness in my hip disappeared. I could feel the endorphins buzzing up my spine and holding 6:15 - 6:20 felt effortless. The tightness in my lower back was still there but it didn't affect anything. I started to feel like a freight train just hurtling past people left and right.

The entire race, my heart rate was exactly where I hoped it would be. Until mile 16, I just didn't think my legs would last. But from mile 16 - mile 22, I felt like an absolute animal. It honestly kind of came out of nowhere and the doubt disappeared. I was bouncing along around 6:15 pace feeling strong, confident and aggressive.

In my last marathon 10 months ago when I was still natty, I hit a wall during the last 3 miles where my quads felt like rocks and keeping the pace got way harder. I expected the same thing here and it came on like clockwork. Only this time, my heart rate was lower and didn't max out as high as it did back then despite me now running a much faster pace. I still felt the surge of energy but my legs were beginning to really fatigue. I had taken a total of four gels, one at mile 6, 13, 16, and 20. I took water at nearly every aid station.

I held onto the same pace and started speeding up when I hit mile 24. Mile 25 ended up being my fastest mile at 6:05. At this point I was passing a bunch of people and runners were dropping out left and right. People were grabbing at their quads, getting jello legs/losing control, and one guy was even on his back unconscious at the 26 mile marker. As soon as I saw the big crowd I sprinted to the finish line as they called my name on the loud speaker. According to the clock, I had broken 2 hours and 48 minutes.

My GPS time was about 2:46:20 and my official race time was a few milliseconds above 2:47. My legs were completely dead but I was absolutely fired up. I grabbed my medal and a banana and 50 feet later my quads began cramping and locking up with every step. Pretty sure I gave it all I had. Right now, I can barely walk. It was an 11 minute improvement on my time just 10 months ago.

Reflections:

I'm super happy that the disastrous night of sleep didn't ruin this race for me and I'm honestly surprised how strong my body felt in the second half of this race. There is no question that the 250mg of Test C and low dose winny gave me a massive edge. Although there was some joint discomfort in training and the beginning of this race, it seemed to disappear and thankfully didn't affect my race. I ran the second half of this race faster than the first and for a good 10 mile stretch, I felt like a man possessed. It was kind of like something primal woke up in me at mile 16 and my body just took over despite the doubts in my mind.

I guess I feel comfortable saying that I liked the Winny. Its unclear how much it added vs the Test alone but I definitely felt a burst of extra energy and aggression on the days I took it preworkout. Not sure how much it actually helped the performance though, tough to say. But definitely can't say it fucked everything up via joint issues which was my worry before. I'll probably run it again in the future since I still have a bunch left, but thats after I see what my blood test looks like next week. If it didn't totally trash my cholesterol and liver values then I think I'd do some more 4 week cycles of it for races in the future.

What's Next?

Moving forward I'm going to take a few days to a week off running and start cutting weight before my next marathon training block for Boston in April. It was pretty crazy that I could run this time at 180lbs+ but if I could get down to 155-165lbs (I'm 5'10") while maintaining leg strength, I think it could massively help my times in the future. I'll also probably experiment with Tbol as a secondary compound at some point and I will be dialing down my Test to 180mg-200mg until I start my next training block.

I'm really happy and grateful for how things turned out today. Despite the 3-4 hours of sleep, massive doubts, rain and joint discomfort, I felt like a machine out there today and executed exactly what I set out to do. 250mg Test & low dose winstrol was officially a successful endurance experiment.

 

[Yar]

My congratulations on the result. You are a cool man. Who runs the marathon is all unrealistically cool.
From sleep, it seems to me that you ate a lot of carbohydrates and therefore did not sleep well.
Perhaps you need to eat carbohydrates during the day and not much at all in the evening.

 

[guiltyfile3]

I posted about a cycle I was about to start. Someone directed me to your post. This is quality content man.

I’m not a typical endurance runner but I’m training for a 21k. Also training for SWAT school, which consists of a lot of endurance running with gear. I was originally planning 500mg/week of test, 600mg/wk of EQ, with four weeks of 50mg/day Tbol.

Some others posted about 500mg test not being necessary for what I’m training. While some additional muscle mass and aesthetics would be cool, it’s not my primary concern.

After reading your post, I was thinking of 250-300 mg/wk of test and also lowering the EQ. Overall do you think that still may be too high of a dose? I figured with having to run 7 miles with gear on might benefit some additional muscle mass/strength gain.

 

[Millard]

RACE DAY UPDATE (2:47 marathon)

That's amazing!

Are you still running in Boston? How's the training?

 

[amorgan90]

@Millard Thanks! This current training block has been even better so far.

After cruising for a month, I started another training block with 250mg Test C but only for 12 weeks since thats all the time I had until Boston. This time around I've opted for a plan that goes up to 105 miles a week and am currently in the peak of training now.

This week was my first 105mi week of the plan (week 6) and until now I've been focused mostly on weight loss. I've been intermittent fasting and usually only having salad for dinner but most days still hang around 3000 calories because I'm burning so much. I'm down to 163lbs from the 182lbs I was at in December.

This is my first time cutting on exogenous test and its amazing. Some days I forget I'm even dieting. So far in the plan, I've hit new PRs in the 10km (34:58 ~ 5:38/mi) and half marathon (1:18:50 ~ 6:00/mi). The half marathon was actually during a marathon paced long run where I did 15mi at 5:55-6:05 per mile after 5 mi of warm up (20 total).

My heart rate has been really strong I'm honestly surprised at how much progress I've made in a short time. Today was actually my last marathon paced long run of the training block. I did 13mi at race pace with 5 for warm up (18 total), this time at a slightly more realistic marathon pace of 6:00-6:10 per mile. I think I'm going to aim for 6:10-6:15/mi at Boston but my fitness is telling me I could probably do better.

Right now is actually the first time since I started pinning that my legs have started to get tired. I think the 200-500 calories daily deficit is probably the main reason, so I'm going to eat closer to maintenance for the rest of the plan. I've also been eating at a surplus on days before big workouts so I can perform.

The biggest difference this time around is that I'm only dosing winny on days before/on/after I'm simulating race pace or doing speedwork (like the 10km time trial day). Hopefully that way I can minimize sides and also get a performance & recovery boost for the days I really need it.

On my last post cycle blood work, everything looked good except slightly elevated LDL. My HDL was basically the same as baseline and my total cholesterol was fine. My liver values were actually better than my pre-cycle bloodwork which I thought was interesting. Probably from TUDCA on cycle and NAC everyday.

Hard work for this training block is basically finished, will update after the race in April where I hope to finish somewhere between 2:41-2:45.

 

[amorgan90]

I posted about a cycle I was about to start. Someone directed me to your post. This is quality content man.

I’m not a typical endurance runner but I’m training for a 21k. Also training for SWAT school, which consists of a lot of endurance running with gear. I was originally planning 500mg/week of test, 600mg/wk of EQ, with four weeks of 50mg/day Tbol.

Some others posted about 500mg test not being necessary for what I’m training. While some additional muscle mass and aesthetics would be cool, it’s not my primary concern.

After reading your post, I was thinking of 250-300 mg/wk of test and also lowering the EQ. Overall do you think that still may be too high of a dose? I figured with having to run 7 miles with gear on might benefit some additional muscle mass/strength gain.

Hey, sorry for the late reply, you probably already started your cycle by now. Honestly, I'm probably not the right person to ask since our goals are different. I'm currently not worried about strength at all and am very new to Test and its derivatives.

For endurance though, I'd imagine test only is more than enough. There are really no shortcuts when it comes to aerobic fitness, just gotta put in the miles everyday. Test obviously makes that a lot easier to recover from. Idk about EQ but I always hear people saying its good for cardio. With that much gear, it would probably be a good idea to aim for up to 50 miles a week from both a harm reduction standpoint and to build fitness for a 21k. On top of gym time it can be a big time commitment though.

The training intensity depends on your goals. If you just want to finish the 21k at a decent pace, you just need to get your miles in and don't need to worry about speedwork. Building an aerobic base comes before everything. If you want to run fast, then its all about how much you're willing to sacrifice to do that. You'd probably have to shed some weight if you're big and run 6-7 days a week aiming for a zone 2 heart rate + 1 day of speed work.

As far as dosages go, I don't think you'd probably get diminishing returns over 2000 ng/dl. I'm currently around 3000 ng/dl and feeling great but I doubt I even need to be this high since I'm not focused on bodybuilding. The pro runners I've heard of that have popped for Test all seem to be at TRT levels or a little above. Some just take orals on race day and the rest opt for EPO. Running super high mileage is said to suppress natural test production so even TRT levels for pro runners is a huge advantage.

I bet you wouldn't need half a gram of test for what you're doing especially if you wanna throw other compounds on top. But then again, I'm just a runner and not a body builder so I have a totally different perspective. I also don't know how much test you need for a healthy ratio with other compounds. We're all here because this shit is fun and being at supraphysiologic doses of test feels great so its entirely up to what you think makes sense for your goals.

 

[demon]

@Millard Thanks! This current training block has been even better so far.

After cruising for a month, I started another training block with 250mg Test C but only for 12 weeks since thats all the time I had until Boston. This time around I've opted for a plan that goes up to 105 miles a week and am currently in the peak of training now.

This week was my first 105mi week of the plan (week 6) and until now I've been focused mostly on weight loss. I've been intermittent fasting and usually only having salad for dinner but most days still hang around 3000 calories because I'm burning so much. I'm down to 163lbs from the 182lbs I was at in December.

This is my first time cutting on exogenous test and its amazing. Some days I forget I'm even dieting. So far in the plan, I've hit new PRs in the 10km (34:58 ~ 5:38/mi) and half marathon (1:18:50 ~ 6:00/mi). The half marathon was actually during a marathon paced long run where I did 15mi at 5:55-6:05 per mile after 5 mi of warm up (20 total).

My heart rate has been really strong I'm honestly surprised at how much progress I've made in a short time. Today was actually my last marathon paced long run of the training block. I did 13mi at race pace with 5 for warm up (18 total), this time at a slightly more realistic marathon pace of 6:00-6:10 per mile. I think I'm going to aim for 6:10-6:15/mi at Boston but my fitness is telling me I could probably do better.

Right now is actually the first time since I started pinning that my legs have started to get tired. I think the 200-500 calories daily deficit is probably the main reason, so I'm going to eat closer to maintenance for the rest of the plan. I've also been eating at a surplus on days before big workouts so I can perform.

The biggest difference this time around is that I'm only dosing winny on days before/on/after I'm simulating race pace or doing speedwork (like the 10km time trial day). Hopefully that way I can minimize sides and also get a performance & recovery boost for the days I really need it.

On my last post cycle blood work, everything looked good except slightly elevated LDL. My HDL was basically the same as baseline and my total cholesterol was fine. My liver values were actually better than my pre-cycle bloodwork which I thought was interesting. Probably from TUDCA on cycle and NAC everyday.

Hard work for this training block is basically finished, will update after the race in April where I hope to finish somewhere between 2:41-2:45.

wow-your killing it man! What are you using for peds at the moment? test and winny on training days?

 

[amorgan90]

wow-your killing it man! What are you using for peds at the moment? test and winny on training days?

Thanks! Yeah, just 250mg Test per week pinned EOD and winny on days where I'm doing a time trial or marathon paced long run which is only about 4x over this 6 week plan. Trying to be cautious about the winny use to hopefully minimize its detrimental effects on blood lipids.

 

[Leg_locker]

Glad to see you're still around and training/experimenting! I'm still curious if you plan on using Tbol after You're done pulsing Winny?

 

[Millard]

Hard work for this training block is basically finished, will update after the race in April where I hope to finish somewhere between 2:41-2:45.

Wow! I really enjoy hearing this type of progress.

That's a big drop in bodyweight since November, right? How fast is too fast?

All things being equal, that alone should give considerable advantage towards your Boston goal. With training going so well, I'm eager to do see how well you do!

Again, thanks for sharing. You bring a different perspective and set of goals to a forum where PED use is predominantly for maximizing strength and size. It is really appreciated.

The information of PED information in other sports is lacking. There are many reasons but it seems only bodybuilders have been permitted/encouraged to have open discussions on public forums.

 

[I6JQdr06]

Great read @amorgan90. Thank you. I’d really like to see more performance oriented content on here.

@Millard could I suggest another forum in the sports specific subsection for non endurance-based sports? Like sprinting, jumping, throwing, climbing, etc. I’m specifically interested in bouldering but I know that’s very specific.

 

[speedyboi]

This was an awesome post, man. I want to thank you for putting it up. I did have a couple of questions, namely your age.

I am a 32 year old marathoner, ran track in college and I’m currently just trying to beat off father time while I make my final last ditch efforts to accomplish the lifetime dream of an OTQ. I have been a 2:25 guy for about 2 years now (naturally), having made awesome gains simply by increasing volume and adding heavy weight training to my training program. Adding weight training (typical base building lift would be 5x5 squats, 4x3-5 power cleans, 3x8 jumps (split squat, 36” box jumps—standing and seated, frog jumps, standing broad jumps), and then about 20 minutes of core and stability work, mostly single legged, since we do a single legged sport). I average about 90-100 mpw, and usually peak at about 130 mpw during a training block.

So my questions for you are as follows:

1) Do you do weight room work? I am worried that by going the gear route, I might cause myself to gain too much weight (right now I’m already a bigger guy for a subelite, 5’9” 165)

2) I noticed you dropped your mileage, was it the injury concerns (hip stuff) that prompted that or more the blood pressure cholesterol issues?

3) What are the three main pieces of advice you would give a newbie to this world? I am currently on TRT, so I am used to pinning, and am generally willing to experiment, but I don’t have much time left to “fuck around” with different drugs or stacks before the December 5 deadline for the 2024 trials.

 

[Millard]

Good luck, @amorgan90 ! Tell us how it went.