Harm reduction in the Steroid Underground subforum - this is NOT a source forum

[Liska]

You have your own agenda of course but I'm sure you understand the basic approach of harm reduction. It is strange for you to imply MESO is somehow a harm promotion forum.

This is generally the tactic taken by opponents of harm reduction (who take the approach of forbidding or prohibiting drug use).

MESO doesn't go around "forbidding" or prohibiting people from taking unacceptable health risks, legal risks, financial risks, social risks, etc. "You are forbidden from using trenbolone!" "You are forbidden from using DNP!" "You are forbidden from going on a cycle longer than 12 weeks!" "You are forbidden from using AAS if you don't monitor your health!" "You are forbidden from using that source!"

Rather, MESO hopes that the website and forums can provide information that will help visitors manage risk and minimize physical/social/legal/financial harms.

As far as the underground black market, the community's sharing of experiences is vital to minimizing the associated risks and the central component to the forum's harm reduction approach. This should not be trivialized.

With regard to the source cheerleaders, I have a lot to say about that.

MESO supports members leaving positive and negative reviews/feedback/complaints. But really how many posts does it take to leave a positive review? One or two? Maybe 5 max followups if anyone has questions. Anything beyond that suggests other motives and should be questioned.

So yeah, the motivations and agendas of the people leaving the reviews can sometimes be suspect.

I'll unpack more later...

To clarify my post, I believe that the community lacks the tools to protect itself from potential harm in select cases where a business uses an army of (alleged) shill/alt accounts to drown a thread/negative opinions in fake posts and spam to the point where few members have the time/expertise to digest hundreds of pages and/or separate the genuine from manipulation, effectively letting said manipulators continue to profit from harmful practices - and this does ultimately trivialize this forum's approach to harm reduction (as that's what this method is designed to do).

It's a complicated and largely unresolved problem many legal and illegal industries/platforms where reviews and sales are correlated suffer from, whether it's Amazon, Steam,Yelp, Google or DNM's.

 

[Millard]

Alt accounts aren't as big a problem as many suspect. These are usually detected. They try to avoid detection by the use of VPNs, etc. but they inevitably screw up switching back and forth.

What concerns me the most are source customers who join MESO and post exclusively (or almost exclusively) in the source's thread. They regularly announce how great their experience with source. They camp out and bump the source thread discussing various topics that should be discussed in the relevant subforums dedicated to the topics of AAS, training, nutrition, bodybuilding, etc.

Most sources have these type of customers in their threads. They bury relevant info with fluff but mostly they are innocuous.

They become a concern when this "army" goes to bat for the source and attacks/dismisses/minimizes/refutes/etc other members who have a legitimate complaints or are dissatisfied or are warning members about potential harms, etc.

What motivates these type of members? How far would "satisfied" and "happy" customers naturally and organically go to defend their source?

I suspect they are incentivized in some manner. For example:

1) source simply asks satisfied customers to join and share their positive experiences;
2) source offers discounts or free products to reward customers who join and share positive experiences

If my experience moderating forums tells me anything, people will do a lot for free gear.

Sources could recruit reviewers for hire on Fiverr or Freelancer, etc. and pay them to join and pretend to be customers. I think this is less likely because there is no shortage of customers who will do it for free gear.

Having said all of that, I think members should be free to post positive reviews - it is actually encouraged. It just doesn't take more than a few posts to share these positive reviews. If someone is posting daily posts praising a source, with dozens or hundreds of posts in the source thread, then I would be suspicious.

I'm not saying every single one of them has been incentivized. There is a subset of customers who seem to thrive on having "personal" relationships with their drug dealers, who genuinely consider them friends. I can't understand this desire for such intimacy in a relationship that should just be transactional - but there is that.

 

[Rido]

I can't understand this desire for such intimacy in a relationship that should just be transactional - but there is that.

I love hookers and they love me.

 

[Fenrir51]

I love hookers and they love me.

I'll love you for money too sweetie.

 

[Liska]

I suspect they are incentivized in some manner. For example:

1) source simply asks satisfied customers to join and share their positive experiences;
2) source offers discounts or free products to reward customers who join and share positive experiences

I think offering these incentives privately rather than publically would have gotten exposed at some point, especially as customers were publically disincentivized from leaving negative feedback by being stripped off previously promised refunds/reships etc.

There's probably businesses specialized in offering fake review/feedback services that are setup to evade common detection methods as those you described even for boards like this given how extremely lucrative similar services are for social media platforms. I cannot think of any AAS related place online where that amount of new accounts could be coming from organically to post solely in a singular thread, supporting a source with a similar posting style as no place of origin was ever mentioned by any of them iirc.

There is a subset of customers who seem to thrive on having "personal" relationships with their drug dealers, who genuinely consider them friends. I can't understand this desire for such intimacy in a relationship that should just be transactional - but there is that.

You're too boomer to be fully aware of the extent of parasocial online relationships and I advise you to protect this innocence by all means.

 

[FrostHammer]

Alt accounts aren't as big a problem as many suspect. These are usually detected. They try to avoid detection by the use of VPNs, etc. but they inevitably screw up switching back and forth.

What concerns me the most are source customers who join MESO and post exclusively (or almost exclusively) in the source's thread. They regularly announce how great their experience with source. They camp out and bump the source thread discussing various topics that should be discussed in the relevant subforums dedicated to the topics of AAS, training, nutrition, bodybuilding, etc.

Most sources have these type of customers in their threads. They bury relevant info with fluff but mostly they are innocuous.

They become a concern when this "army" goes to bat for the source and attacks/dismisses/minimizes/refutes/etc other members who have a legitimate complaints or are dissatisfied or are warning members about potential harms, etc.

What motivates these type of members? How far would "satisfied" and "happy" customers naturally and organically go to defend their source?

I suspect they are incentivized in some manner. For example:

1) source simply asks satisfied customers to join and share their positive experiences;
2) source offers discounts or free products to reward customers who join and share positive experiences

If my experience moderating forums tells me anything, people will do a lot for free gear.

Sources could recruit reviewers for hire on Fiverr or Freelancer, etc. and pay them to join and pretend to be customers. I think this is less likely because there is no shortage of customers who will do it for free gear.

Having said all of that, I think members should be free to post positive reviews - it is actually encouraged. It just doesn't take more than a few posts to share these positive reviews. If someone is posting daily posts praising a source, with dozens or hundreds of posts in the source thread, then I would be suspicious.

I'm not saying every single one of them has been incentivized. There is a subset of customers who seem to thrive on having "personal" relationships with their drug dealers, who genuinely consider them friends. I can't understand this desire for such intimacy in a relationship that should just be transactional - but there is that.

You’re hilarious! Now take off the tinfoil hat and taper off of your SSRI’s.

You lost business to QSC because they’re prices were so low. Period.

Now you’re concocting the idea that an “army of shill accounts” were put into place to keep them afloat?

They have the best prices around, and yes they fucked a few people over, but the majority of their customers are extremely happy.

This is top tier TDS type paranoia.

 

[Liska]

You’re hilarious! Now take off the tinfoil hat and taper off of your SSRI’s.

You lost business to QSC because they’re prices were so low. Period.

Now you’re concocting the idea that an “army of shill accounts” were put into place to keep them afloat?

They have the best prices around, and yes they fucked a few people over, but the majority of their customers are extremely happy.

This is top tier TDS type paranoia.

Quickly quoting to permanently preserve this blessed beatdown

 

[Rido]

You’re hilarious! Now take off the tinfoil hat and taper off of your SSRI’s.

You lost business to QSC because they’re prices were so low. Period.

Now you’re concocting the idea that an “army of shill accounts” were put into place to keep them afloat?

They have the best prices around, and yes they fucked a few people over, but the majority of their customers are extremely happy.

This is top tier TDS type paranoia.

Wait what? Millard lost business? What income did he lose?

 

[T&H]

You’re hilarious! Now take off the tinfoil hat and taper off of your SSRI’s.

You lost business to QSC because they’re prices were so low. Period.

Now you’re concocting the idea that an “army of shill accounts” were put into place to keep them afloat?

They have the best prices around, and yes they fucked a few people over, but the majority of their customers are extremely happy.

This is top tier TDS type paranoia.

You ever hear the saying "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one who whelps is the one you hit?" You're one of the number of new account QSC defendants who who primarily in their thread, standing up for them against any criticism. Sounds like he struck a nerve with you.

And here you are, trying to convince the owner of the forum he's wrong. It's actually pretty pathetic you felt the need to come into this thread and back them.

 

[MisterSuperGod]

Quickly quoting to permanently preserve this blessed beatdown

Someone's pretty pissed that their shill services are no longer needed here. Hilarious. i knew this day would come, but i didn't think i would enjoy it this much.

Wait what? Millard lost business? What income did he lose?

Dingdong has stated that they never paid a dime here. Ingrates. They shit all over the carpet and never once offered to have it cleaned. Bozo the clown is just mad that he's out of work and it's all Millards fault somehow. Dingdong can do no wrong.

 

[Liska]

Someone's pretty pissed that their shill services are no longer needed here. Hilarious. i knew this day would come, but i didn't think i would enjoy it this much.

Please do not take away my innocent dream of that guy confusing Millard for a UGL

 

[Rido]

Please do not take away my innocent dream of that guy confusing Millard for a UGL

Millard is @XKawN

 

[MisterSuperGod]

While we're on the subject of "members" living in source threads with ulterior motives, i think it the latest back and forth in the Dingdong thread is very telling.

One ankle biter with a broken heart and one that seems to be trying to take full control of the path the thread is heading in. Almost like it's their own. If that's just the posts of a satisfied customer then i'm seriously concerned what is inside those $6 vials.

 

[Fenrir51]

i'm seriously concerned what is inside those $6 vials.

Floaters for starters ha, ha.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

They have the best prices around, and yes they fucked a few people over

This is called ‘saying the quiet part out loud’.

 

[Millard]

There's probably businesses specialized in offering fake review/feedback services that are setup to evade common detection methods as those you described even for boards like this given how extremely lucrative similar services are for social media platforms. I cannot think of any AAS related place online where that amount of new accounts could be coming from organically to post solely in a singular thread, supporting a source with a similar posting style as no place of origin was ever mentioned by any of them iirc.

There were many such websites that offered fake review services for Amazon sellers until Amazon started suing them. I'm not aware of any such fake review services for steroid sources. I don't think it's really necessary given how easy it is to incentivize customers to do the same.

I can confirm that most of these accounts come from dozens of geographically distinct locations across North America, Europe, etc. This is easily determined because they are not using VPNs or TOR. So I can rule out alt accounts.

The alleged appearance of a "similar posting style" is unlikely due to it being the same person or persons but more likely due to the shared obsequious and ingratiating language. There are only so many ways they can do this.

My conclusion is it is an incentivized customer base accounts for most of these type of accounts (not ruling out a few secret reps). Or maybe they are just fanbois doing it for free.

Again, I think all reviews, both positive and negative should be welcome. It's just the motivations become suspect if the reviewer takes it upon themselves as a part-time job (paid or unpaid) to defend and/or promote a source. It's not necessary if someone genuinely wants to just share their experience.

For what it's worth, incentivized reviews have been banned since last year if the incentive is not initially disclosed. Unfortunately, the rule is unenforceable unless someone admits they received an incentive from the source.

 

[Millard]

You’re hilarious! Now take off the tinfoil hat and taper off of your SSRI’s.

You lost business to QSC because they’re prices were so low. Period.

Now you’re concocting the idea that an “army of shill accounts” were put into place to keep them afloat?

They have the best prices around, and yes they fucked a few people over, but the majority of their customers are extremely happy.

This is top tier TDS type paranoia.

I'm not sure if you are taking exception to my characterization of customers who go the extra mile to promote and defend sources. Or if you are completely lacking in self-awareness.

At any rate, you've made my point as Exhibit A.

 

[Liska]

For what it's worth, incentivized reviews have been banned since last year if the incentive is not initially disclosed. Unfortunately, the rule is unenforceable unless someone admits they received an incentive from the source.

I remembered a story from long ago (perhaps before said ban) regarding this case, you're actually completely correct and my theory can be disregarded entirely.

 

[Jdave]

This is an interesting moderation issue.

The guy seems to have a legitimate complaint (and even if it wasn't, he wouldn't be restricted from bringing it up). The primary goal of the Steroid Underground subforum is to provide a platform for everyone to do this with as few restrictions as possible.

At the same time, we must have basic rules and regulations on how this should be done.

What crosses the line?

Wishing, hoping, or calling for physical violence - including threats of sexual violence and political - and self-harm is prohibited.

Spamming the same message/photo again and again; copying and pasting the message across multiple threads, hijacking unrelated threads with the same message is prohibited.

Doxxing (posting personally identifiable information about forum users) and also posting potentially personally identifiable information information about forum users is prohibited.

OTOH, threats to report sources to credit card companies, paypal, better business bureau, regulatory and law enforcement agencies have not been been prohibited. These seem like moderating actions aimed more at protecting the source than members. Thoughts?

Getting the police involved in someone's drama over buying stuff that's illegal in the first place.... kinda fucking gay, no?

The steroid underground is BUILT on the procurement of restricted chemicals and pharmaceuticals - threatening to bring LE of any kind around business related here should be ban worthy. Even tho LE know, lurk, and individual LE probably purchase from here-- do blatantly rat someone based on it should be a hard and fast "no"

 

[pigeonhed]

Getting the police involved in someone's drama over buying stuff that's illegal in the first place.... kinda fucking gay, no?

The steroid underground is BUILT on the procurement of restricted chemicals and pharmaceuticals - threatening to bring LE of any kind around business related here should be ban worthy. Even tho LE know, lurk, and individual LE probably purchase from here-- do blatantly rat someone based on it should be a hard and fast "no"

You are explaining to @Millard what the Steroid Underground is built for?

Seriously? What am I missing?