HCG and desensitization..

[mack]

hi there. i have read a lot about hcg side effects and possible desensitization.
myself i was on trt for long time and had fertility issues so my doctor prescribed a following protocol:

3000 ui hcg 3x week
150 ui hmg 3x week

for 3 months

and during all this time even after 3 months i was responding to HCG.so where is this so called desensitization ?or em i missing something?



this is almost a standart protocol for fertility treatment and you could find a lot of doctors prescribing protocol like this.even as high as 5000ui hcg 3x week or 150mgn every day.

so could anyone explain this to me?

 

[Bigup7]

??? just on TRT DOSE..

 

[mands]

Myth!!!

mands

 

[michaltyler]

From what I've heard, the desensitization isn't towards the HCG, but it supposedly desensitizes you to your naturally produced FSH and LH once HCG is discontinued. Not sure if this is true, but if your main goal is fertility then it shouldn't matter as long as you're actually ON HCG.
From a PCT perspective it might be worth researching more.

 

[mands]

He's talking about leydig cell desensitization I believe?

mands

 

[michaltyler]

He's talking about leydig cell desensitization I believe?

mands

Yea, but there wouldn't be any desensitization to the leydig cell while he's on HCG. But once he stops HCG, his leydig cells might be less sensitive to his own LH. Right?

 

[roastdawg]

Hcg does permanent damage to leydig cells as I understand it. There is a way to mitigate this I think but I forget what it is.

 

[mands]

Hcg does permanent damage to leydig cells as I understand it. There is a way to mitigate this I think but I forget what it is.

Says who?

mands

 

[roastdawg]

Says who?

mands

http://forum.a1supplements.com/content.php?502-Avoiding-HCG-Burnout-with-NAC

This was the article I was thinking of.

 

[mands]

http://forum.a1supplements.com/content.php?502-Avoiding-HCG-Burnout-with-NAC

This was the article I was thinking of.

I would be very wary of any supplement shop, website, etc. making certain claims just to sell a product.

EVO and HCGenerate is a prime example.

mands

 

[Michael Scally MD]

http://forum.a1supplements.com/content.php?502-Avoiding-HCG-Burnout-with-NAC

This was the article I was thinking of.

[I'll Be Back]

Gwartney:

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Back in 2013, I was provided the following link (by Gwartney): Avoiding HCG Burnout With NAC. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/articles-forum/82068-avoiding-hcg-burnout-nac.html.

Here are some comments.

Let's get this one doozy out, front & center. I have read numerous times where it is stated as if fact that using too much hCG can cause testes failure resulting in primary hypogonadism.

This IS FALSE. And, that is saying it nicely.

There is not a single clinical study showing Leydig Cell desensitization. This phenomenon occurs with higher doses (5,000 IU) at shorter intervals, but even here the cells continue to produce T. Many times, I have read where some speak of Leydig cell failure due to hCG. Again, no such evidence. I suppose this is what they are calling hCG burnout. Shoe me a case/study.

On Aggarwal, they have to be joking. You can not be serious!

I will go into more detail later how these studies mean nothing for the clinical use, but let's start with these problems. [But, even with these fails the studies mean nothing for the BB.]

1. Rats, NOT humans. Do you know just how bad rat studies translate to humans? Almost nothing. In fact, thier use for FDA studies is mostly for toxicity.
2. In vitro
3. Endpoint - NOT T or even Spermatogenesis, but a mixed bag
4. hCG dose - this one is a real joke; as seen for almost all rat studies the dose used is HUGE.
5. hCG schedule - DAILY, why would one use hCG QD if not trying to "poison" the outcome
6. India

Aggarwal A, Misro MM, et al. Adverse effects associated with persistent stimulation of Leydig cells with hCG in vitro. Mol Reprod Dev, 2009 Nov;76(11):1076-83. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19575391

Aggarwal A, Misro MM, et al. Differential modulation of apoptotic gene expression by N-acetyl-l-cysteine in Leydig cells stimulated persistently with hCG in vivo. Mol Cell Endocrinal, 2011 Aug 12.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21856376

More to come...

 

[michaltyler]

Back in 2013, I was provided the following link (by Gwartney): Avoiding HCG Burnout With NAC. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/articles-forum/82068-avoiding-hcg-burnout-nac.html.

Here are some comments.

Let's get this one doozy out, front & center. I have read numerous times where it is stated as if fact that using too much hCG can cause testes failure resulting in primary hypogonadism.

This IS FALSE. And, that is saying it nicely.

There is not a single clinical study showing Leydig Cell desensitization. This phenomenon occurs with higher doses (5,000 IU) at shorter intervals, but even here the cells continue to produce T. Many times, I have read where some speak of Leydig cell failure due to hCG. Again, no such evidence. I suppose this is what they are calling hCG burnout. Shoe me a case/study.

On Aggarwal, they have to be joking. You can not be serious!

I will go into more detail later how these studies mean nothing for the clinical use, but let's start with these problems. [But, even with these fails the studies mean nothing for the BB.]

1. Rats, NOT humans. Do you know just how bad rat studies translate to humans? Almost nothing. In fact, thier use for FDA studies is mostly for toxicity.
2. In vitro
3. Endpoint - NOT T or even Spermatogenesis, but a mixed bag
4. hCG dose - this one is a real joke; as seen for almost all rat studies the dose used is HUGE.
5. hCG schedule - DAILY, why would one use hCG QD if not trying to "poison" the outcome
6. India

Aggarwal A, Misro MM, et al. Adverse effects associated with persistent stimulation of Leydig cells with hCG in vitro. Mol Reprod Dev, 2009 Nov;76(11):1076-83. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19575391

Aggarwal A, Misro MM, et al. Differential modulation of apoptotic gene expression by N-acetyl-l-cysteine in Leydig cells stimulated persistently with hCG in vivo. Mol Cell Endocrinal, 2011 Aug 12.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21856376

More to come...

Interesting. Are there any studies showing that it does NOT desensitize leydig cells?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Interesting. Are there any studies showing that it does NOT desensitize leydig cells?

How about EVERY published study!!! WTF.

 

[mands]

Interesting. Are there any studies showing that it does NOT desensitize leydig cells?

Yes sir!

mands

 

[Michael Scally MD]

As promised, more ...

The conclusion of the 'bro post by Gwartney is so nonsensical.

He uses this oxidative stress studies to hawk NAC. [BTW: Is he working/consulting for any NAC companies.] But, NONE of these studies are clinically translatable to men. They have NO meaning. As the study showed above, spermatogenesis was normal.

Then, he goes on to say use of 1,500 IU that "if such a dose were maintained for greater than one week, apoptosis and reduced testosterone production may ensue." He says this with NO, NONE, NADA, ZIP evidence. NOT even his own cites. WTF!

He goes on to say, "Optimal dosing appears to be within a range between 250-500 IU, administered two to five times weekly." Last time I did any math, 5X500 = 2,500. This is more than his 1,500. But who doses 5 X per week. WHO??? [This should tell you to be careful of his writings. They are NOT credible.]

This flies in the face of 100s of studies using hCG up to 5,000 IU 2-3 times per week with success for both testosterone and spermatogenesis. In the more recent studies, the dose is 2,000-2,500 IU.

I would assume he is referring to AAS induced hypogonadism in the last sentence.

Quote: "Even done correctly, there remains a risk of long-term suppression with the use of high-dose AAS that does not respond to hCG or other post-cycle therapy. Bodybuilders should not disregard this potential risk, as it may lead to lifetime dependence upon testosterone replacement or testosterone deficiency if it goes undiagnosed or untreated."

What does this have to do with hCG. Moreover, it sounds like he is saying hCG is needed! IMO, any basic educated AAS user recognizes the risk of ASIH. Thus the use of hCG.

IF anyone speaks about hCG causing hypogonadism, they are idiots. This is COMPLETE and TOTAL CRAP. This has never been seen even remotely clinically. Or, as far as I know experimentally in rats, mice , geese, fish, ...

"The take-home message is that short-term hCG for post-cycle treatment will likely achieve maximal effect near 1,500 IU, though elevated aromatase activity will induce unwanted estrogen-related adverse effects. The Leydig cells will face undue oxidative stress, and if such a dose were maintained for greater than one week, apoptosis and reduced testosterone production may ensue. Optimal dosing appears to be within a range between 250-500 IU, administered two to five times weekly with antioxidant support (NAC, lipoic acid and vitamin D)."

And, to REPEAT, this statement is total and complete horse shit. This alone should make anything this fool posts as suspect. It also shows how cites are used inappropriately, but hey it's Bro Science.

"Even done correctly, there remains a risk of long-term suppression with the use of high-dose AAS that does not respond to hCG or other post-cycle therapy. Bodybuilders should not disregard this potential risk, as it may lead to lifetime dependence upon testosterone replacement or testosterone deficiency if it goes undiagnosed or untreated."

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Also, this abstract deals with spermatogenesis, not testosterone production. "There was a significant positive correlation between HCG dose during the cycle and the relative amount of morphologically abnormal spermatozoa (r = 0.60, p < 0.01)."

Further, they state spermatogenesis was maintained, "although spermatogenesis is maintained with this regimen despite prolonged abuse of massive doses of AAS."

What effect did this have on ability for birth. My guess NONE. Also, AAS cause apoptosis of testes.

It is more likely AAS since this would fly in the face of the overwhelming number of studies using hCG long-term FOR fertility.

I could obtain the full-text for a complete review, but this does not provide evidence for not using hCG.

KarilaT, Hovatta 0, et al. Concomitant abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids and human chorionic gonadotrophin impairs spermatogenesis in power athletes. Int J Sports Med, 2004 May;25(4):257-63.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15162244

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I have used hCG in 1000s of cases with NOT a single case of no testes response (FAILURE). I have changed the frequency of hCG to Q3-4D with doses of 1,000-2,000 IU.

 

[mands]

This is my favorite from his write up.

"Most AAS users are convinced of the necessity of using hCG post-cycle; many during cycle as well. However, inappropriately dosed, hCG can actually impair natural testosterone production and even cause the Leydig cells to die off.6,7"

mands

 

[Nicolaus]

Bump