HCG and desensitization..

[master.on]

Great post Dr Scally

This is what I have been telling you all the time
HCG WORKS. Plain fact.
Don't listen to shills telling you it doesn't so you but their crappy T vials.

Just 2 possible HCG downsides
1 Excess estrogen (not a big deal with some AIs or even SERMs)
2 Some RARE cases of big guys who've been on gear nonstop for 10+years (usually with grape-sized testis) will find HCG increases their natural T, but still short of adequate levels. Even so, doctors (at a family planning clinic I've visited) will prescribe T + HCG + AI for about 6 months, 1 year tops, always to find out they can finally stop T cold turkey as the HCG restarted the testis.

Again HCG works wonders.
HCG desensitization is bs
and pituitary shutdown by HCG is ALWAYS temporary, as Dr Scally cleverly pointed out in other post.

 

[Nicolaus]

Master.on,

Have you ever been on hcg long term? Guess I'm talking 3+ months at a time.
Maybe even a year straight.


If not, would you know if long term use would negatively affect or even destroy one's ability to produce enough LH and FSH?

 

[master.on]

Master.on,

Have you ever been on hcg long term? Guess I'm talking 3+ months at a time.
Maybe even a year straight.


If not, would you know if long term use would negatively affect or even destroy one's ability to produce enough LH and FSH?

Yes I did
it increased my T to 1500 despite very high estrogen

Dr Scally quoted a study and his medical practice that LH/FSH downregulation is only temporary, never a proven case of permanent shutdown has been documented

 

[tenpoundsleft]

I have used hCG in 1000s of cases with NOT a single case of no testes response (FAILURE). I have changed the frequency of hCG to Q3-4D with doses of 1,000-2,000 IU.

For those of us on permanent TRT - using the "standard" 250 IU of HCG twice per week approach - will this maintain fertility levels? (And yes, I have been sufficiently fertile to multiply twice, but that was before AAS/TRT.) Reasonable to assume that the sperm factory is working?

 

[master.on]

For those of us on permanent TRT - using the "standard" 250 IU of HCG twice per week approach - will this maintain fertility levels? (And yes, I have been sufficiently fertile to multiply twice, but that was before AAS/TRT.) Reasonable to assume that the sperm factory is working?

Only sperm analysis (spermogram) can tell that.
Some people who never ever touched a steroid are sterile despite good T, LH and FSH levels.
Most likely yes, as male contraception studies has shown most patients recovered fertility upon androgen discontinuation (no pct)

 

[Nicolaus]

Yes I did
it increased my T to 1500 despite very high estrogen

Dr Scally quoted a study and his medical practice that LH/FSH downregulation is only temporary, never a proven case of permanent shutdown has been documented

Please excuse my multiple questions.

How long did you take it for? In response to my long term hcg use question.

Would you advise against using it long term? And by downregulation, do you mean desensitization? I'm assuming when people say desensitization, they mean the ability of our body to respond to LH, or the ability to produce normal amounts of LH after cessation of hcg

Also, did you combat the high estrogen levels with SERMs or AIs or none?

Thank you

 

[master.on]

Please excuse my multiple questions.

How long did you take it for? In response to my long term hcg use question.

Would you advise against using it long term? And by downregulation, do you mean desensitization? I'm assuming when people say desensitization, they mean the ability of our body to respond to LH, or the ability to produce normal amounts of LH after cessation of hcg

Also, did you combat the high estrogen levels with SERMs or AIs or none?

Thank you

No problem, I'm glad to help.

I've used it intermittently for about 6 months
long term use is OK as long as 1 you use moderate doses and 2 you watch your estrogen

The body makes LH and FSH, males shouldn't make any HCG, in fact natiral HCG in men is a tumor marker (sign you may have a tumor)
Injected HCG mimics mostly LH and FSH to a lesser degree
by injecting HCG your LH/FSH will TEMPORARILY drop, so you must wait for LH/FSH production to restart. I say it takes a couple months.
Please note that I stressed the word TEMPORARILY as studies show no evidence exogenous HCG will permanently shut down LH/FSH. Dr @Michael Scally MD has repeatedly pointed this out, and he posted some studies backing these claims, I believe.

Right now I eased HCG as I got high T, 1200 something I believe, but 80s Estradiol, and I only have some Letrozole powder at hand, so I'll have to brew it at a really low concentration to measure low doses, I'm waiting for Exemestane powder to arrive.

Be aware that SERMs only block estrogen actions, and some studies say they don't do that completely in all tissues on all receptor types.
SERMs may keep estrogen increasing, while not fully blocking their actions, far from ideal.
Besides, SERMs have dangerous long-term side effects, potentially ruining your eyes as an example. While Aromatase Inhibitors are safer and more effective.

Some people, both males and females, have underfunctioning pituitaries so they make little or no LH/FSH
most doctors will use long-term HCG to SAFELY treat these patients as LH/FSH meds are too expensive.
For example read this study
Therapy with human chorionic gonadotrophin alone induces spermatogenesis in men with isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism--long-term follow-up.
Vicari E1, Mongioì A, Calogero AE, Moncada ML, Sidoti G, Polosa P, D'Agata R.
Author information
Abstract
The effects of long-term (14-120 months) hCG-treatment of 17 male patients affected by isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism (IHH) on testicular volume, plasma testosterone levels, and sperm concentration were assessed...
Therapy with human chorionic gonadotrophin alone induces spermatogenesis in men with isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism--long-term follow-up. - PubMed - NCBI

120 months = 10 years of safe use!!
hypogonadotropic hypogonadism = people who don't make enough LH/FSH
Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism - Wikipedia
70% became sperm positive but remember these people may have gone undiagnosed for years, even decades. Probably many of them since birth.

Bottomline:
1 Long-term HCG use is safe
2 it works
3 an AI is safer and more effective than SERMs
4 LH/FSH shutdown from long-term HCG is a busted myth

 

[Nicolaus]

No problem, I'm glad to help.

I've used it intermittently for about 6 months
long term use is OK as long as 1 you use moderate doses and 2 you watch your estrogen

The body makes LH and FSH, males shouldn't make any HCG, in fact natiral HCG in men is a tumor marker (sign you may have a tumor)
Injected HCG mimics mostly LH and FSH to a lesser degree
by injecting HCG your LH/FSH will TEMPORARILY drop, so you must wait for LH/FSH production to restart. I say it takes a couple months.
Please note that I stressed the word TEMPORARILY as studies show no evidence exogenous HCG will permanently shut down LH/FSH. Dr @Michael Scally MD has repeatedly pointed this out, and he posted some studies backing these claims, I believe.

Right now I eased HCG as I got high T, 1200 something I believe, but 80s Estradiol, and I only have some Letrozole powder at hand, so I'll have to brew it at a really low concentration to measure low doses, I'm waiting for Exemestane powder to arrive.

Be aware that SERMs only block estrogen actions, and some studies say they don't do that completely in all tissues on all receptor types.
SERMs may keep estrogen increasing, while not fully blocking their actions, far from ideal.
Besides, SERMs have dangerous long-term side effects, potentially ruining your eyes as an example. While Aromatase Inhibitors are safer and more effective.

Some people, both males and females, have underfunctioning pituitaries so they make little or no LH/FSH
most doctors will use long-term HCG to SAFELY treat these patients as LH/FSH meds are too expensive.
For example read this study
Therapy with human chorionic gonadotrophin alone induces spermatogenesis in men with isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism--long-term follow-up.
Vicari E1, Mongioì A, Calogero AE, Moncada ML, Sidoti G, Polosa P, D'Agata R.
Author information
Abstract
The effects of long-term (14-120 months) hCG-treatment of 17 male patients affected by isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism (IHH) on testicular volume, plasma testosterone levels, and sperm concentration were assessed...
Therapy with human chorionic gonadotrophin alone induces spermatogenesis in men with isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism--long-term follow-up. - PubMed - NCBI

120 months = 10 years of safe use!!
hypogonadotropic hypogonadism = people who don't make enough LH/FSH
Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism - Wikipedia
70% became sperm positive but remember these people may have gone undiagnosed for years, even decades. Probably many of them since birth.

Bottomline:
1 Long-term HCG use is safe
2 it works
3 an AI is safer and more effective than SERMs
4 LH/FSH shutdown from long-term HCG is a busted myth

I appreciate the thorough and detailed response sir.

I have few questions in response

1) why did you stop running hcg after 6 months of intermittent use? I'm assuming it was no longer needed? And maybe cessation of AAS?

2) What do you do after cessation of hcg to combat the temporary shut down of lh and fsh (which would lower one's testosterone levels and you stated 2 months) and assuming one is not taking any AAS. SERMs? AIs?

3) I guess this question can only be answered if I get my bloodwork done. Wouldn't SERMs be a better option for individuals who don't have a huge increase in estrogen levels from hcg use? Since an AI like exemestane is extremely effective at "removing" (putting quotes because not exactly sure the mode of action of exemestane) estrogen.

Once again I really appreciate your responses and time.

 

[master.on]

1 Because both I felt my balls getting bigger and hanging lover nice erections, nice muscle tone despite no cycle, but I also began to feel weak and drowsy after HCG injections, bloodtests revealed why: high Estradiol

2 I didn't feel any shutdown at all. Most don't.
I don't know if there are studies about it, but I felt like HCG somehow kept my testis in high production mode.

3 You definitely need bloods
While studies show low dose SERMs can boost T levels,
somehow it doesn't FEEL as good as HCG or TRT
I guess it has to do with most low T guys also having low E2, then SERMs block the activity of the little E2 left

 

[Nicolaus]

1 Because both I felt my balls getting bigger and hanging lover nice erections, nice muscle tone despite no cycle, but I also began to feel weak and drowsy after HCG injections, bloodtests revealed why: high Estradiol

2 I didn't feel any shutdown at all. Most don't.
I don't know if there are studies about it, but I felt like HCG somehow kept my testis in high production mode.

3 You definitely need bloods
While studies show low dose SERMs can boost T levels,
somehow it doesn't FEEL as good as HCG or TRT
I guess it has to do with most low T guys also having low E2, then SERMs block the activity of the little E2 left

Hello good sir, appreciate the structured replies

Guess the most important thing to do is monitor my blood levels while on Hcg and hopefully I can do it long term and will continue to do it if I don't feel fatigued or anything out of the ordinary.

Do you get blood work ordered by a physician or is there some website I can use to order blood tests. I think I've seen someone mention it on the board before but can't seem to recall.

Also this is off topic but do you take anything else, like b12 injections or any other ancillaries?

 

[Dr JIM]

While the use of HCG DOES down regulate the LH receptor such "desensitization" does NOT alter the effectiveness of HCG as a substitute for "TRT" since the number of LH transmembrane receptors was estimated to be roughly SIX THOUSAND per Leydig cell.

The net effect of such down regulation is minimal.

 

[Docd187123]

Hello good sir, appreciate the structured replies

Guess the most important thing to do is monitor my blood levels while on Hcg and hopefully I can do it long term and will continue to do it if I don't feel fatigued or anything out of the ordinary.

Do you get blood work ordered by a physician or is there some website I can use to order blood tests. I think I've seen someone mention it on the board before but can't seem to recall.

Also this is off topic but do you take anything else, like b12 injections or any other ancillaries?

Please don't pay any attention to anything masterbot says. It's for your own good.

 

[plisk]

I mentioned in another post that I have seen a clinical case study where they used as much as 10k iu weekly to treat ASIH and then pyramided down for 3 months (10k/weekly for first month, 5k/week 2nd, 2k/week third month) clearly the endocrinologist(s) involved were not concerned about so called desensitization or death.... By the way, he was eugonadal immediately after, and was eugonadal at the 30 month followup

Whats the average follow up of all these high school drop out pct geniuses you find on steroid boards? oh right they never actually come off the drugs!!

thats 40k iu in one month alone, and there are people who tell you boogeyman stories about using more than 250iu at a time

 

[master.on]

Please don't pay any attention to anything masterbot says. It's for your own good.

because master.on has exposed several shills
and they bash him in revenge

 

[Docd187123]

because master.on has exposed several shills
and they bash him in revenge

And the funny part is you truly believe that lol

 

[master.on]

Speaking of broscience/anecdotal experiences

GH15 agrees that HCG works
hcg always work no matter what you hear,,hcg never fails and will put anyone back to elephent balls and lots of sperm,,the problem with hcg is that it wil never be syntetic testosterone and thus cant grow you into neew dimentions,,so it give you bnack the big balls and lots of hard ons but with syntetic test at the right doses you get the hardons and the growth you want as bodybuiulder,, combination of both is best

gh15 approved
gh15 bible: shutdown and test-estro ratio:

 

[Docd187123]

 

[Nicolaus]

I mentioned in another post that I have seen a clinical case study where they used as much as 10k iu weekly to treat ASIH and then pyramided down for 3 months (10k/weekly for first month, 5k/week 2nd, 2k/week third month) clearly the endocrinologist(s) involved were not concerned about so called desensitization or death.... By the way, he was eugonadal immediately after, and was eugonadal at the 30 month followup

Whats the average follow up of all these high school drop out pct geniuses you find on steroid boards? oh right they never actually come off the drugs!!

thats 40k iu in one month alone, and there are people who tell you boogeyman stories about using more than 250iu at a time

I'm really relieved to read this. Could you provide the link by any chance to the post? I would love to read more. Do you have the original link also for the case study?

Thank you!!!

 

[Nicolaus]

Please don't pay any attention to anything masterbot says. It's for your own good.

Seems you guys have some beef which I wish not to be involved in. However, on another note, @master.on has provided some good advice so I'm grateful for that

 

[plisk]

I'm really relieved to read this. Could you provide the link by any chance to the post? I would love to read more. Do you have the original link also for the case study?

Thank you!!!

sure thing buddy

pretty sure this is the one: Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism treated with human chorionic gonadotropin.

the pages are accessible for blow up viewing