Health way worse after stopping TRT - Please advice me

[Hayes88]

Aloha guys,

Sorry for a lot of text, don't want to miss potential important details.
Been a while, have had a series of bad luck privately and they keep coming as a pack as they always do and
I don't see a light at the tunnel yet.
However, I thought I could at least ask for health advice so I can gather some energy and battle the rest.

I decided with my lady to stop hormones altogether, reason being two-fold.
1) Kids (the obvious one).
2) We will move to a country where I cannot get the TRT I want legally.
With family on years of planing ahead, I decided to try reset.

I followed this PCT protocol:
Due to been on for many years and nuts gone I experimented with 2 weeks after last injection with
HCG (1250 mon/ thur). At the two week mark I started.
- Clomid 50mg
- Nolva 40mg
- Cardarine 20mg
- Ostarine 20mg (recommended at Evolutionary)
- Aromasin on hand (taken two small pieces so far)
- Bunch of natural testo boosters, tudca, nac, omega, garlic, vitamin e, c, probiotics, herbs, you name it.

Since week 4 til now week 6 I believe, I've done all the same but lowered Nolva to 20.

First weeks I felt great, better even! Libido, mood, energy, sleep, all got better until last 3 weeks.
- Libido gone (expected)
- Training energy and strength gone (expected)
- Getting sick constantly (not expected)
- Returning fungus (not expected)
- Higher BP even on strong meds (not expected)

First I got a bad flu and was sick a week, healthy a few days, then I got freaking Covid immediately after that (now)
and sick another week.
Got a fungus that refuses to yield, returns each time I get lowered immune system.
So besides feeling mentally shitty, I also keep getting bad health, loosing work and gym (dropped 8kgs).

I also have a BP of 140-150/60-70 on Amlodipine/ Valsartan 10/160mg (morning) combo and dozazosin 4mg (night).
Doc think it might be chronic stress, but damnit, should be controllable with BP meds?
This came and stuck about the same time I stopped hormones oddly enough, was on 130/60 last cycle on less BP meds.

Bloodwork:
- I've done blood test, pee tests, ultrasounds, x-rays, adrenal tests, thyroid, sugar tests, vitamin d test, cholesterol tests, cancer markers, you name it.
They haven't seen a single point that was sticking out, all in excellent range according to doctors.

However, I have not yet received my hormone panel. What was tested was LH, FSH, TEST, E2, SHBG.
Expected delivery end of next week.

I don't wanna force myself back on TRT before even reaching a few months to see what works as I know it takes time.
Though the health issues affect everything, I feel low and frankly unclean, so I loose battery to deal with private matters.
- Is this a normal situation to go through after stopping TRT? Getting sick?

 

[deadlypotato]

If you have decided to get off of TRT, you should give it some more time so that your body can recover, I am pretty sure most of this stuff was expected.

Till then your best bet would be try to reduce the withdrawal symptoms you're getting so you can actually give ur body time to stabilize and try to function without exogenous androgens.

What you're doing for blood pressure is good and you can jack up the dosages if you want.

For low mood, depression and low energy, get on a cortisol reducing drug, preferably mirtazapine, as its noradregenic action would help with energy levels and serotonin with mood. You can also go with cyproheptadine as well but in my experience mirtazapine is far superior.

To jack up ur immune system temporarily, get on a CNS stimulant, preferably MPH (or ideally epipen if you can get it, but I assume it would be tough) since it increases adrenaline significantly. Initially the symptoms would get worse but they'll soon subside, if u want to just get rid of the allergy-like symptoms go with an antihistamine, mirtazapine has antihistaminergic properties too so I believe it will help you a lot. Plus it will also help with the weight loss you are having.

 

[IronMetal_2]

Drop the Ostarine, drop the cardarine, drop the nolva, no hcg, no aromasin.

Just take 50 mg Clomid everyday. If feasible, switch to enclomiphene.
Post your blood work results here.

You have way too many variables. Your pct will not work better by introducing so many compounds, if anything you'll feel worse and not know why. Keep it simple and go from there would be my advice.

 

[Nidus]

You are on a PCT but use Ostarine which supresses your HPTA

 

[jozl88]

What kind of TRT were you on ...also what dose (mg per week) did you use. It may take quite some time to regain the natural function

 

[lukiss96]

You take so much stuff no wonder your health is not good. You don't need most of those drugs to recover hpta and fertility.

 

[DECLAN]

How is your nutrition and training as well as sleep. Sometimes when we stop gear usage we also more likely to become lax on our diet and not focus at the gym.

Get your diet, training and sleep/recovery in optimal form and I bet you will improve tremendously. Adding cardio be it LISS or HIT will only improve mood and overall fitness.

 

[Hayes88]

Thank you guys! Will try answer one by one here.

- Ostarine was added by recommendation as the suppression was slim to non at best at those dosages, but could help me keep some of the muscle. Was discontinued from the day I got sick, so haven't taken Cardarine or Ostarine for 3 weeks now, should have mentioned that.

- The rest is natural remedies which seems to be a rather common occurance for anyone, example being N2Guard or N2Generate, so sounded like it could help, and this I am still taking.

- I was pending on TRT between 150-200 a week with a few cycles here and there, and I think I have passed a 4-5 year mark on right now at least.

- Nutrition, sleep and training is down the drain right now due to me being sick more or less for 3 weeks, but was great before that. However, I have an extreme amount of stress right now, I don't feel stress (just low), but damn do I have a reason to be haha, so I guess my body know that.

- Today will be the first day in 3 weeks I will try to do some light jogging and stretching. I "repair" extremely slow it seems, even wound healing is slowed down, but blood markers seems great.

- I am supposed to stop PCT altogether in a few days, meaning no Nolva, Clomid, should I continue Clomid regardless as above at 50?

 

[goodstuffbro]

fungus medication (ketoconazole) will impair testosterone production, could cause lethargy, I suppose the covid (or maybe an infection before it?) + ketoconazole combo is causing all your troubles.
Also drop the Ostarine, it's suppressing and won't do much. I used it in pct once many years ago and was everything but useful.

 

[IronMetal_2]

Thank you guys! Will try answer one by one here.

- Ostarine was added by recommendation as the suppression was slim to non at best at those dosages, but could help me keep some of the muscle. Was discontinued from the day I got sick, so haven't taken Cardarine or Ostarine for 3 weeks now, should have mentioned that.

- The rest is natural remedies which seems to be a rather common occurance for anyone, example being N2Guard or N2Generate, so sounded like it could help, and this I am still taking.

- I was pending on TRT between 150-200 a week with a few cycles here and there, and I think I have passed a 4-5 year mark on right now at least.

- Nutrition, sleep and training is down the drain right now due to me being sick more or less for 3 weeks, but was great before that. However, I have an extreme amount of stress right now, I don't feel stress (just low), but damn do I have a reason to be haha, so I guess my body know that.

- Today will be the first day in 3 weeks I will try to do some light jogging and stretching. I "repair" extremely slow it seems, even wound healing is slowed down, but blood markers seems great.

- I am supposed to stop PCT altogether in a few days, meaning no Nolva, Clomid, should I continue Clomid regardless as above at 50?

I would recommend waiting for the blood work results and decide from there. Many don't feel well on clomid mentally, would only take it for a short period of time. Once HPTA is restarted, I would just drop it. Or take enclomiphene, is tolerated better.

Also would not take advice from evolutionary, they are pushing sarms way to much. Ostarine at 20 mg most likely is suppressive and will also tank your shbg. Just don't use these things during PCT when goal is to recover as fast as possible.

Will be interesting to see your blood panel once available. Wishing you speedy recovery.

 

[Hayes88]

Really appreciate the help guys, makes me feel calmer. Will drop results here asap when they arrive, was told Thursday but hope earlier. Will drop all the extra for now.

Interesting note, slept very deep this night with no Alarm. Woke up to 118/64 - 42 pulse this morning, best bp in ages. Wonder if the stress is a factor there afterall.

 

[UncleBuns]

Taking any suppressive compound during PCT is stupid. Why would you suppress your balls while you are trying to get them functioning again? Makes no sense. Drop the ostarine and throw it in the trash. It's all around a terrible and weak compounds.

Why cardarine? Get rid of it.

Only take aromasin as f you have blood work showing to high E2. You are likely crushing your estrogen with it. If you are doing a restart after years a full suppression, your hormone levels are likely low to begin with, so you're just crushing what little estrogen you may have. E2 is important for immune function.

Personally I think taking HCG with SERM can work but doing both at high dose is counterproductive. Take HCG eod. If you're going to take SERMS get regular blood work to see if LH and FSH are turned back on. Hcg suppresses them both. SERMs may be able to push LH and FSH while on HCG, maybe.

You didn't say if your testicles are severely atrophied. If they are then I would just use HCG and HMG until they are back reasonable size then hit the SERMs. If they are not then just do the HCG for like 6 weeks and transition into the serms. 50 Clomid and 40 Nolva is a lot. Maybe 50 and 20 then 1/2 both and after a time 1/2 both again. Ween off.

You need to be getting blood work done pretty regularly so you can see how things are progressing. That's really the only way to make good decisions about how to progress.

 

[bigrobbie]

Aloha guys,

Sorry for a lot of text, don't want to miss potential important details.
Been a while, have had a series of bad luck privately and they keep coming as a pack as they always do and
I don't see a light at the tunnel yet.
However, I thought I could at least ask for health advice so I can gather some energy and battle the rest.

I decided with my lady to stop hormones altogether, reason being two-fold.
1) Kids (the obvious one).
2) We will move to a country where I cannot get the TRT I want legally.
With family on years of planing ahead, I decided to try reset.

I followed this PCT protocol:
Due to been on for many years and nuts gone I experimented with 2 weeks after last injection with
HCG (1250 mon/ thur). At the two week mark I started.
- Clomid 50mg
- Nolva 40mg
- Cardarine 20mg
- Ostarine 20mg (recommended at Evolutionary)
- Aromasin on hand (taken two small pieces so far)
- Bunch of natural testo boosters, tudca, nac, omega, garlic, vitamin e, c, probiotics, herbs, you name it.

Since week 4 til now week 6 I believe, I've done all the same but lowered Nolva to 20.

First weeks I felt great, better even! Libido, mood, energy, sleep, all got better until last 3 weeks.
- Libido gone (expected)
- Training energy and strength gone (expected)
- Getting sick constantly (not expected)
- Returning fungus (not expected)
- Higher BP even on strong meds (not expected)

First I got a bad flu and was sick a week, healthy a few days, then I got freaking Covid immediately after that (now)
and sick another week.
Got a fungus that refuses to yield, returns each time I get lowered immune system.
So besides feeling mentally shitty, I also keep getting bad health, loosing work and gym (dropped 8kgs).

I also have a BP of 140-150/60-70 on Amlodipine/ Valsartan 10/160mg (morning) combo and dozazosin 4mg (night).
Doc think it might be chronic stress, but damnit, should be controllable with BP meds?
This came and stuck about the same time I stopped hormones oddly enough, was on 130/60 last cycle on less BP meds.

Bloodwork:
- I've done blood test, pee tests, ultrasounds, x-rays, adrenal tests, thyroid, sugar tests, vitamin d test, cholesterol tests, cancer markers, you name it.
They haven't seen a single point that was sticking out, all in excellent range according to doctors.

However, I have not yet received my hormone panel. What was tested was LH, FSH, TEST, E2, SHBG.
Expected delivery end of next week.

I don't wanna force myself back on TRT before even reaching a few months to see what works as I know it takes time.
Though the health issues affect everything, I feel low and frankly unclean, so I loose battery to deal with private matters.
- Is this a normal situation to go through after stopping TRT? Getting sick?

How long has your HPTA been shutdown....I mean, how long were you on trt and cycling b4 that?
My bad if I missed it.

 

[twistedfire11]

I would just stop everything and wait a few months most people come back to normal within a year.

 

[bigrobbie]

Yea if you're in your 20's and have run maybe one cycle. You telling him to cold turkey?
Do you know his age, stats and details? If not that's awful advice

 

[twistedfire11]

All I know is the information on the original post. He’s moving and planning for children. In his attempt to restore to normal he took everything without knowing the drug interactions. I don’t think he should play doctor on himself.

 

[bigrobbie]

All I know is the information on the original post. He’s moving and planning for children. In his attempt to restore to normal he took everything without knowing the drug interactions. I don’t think he should play doctor on himself.

I will agree with his hasty even desperate attempt at black market self medication!
It's like breaking your ankle and you take Tylenol, morphine, calcium, vitamin D, 5 herbal remedies and having a voodoo priest shake some chicken bones over it.....
Desperate measures come from impatience or a woman or both.
So in that respect I see your logic but I don't think "do nothing and you'll be fine" is a good angle either.

Did he even bother to mention or ask about hcg and hmg? I'm thinking Nolvadex and hcg would have been enough. HMG if his old lady is demanding a bundle of joy

 

[Hayes88]

I gotta say that some answers confuse me somewhat extremely. A common PCT regimen since the beginning of time has been Nolva with Clomid, even Dr.Scally program which is famous and has worked on me before helped immensely. Nolva been on 20 for a while now, but I tried to drop it after the messages from @IronMetal_2.

A common addition to that is hcg, but as I understand is a more controversial topic when to use it, but again, it's even in stickies here, which is close to my regimen. So are the stickies wrong?

Cardarine has no negative effect in recovery and has a myriad of benefits documented. However, Ostarine was a dumb move, I got it from another group at Evolutionary and that PCT regimen is widely used, but anything suppressive should not be in my regiment I agree. However, neither has been used for 3 weeks.

That leaves vitamins and minerals, not really sure why anyone us jumping the gun there...

Now I have IronMetal stating only Clomid (though he has provided the most sound feedback, thank you!), I have UncleBuns leaning towards HCG and/ or HMG first (restart?) before Serms, then I now have hcg and Nolva from Bigrobbie.

So forgive me, but I'll hold until bloods come and then I will see what answers actually correspond to each other after, as disregarding stickies and getting several different leaning answers is not really helping.

 

[Jin23]

- Ostarine 20mg (recommended at Evolutionary)

Oh boy, these Fuckers are still at it?! Some criminal charges should seriously be brought to that place.

Ostarine will shut you down at those dosages. The fact that a 20mg dose is usable for pct is a fairytale brought on by evolutionary.

OP, PCT's and recovery for lengthy cycle's/trt/bc is something completely different then for a 12 week run of the mill aas cycle. You are feeling like crap because you are nowhere near recovered, simple as that. Your research, if you actually did any research for coming off of a lengthy "cycle", is very much lacking. I suggest you do a lot more digging on how to pct and then do the actual pct. It's going to take a long time, a year probably for you to feel normal, that is IF you actually recover to an adequate degree.

Your gonads need to come back alive first (hcg for a month or more), then your hypothalamus needs to wake up and start producing gnrh again, which takes time, and then the same for your pituitary. It's not uncommon for people to be PCTing for half a year ...

 

[Gigantic]

Cardarine 20mg
- Ostarine 20mg (recommended at Evolutionary)
- Aromasin on hand (taken two small pieces so far)
- Bunch of natural testo boosters, tudca, nac, omega, garlic, vitamin e, c, probiotics, herbs, you name it.

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF PCT IS THIS?????????????

Stop all of that shit… it will suppress the helling fucking heck out of you. Stop going to Evolutionary and Anabolex, it’s filled with retards and shills.

All you need for PCT is clomid and maybe HCG. That’s all I ever needed.