Hello Meso! opinions on AAS vs SARMs for my personal goals?

[kronenberb]

Hi there,

New member here and I've really enjoyed the science based and quality anecdotal discussion I've been able to follow (as opposed to other forums that get a wee bit car-salesman-esque, triple stack and hcgenerate amiright?)

I'm interested in some self experimentation using anabolic PEDs to potentially increase my quality of life. I'm 5'9" 135lbs (I know I'm already asking for criticism by posting this figure) probably 5% BF relatively muscular for my weight. I am not under the impression that I've reached my natural physiological limit concerning hypertrophy and I'm aware that it's generally encouraged to stay natural until it is reached. So, first, let me introduce myself and my goals.

I've been rockclimbing for 8 years and enjoy a variety of mixed anabolic activities like bodyweight gymnastics rings exercises (NOT crossfit with that jerky kipping awful form), partner balancing, and bouldering. My natural athletic but overly lean build has let me progress very quickly initially at a variety of activities but I usually hit a plateau very quickly as well.

My goals are to increase recovery time so I can spend more time doing the things I love, put on a bit of lean mass (155 or more) so that I can effectively base heavier people in standing and aerial configurations, increase endurance so that I can play for 5 hours straight and have an increased sense of well being. My issue for a long time has been getting really run down after not even that intense of exercise and catching some sort of cold. I might have some chronic EBV, or thyroid issue or something but I've been to doctors a lot and basic bloodwork has always been fine. I'm going in on thursday to ask my doctor to request a hormone panel because I haven't had it done yet. Maybe, you're thinking that until i know whats going on it would be foolish to tamper with my hormones. Well, it's true but I like to self-experiment and there's a chance that messing with my hormones would actually make me feel a lot better and be able to recover faster and gain weight easier.

Currently it takes me 3 days or more to recover to the same extent that most people recover in a day or two. I'm not happy with this, because I cant push myself training very hard for fear of getting sick. I've never been over 138lbs no matter how much I eat. Food goes right through me. I was 125 about a month ago due to some illness and once I started to feel better I bounced back in less than two weeks so maybe gaining 5lbs a week wouldn't be hard at all with a little spice. I would like to develop my shoulder and chest strength so that I could progress in rings exercises and when supporting girls in partner acrobatics. For this I've started to mix in weights because currently certain bodyweight exercises are too intense like handstand pushups and planche pushups.

I'm very interested in the collagen synthesis and crosslinknig properties of PEDs as climbing and other activities I engage in are very strenuous on connective tissue. Avoiding increased muscle pump would be ideal if at all avoidable. Forearm pump while climbing is all but sought after.

For power and tendon strength it seems Boldenone-undecylonate (900mg FL and 400mg/wk) with test C at (400mg/wk) for 16wks [remember I'm a small dude so my blood conc will be higher than typical on these doses] would be a fun trial. Of course, PCT.

Primo seems interesting but I'd hate to test it on the GCMS or HPLC in my lab and find that it's bunk. I work in an analytical chemistry lab so whatever I end up getting will be verified for authenticity and purity. the least I can do to be safe-ish.

GW-501516 seems legit and definitely something I'm going to want to add. (good support on scholar literature)

But what about doing SARMs instead. MK-2866 or LGD?
and if I want to add the GH route... MK 677, GHRP(2/6) or IGF1-LR3?

I don't buy the whole "way safer/no sides from SARMs paradigm" I'd expect suppression from either route. Sure, sarms have less stigma and are newer-ish which is why they are marketed that way.

muscle gains, tendon/joint strength, endurance and hyperplasia are all equally important to me. Avoiding muscle wasting while I'm sick is also a bonus. I'm leaning towards the tried and true masters of muscle building (EQ plus the added benefit of eating like a horse) but maybe for my goals other options are better suited. Opinions?

 

[kronenberb]

Sorry, that it's a bit long.

 

[kronenberb]

no love for the newb

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I do not need to read the OP since the answer to the thread title is easy.

SARMs are WORTHLESS SHIT!!!

 

[TANGO.ECHO.KILO]

how old are you?

 

[Wunderpus]

no love for the newb

Relax big guy, took me like 13 hours to read your first post.

You provided a lot of info, but not a whole lot of helpful info.

To state the obvious, it sounds like you're not eating enough, at all. I believe you could put on a whole lot of weight just by increasing your caloric intake as well as your protein consumption.
What's your age?
What's your diet look like, roughly?

 

[D-Ballin]

Save the SARM money and buy more food.

Test C/E 500/wk (or 400 if you're really sold on that). I would save the EQ until next time, but it won't kill you. I know you're interested in the collagen properties, but it's going to be marginal at best. Any other possible benefit is going to be overshadowed by test on your first run. It's really all you'll need. Best off getting a base test dose dialed in, then going from there.

 

[Wunderpus]

Save the SARM money and buy more food.

Test C/E 500/wk (or 400 if you're really sold on that). I would save the EQ until next time, but it won't kill you. I know you're interested in the collagen properties, but it's going to be marginal at best. Any other possible benefit is going to be overshadowed by test on your first run. It's really all you'll need. Best off getting a base test dose dialed in, then going from there.

EQ might do wonders in the caloric intake department...

But I agree with the above statements, avoid SARMs.

Peptides such as IGF-1LR3 are still very mixed in reviews, and are fairly complicated as well as expensive to run.

If budget isn't a concern, pharma GH would be a nice choice.

You should get some bloodwork done to establish a baseline here.

 

[D-Ballin]

EQ might do wonders in the caloric intake department...
.

This is true.

Fuck, at 130lbs I'd add some weed too. Definitely going to need to find an appetite somehow.

Realistically though, if he can't get a baseline diet dialed in to break 155 with test, then he's wasting his time on drugs in general.

 

[Wunderpus]

This is true.

Fuck, at 130lbs I'd add some weed too. Definitely going to need to find an appetite somehow.

Realistically though, if he can't get a baseline diet dialed in to break 155 with test, then he's wasting his time on drugs in general.

I think he should eat a couple Whole Foods worth of food and train his ass off for about 6 months. Can't wait to see what the daily macro and exercise regimen looks like. Unless he has some ailment, he's not eating enough.

 

[kronenberb]

Thanks for the replies. I'm almost 27. Maybe I don't eat enough, but I've always been under the impression that I eat quite a lot. Usually when I eat with other people I'm eating twice the amount that guys at 200lbs eat. 200g dry weight of pasta with meat sauce is a serving for me compared to an average of 100-125 for most people. I do have a problem eating in the morning so i only eat 2-3 times a day. my first meal is almost always after noon. I typically eat a sandwich for lunch and as much as I can fit in my stomach for dinner. I guess I was interested in ostarine because it would be great to heal my shoulders, they tend to get tweaky and I just hurt my right one about a week ago and I have a year old left shoulder injury thats still a bit funky. should I be trying to slam protein drinks between meals or something? usually when I add up my daily protein I'm over 100g protein in a day. Haven't calculated carbs but its almost always a lot. You never met skinny fucks that eat a ton but don't gain weight? I'll rally think about the advice here and maybe instead of worrying about which hormones to take ill try to keep an eating log for a bit to see what my definition of eating a lot is compared to yours.

 

[D-Ballin]

Protein shakes can help to get the calories in a lot.

That last piece of your post is the important part. Take two weeks and do an accurate food log without any goals. Just eat on instinct, as usual. This is going to get you a calorie number pretty close to your maintenance (obviously track weight too while doing this).

Myfitnesspal makes it really easy.

There are some true "hard gainers" out there, but they tend to be rarer than people like to think, even for serious ectomorph types. Most who think they are are either drastically underestimating their calorie intake, or their activity level and energy expenditure. It's amazing how inaccurate a view of their diets most people have.

Either way, accurate food logging is a required skill before starting AAS. Otherwise you're wasting money trying to figure shit out as your cycle time ticks down.

 

[Wunderpus]

Thanks for the replies. I'm almost 27. Maybe I don't eat enough, but I've always been under the impression that I eat quite a lot. Usually when I eat with other people I'm eating twice the amount that guys at 200lbs eat. 200g dry weight of pasta with meat sauce is a serving for me compared to an average of 100-125 for most people. I do have a problem eating in the morning so i only eat 2-3 times a day. my first meal is almost always after noon. I typically eat a sandwich for lunch and as much as I can fit in my stomach for dinner. I guess I was interested in ostarine because it would be great to heal my shoulders, they tend to get tweaky and I just hurt my right one about a week ago and I have a year old left shoulder injury thats still a bit funky. should I be trying to slam protein drinks between meals or something? usually when I add up my daily protein I'm over 100g protein in a day. Haven't calculated carbs but its almost always a lot. You never met skinny fucks that eat a ton but don't gain weight? I'll rally think about the advice here and maybe instead of worrying about which hormones to take ill try to keep an eating log for a bit to see what my definition of eating a lot is compared to yours.

If you have a smartphone, download My Fitness Pal app. Try and be as accurate as you can with all the data you enter. Let's calculate how much you eat for a week or so.

that'll really help dial it all in if you decide to go down the AAS path. Nutrition is key with AAS.

 

[Wunderpus]

Protein shakes can help to get the calories in a lot.

That last piece of your post is the important part. Take two weeks and do an accurate food log without any goals. Just eat on instinct, as usual. This is going to get you a calorie number pretty close to your maintenance (obviously track weight too while doing this).

Myfitnesspal makes it really easy.

There are some true "hard gainers" out there, but they tend to be rarer than people like to think, even for serious ectomorph types. Most who think they are are either drastically underestimating their calorie intake, or their activity level and energy expenditure. It's amazing how inaccurate a view of their diets most people have.

Either way, accurate food logging is a required skill before starting AAS. Otherwise you're wasting money trying to figure shit out as your cycle time ticks down.

I didn't read this before I posted mine... LOL, well, we agree.

 

[ThE SiCkNeSs]

Bro, you really need to start eating more, I would wait to start a cycle. I would however, if I just was unable to consume enough food, try the ghrp6 / mod grf route as that would make you so hungry you will definitely be getting the nutrition you need as long as your eating the right foods. Also get some bloodwork and see where your natty test is at.

 

[Wunderpus]

Bro, you really need to start eating more, I would wait to start a cycle. I would however, if I just was unable to consume enough food, try the ghrp6 / mod grf route as that would make you so hungry you will definitely be getting the nutrition you need as long as your eating the right foods. Also get some bloodwork and see where your natty test is at.

Hate to say it, or, just man up and eat. You know how many times I've chewed chicken and swallowed it like a pill, just to meet my requirements? Too many....

Ghrp-6 helped me a lot. I do always think going the most natural route FIRST is ideal.

 

[RodgerThat]

So i use to live quite a similar lifestyle lots of climbing and some gymnastic style things and competed in ironman events, since i have started this lifestyle all of which have gone to crap. even low dose test wont help much as its a temporary solution to one of your problems but will introduce a bunch more that you probably wouldn't realize i.e your forearms pumping out after only 30 minutes of bouldering instead of 3 hours. If you think you aren't recovering fast enough then what you need to do is start using myfitness pal and for the next 3 weeks do not change a single thing about your eating habits, why you may ask? this way you can see that you are not getting enough calories to recover and that your macro-nutrients never have the consistency needed to aid in recovery. Once you have seen how you eat then we can look at how you should eat. Once again i will go to my past to give a reference, during a short period i was climbing almost eod and on the off days i was swimming riding and running for a total of 4 hours combined, on my tri days i would eat 50% carbs 30% protein and 20% fats carbs were mainly from pastas and fats from the sauces and avacados and my protien was either meat with the pasta or additional protien shakes with milk (my deit wasnt perfect but it was decent) and id need to be in a 500 cal surplus. climbing days id do more of a 40% protein 40% carbs and 20% fats (also alot of protein was from shakes as id drink them when climbing) and id usually eat in a 300 cal surplus as i didnt feel i really needed as much. Once you start doing this you will notice a huge difference in recovery, Unless bloodwork shows something that could indicate a reason for poor recovery.

 

[kronenberb]

hey thanks @RodgerThat. Ill try that macro breakdown and track it using the recommended aforementioned app. That's awesome that you used to climb. Did you ever try GW out of curiosity to see how it affected it? I think your diet is probably pretty similar. I eat a Mediterranean diet, lots of pasta and bread and rice. I made a bunch of porcini mushroom risotto last night and I'm going to eat a bunch more tonight. But seriously I do eat a lot. Today I ate a pretty big 6" sub and 4 pieces of fried chicken and dinner will be two full 10" plates of risotto (which is full of olive oil, butter, veggie stock and cheese, and mushrooms) and two pork chops. I definitely eat more when food is tasty. @ThE SiCkNeSs thanks for the recommendation I'll consider that duet plus maybe the GW. Anyone ever try anything for a rotor muscle injury like ostarine? I want a joint support that kicks! @Wunderpus you are probably right about me not eating quite enough, we'll see what that app says.

 

[RodgerThat]

When you live the extreme active lifestyle what seems like a lot to yourself probably is barely maintanence if that. You can never actually know unless you record it, I always under eat if I'm not recording it. And eat breakfast even if it's literally having a spoonful of oatmeal at a time and washin it down with water like a pill. Never tried gw but I notice your asking for a lot of different things and whatever you do choose I'd reccomend using only 1 thing so you know if there is complications what it is.

 

[Millard]

I've never been over 138lbs no matter how much I eat. Food goes right through me.

To state the obvious, it sounds like you're not eating enough, at all. I believe you could put on a whole lot of weight just by increasing your caloric intake as well as your protein consumption.

Realistically though, if he can't get a baseline diet dialed in to break 155 with test, then he's wasting his time on drugs in general.

Either way, accurate food logging is a required skill before starting AAS

If you have a smartphone, download My Fitness Pal app.

Bro, you really need to start eating more, I would wait to start a cycle.

I don't have much to add. You've received a lot of good advice and words of wisdom. The simple answer is 'eat more' and obsessive compulsive 'self-monitoring'. That will get you where you want to be.

Well, it's true but I like to self-experiment and there's a chance that messing with my hormones would actually make me feel a lot better and be able to recover faster and gain weight easier.

Yeah, that will work too. But why introduce the extra risks when optimizing diet/nutrition can achieve the same goals. As a performance athlete, even if you do decide to go the PED route. A foundation of proper nutrition + proper training makes everything work better.

Recommended reading:

• The Baseline Diet, Part 1: Meal Frequency, Caloric Intake and Water Intake
• The Baseline Diet, Part 2: Protein, Carbohydrates, and Fat
• Charting Progress on the Baseline Diet, Part 1
• 
  
• Charting Progress on the Baseline Diet Part II: Methods for Measuring Body Composition

Whatever you decide, let us know.