HGH sleep issues

[400degrees]

About a month in on ugl GH, 4iu every night before bed, 2hrs after dinner. First couple weeks it knocked me out all night. Past couple weeks I've been wide awake at 3am every night. Almost feels like a cortisol spike. Wondering if I should ride it out, switch to am, or if anyone has had the same experience or knows the possible science behind this regarding the gh interactions with prolactin, progesterone or adrenals.

 

[Jin23]

Yeah it did sort out. Thanks for asking.

I've got Hashimoto's and I am pretty sure the TRT/AAS exacerbated the issue (high TSH over 10 for a while; it was hard to control TSH once I started TRT with more standard T4 dosing). I now medicate with 336 mcg/day T4 and 12.5 mcg/day T3. The T4 amount is a whopping dose. Keeps my TSH stable at ~3.

Knock on wood but I haven't had any more AFIB incidents. Good learnings on the interplay of thyroid and AAS that I had to learn the hard way. AFIB can rear is head from being hypothyroid too, not just hyper.

336 mcg that's a fuck load. This brings your tsh down to the 1 - 1.5 range?

 

[readalot]

336 mcg that's a fuck load. This brings your tsh down to the 1 - 1.5 range?

No, about 3 (TSH) for the last year. Finally stable, although anytime I increase AAS dose I gotta check..

I am scared to find the dosing to bring my TSH down to 1, LOL. I tell myself 3 is better for longevity anyway.

 

[readalot]

Thanks for the response. I'm glad you've got it under control. From what I hear, it's really uncomfortable. My Mum is currently on the waiting list for an ablation, so fingers crossed that will sort it for her as it's been years now, and so far, they have just been doing cardioversions, which usually fail within a couple of months.

I hope she gets relief and a full solution soon. Sincerely.

I know it bothers some more than others but it was fucking miserable for me. Long story but it ended up sending me into vtach after I panicked (thanks nandrolone for all wonderful adrenergic overstimulation haha). Paramedics were coding me and about to hit me with adenosine, which is big no no I found out later. Something told me to just sit up and Valsalva and deep breaths and I was able to bring the vtach under control. Was later told I dodged a bullet! 240 quivering BPM does not feel good.

 

[Jin23]

No, about 3 (TSH) for the last year. Finally stable, although anytime I increase AAS dose I gotta check..

I am scared to find the dosing to bring my TSH down to 1, LOL. I tell myself 3 is better for longevity anyway.

Probably not as far away, maybe 380 - 400? You know TSH above 2.0 is positively corelated with serum cortisol levels? 1.5 does seem to be the optimal value to target for ...

 

[Ateam2023]

hgh should improve your sleep, try eating earlier

i disagree 100% ,

 

[readalot]

Probably not as far away, maybe 380 - 400? You know TSH above 2.0 is positively corelated with serum cortisol levels? 1.5 does seem to be the optimal value to target for ...

This would lead us into a fun discussion if you are game. My dose response is not well behaved at all and my autoimmune stuff most likely explains the poor absorption.

There is a nice paper that outlines method to model individual dose response for fT4 vs TSH. I spent some time tracking all my operating points and regimes over 10 years. The issue is I jump from one operating line to another when tracked over time. I'll also experience bursts of thyroid activity periodically as my body kills off my thyroid slowly. So I try to leave some room for that; hence my logic for setpoint of TSH = 3.

Your point about cortisol is a good one and we'll taken. If my TSH continues to behave I may try to fine tune more. So far just trying to ensure my heart stays in good spot. Thanks for the suggestion. The operating line stuff with thyroid would be a great thread. Academic but fun as hell to me.

 

[Lord Commander]

Yeah it did sort out. Thanks for asking.

I've got Hashimoto's and I am pretty sure the TRT/AAS exacerbated the issue (high TSH over 10 for a while; it was hard to control TSH once I started TRT with more standard T4 dosing). I now medicate with 336 mcg/day T4 and 12.5 mcg/day T3. The T4 amount is a whopping dose. Keeps my TSH stable at ~3.

Knock on wood but I haven't had any more AFIB incidents. Good learnings on the interplay of thyroid and AAS that I had to learn the hard way. AFIB can rear is head from being hypothyroid too, not just hyper.

You should probably use more T3 than T4 UNLESS you are already on GH. Clearly you do not have high enough T3 levels and that is why your TSH could be so high.

 

[readalot]

You should probably use more T3 than T4 UNLESS you are already on GH. Clearly you do not have high enough T3 levels and that is why your TSH could be so high.

Was on 150 mcg T4 / 50 mcg of T3 per day when I had AFIB issue. My fT3 was very high and TSH was above 10. So that's not it. Very complex subject matter. Adding more T3 won't always titrate your TSH, especially in deranged patients like me.

Always use at least physiologic ratio of T4 to T3 for treatment unless you know what you are doing.

I advise not to F with high dose T3. Recipe for disaster if you have arrythmia substrate present.

Currently my fT4 and fT3 are top 10 to 25 percentile in range and TSH is still just 3. Please tread carefully with thyroid stuff.

Yout heart has T4 receptors and stuff can and does go bad with T3 monotherapy or skewed T3/T4 treatment ratios.

 

[Lord Commander]

Was on 50 mcg of T3 per day when I had AFIB issue. My fT3 was very high and TSH was above 10.

I advise not to F with high dose T3. Recipe for disaster if you have arrythmia substrate present.

Currently my fT3 and fT3 are top 25 percentile in range and TSH is still just 3. Please tread carefully with thyroid stuff.

Yes i have subclinical hypothyroidism myself so i take 100mcg of T4 daily. Your case sounds weird. Is it common to have high TSH with high T3 with Hashimotos? Sounds like some negative feedback loop is not working correctly...

 

[readalot]

Yes i have subclinical hypothyroidism myself so i take 100mcg of T4 daily. Your case sounds weird. Is it common to have high TSH with high T3 with Hashimotos? Sounds like some negative feedback loop is not working correctly...

Sorry edited and added a bunch of stuff to that post. Yes, my Endos look at me funny. Interesting case I guess. For a while they tried to convince me I wasn't taking my meds everyday lol.

 

[Lord Commander]

GH promotes NREM2, REM and sleep fragmentation, especially in the second half of the night. This has been discussed here plenty of times. It's also not without impact on your HPA axis, which you are experiencing now as early awakening. GHRH is what promotes NREM3/4 (ie. deep sleep), so if you want better sleep and is taking GH mostly for "feeling better" (although 4iu is a large dose), then try CJC1295, the long acting GHRH analogue or maybe triptorelin. Otherwise pin your GH am, that will resolve your sleep issues. However, with only AM pinning, you wont get a night time GH bolus, which has it's importance for brain health and recovery ...

I would imagine CJC1295 no DAC is the best version here right before sleep? Not the long acting one?

 

[Jin23]

I would imagine CJC1295 no DAC is the best version here right before sleep? Not the long acting one?

Cjc1295 also promotes SWS but I can't draw a comparison between the two.

Tesamorelin, cjc1295 and modgrf 1 - 29 are the main candidates with which you'd want to experiment with. You'll get the most IGF1 elevation from cjc but I'm thinking it might not be the strongest in promoting SWS. However, the issue with mod grf is that it has a short half life of 30 minutes, so it's going to work only for the first couple of hours of sleep where your sleep is the deepest anyway.

Fyi, the correct nomenclature is Mod grf 1 - 29, there is no CJC1295 w/o DAC.

GRF, aka GHRH: 44 amino acids
GRF 1 -29, aka Sermorelin: 29 amino acids
Mod grf 1 - 29: The same 29 amino's but 3 of them have been modified in order to prolong the half life
CJC1295: mod grf 1 - 29 + DAC.

Stupid UGL's can't get this right for the past 20 years.

 

[Lord Commander]

Cjc1295 also promotes SWS but I can't draw a comparison between the two.

Tesamorelin, cjc1295 and modgrf 1 - 29 are the main candidates with which you'd want to experiment with. You'll get the most IGF1 elevation from cjc but I'm thinking it might not be the strongest in promoting SWS. However, the issue with mod grf is that it has a short half life of 30 minutes, so it's going to work only for the first couple of hours of sleep where your sleep is the deepest anyway.

Fyi, the correct nomenclature is Mod grf 1 - 29, there is no CJC1295 w/o DAC.

GRF, aka GHRH: 44 amino acids
GRF 1 -29, aka Sermorelin: 29 amino acids
Mod grf 1 - 29: The same 29 amino's but 3 of them have been modified in order to prolong the half life
CJC1295: mod grf 1 - 29 + DAC.

Stupid UGL's can't get this right for the past 20 years.

Which one you prefer personally to mix with HGH before bed?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

I hopped back on GH after many years, at 3IU injected ~1.5 hours prior to bedtime. I have been tracking my sleep for a year, so I can tell what changed.

- Sleep duration went down by 1 to 2 hours per night
- More deep sleep, and it is more continuous in the first ~3 hours of sleep, when the GH serum levels are the highest
- REM sleep took a big hit, roughly a 40% reduction since starting to take GH
- I almost always wake up after 3-5 hours of sleep and have trouble falling asleep again
- My resting heart rate during sleep increased by 20%, and my heart beats feel somewhat more forceful, particularly when I wake up during the night
- No daytime sleepiness. On the contrary, I feel wired most of the day
- OSA got worse, since my AutoPAP cranks up the pressure higher than it used to

Funny enough, in my 20s I could inject 10IU prior to bed and had no issues. My suspicion is that my thyroid hormones are in overdrive. Would also explain the insane fat loss I have had since starting the GH again (~ 2 weeks ago). I was lean to begin with, so I can see small changes in body fat and fullness.

In any case, I will continue to take the GH for a couple more weeks, but if my sleep does not improve, I will have to lower the dose or just drop it

 

[Benf15harp]

I hopped back on GH after many years, at 3IU injected ~1.5 hours prior to bedtime. I have been tracking my sleep for a year, so I can tell what changed.

- Sleep duration went down by 1 to 2 hours per night
- More deep sleep, and it is more continuous in the first ~3 hours of sleep, when the GH serum levels are the highest
- REM sleep took a big hit, roughly a 40% reduction since starting to take GH
- I almost always wake up after 3-5 hours of sleep and have trouble falling asleep again
- My resting heart rate during sleep increased by 20%, and my heart beats feel somewhat more forceful, particularly when I wake up during the night
- No daytime sleepiness. On the contrary, I feel wired most of the day
- OSA got worse, since my AutoPAP cranks up the pressure higher than it used to

Funny enough, in my 20s I could inject 10IU prior to bed and had no issues. My suspicion is that my thyroid hormones are in overdrive. Would also explain the insane fat loss I have had since starting the GH again (~ 2 weeks ago). I was lean to begin with, so I can see small changes in body fat and fullness.

In any case, I will continue to take the GH for a couple more weeks, but if my sleep does not improve, I will have to lower the dose or just drop it

Why wait 2 weeks? Obviously that dose is too high for you. Drop to 2ius and inject IM

 

[Lord Commander]

I hopped back on GH after many years, at 3IU injected ~1.5 hours prior to bedtime. I have been tracking my sleep for a year, so I can tell what changed.

- Sleep duration went down by 1 to 2 hours per night
- More deep sleep, and it is more continuous in the first ~3 hours of sleep, when the GH serum levels are the highest
- REM sleep took a big hit, roughly a 40% reduction since starting to take GH
- I almost always wake up after 3-5 hours of sleep and have trouble falling asleep again
- My resting heart rate during sleep increased by 20%, and my heart beats feel somewhat more forceful, particularly when I wake up during the night
- No daytime sleepiness. On the contrary, I feel wired most of the day
- OSA got worse, since my AutoPAP cranks up the pressure higher than it used to

Funny enough, in my 20s I could inject 10IU prior to bed and had no issues. My suspicion is that my thyroid hormones are in overdrive. Would also explain the insane fat loss I have had since starting the GH again (~ 2 weeks ago). I was lean to begin with, so I can see small changes in body fat and fullness.

In any case, I will continue to take the GH for a couple more weeks, but if my sleep does not improve, I will have to lower the dose or just drop it

Maybe we just need a beta blocker to counter the increased beta-adrenergic activity from higher fT3. Have you tried adding it?

 

[Lord Commander]

Why wait 2 weeks? Obviously that dose is too high for you. Drop to 2ius and inject IM

You think IM injection would make a difference?

 

[Benf15harp]

You think IM injection would make a difference?

Yes.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Why wait 2 weeks? Obviously that dose is too high for you. Drop to 2ius and inject IM

Despite the sleep disruptions, I'm sharp and productive at work. I have lots of energy and am wakeful all day. As long as it stays that way, I don't see any urgency in lowering the dose.

In fact, I hope that I will tolerate the current dose, and more, once my thyroid system has reached a new equilibrium.

 

[readalot]

my thyroid system

Blood work vs negative control without GH?