High hemoglobin - No access to venesection

[chocolateandjuice]

Hey guys,

So normally I do my bloods every 3 months, but this time it had been 6 months and my blood results shocked me a little bit.
I didn't go the normal route for my blood test, I was in the hospital for something unrelated but this was revealed to me by the treating doctor, and haven't yet received full blood test results. The doc didn't mention anything about HCT

So the reference range for Haemoglobin is 13 to 17g/dl, although the doctor told me it should really be around 14. My current Hgb is 19 +
I went to the blood donation service but they sent me walking as they don't accept blood with a higher Hgb than 17.9.

The feedback I tend to get from GP's here is: just come off testosterone and you'll be fine. To which I reply: but I'm hypogonadal and will get extreme depression and anxiety, to which the offered solution is : "we have SSRIs for that. "(happened 3 times now)

I've been on "TRT plus" for the last few months meaning: 150mg testosterone Cypionate per week + 60mg masteron to control estrogen. I've dropped the dose to 75mg/week and ditched the Masteron until I get this under control.
Anyone any suggestions as to quickly bring hemoglobin down without a venesection? or at least low enough so I can go to the blood donation clinic again? I was well hydrated so that wasn't the problem. Hemoglobin has come back this high in 5 subsequent blood tests taken over the course of the last 7 days.

 

[buck]

Ask your GP to write a script to get a therapeutic phlebotomy which will be 100% effective at lowering yout levels.. So you don't need to take drugs like SSRI's that are only 60% effective at best from my reading. If not then get a different GP that is interested in your health.

 

[t-time]

Stick a 16g needle in your arm and let a pint of blood out, very easy, google for better instructions.
If you ever decide to prioritize health and longevity 100mg/w test and no other drugs should be optimal for the majority of hypogonadism men.
I wish I could go back twenty years and follow my own advice.

 

[malfeasance]

Stick a 16g needle in your arm and let a pint of blood out, very easy, google for better instructions.
If you ever decide to prioritize health and longevity 100mg/w test and no other drugs should be optimal for the majority of hypogonadism men.
I wish I could go back twenty years and follow my own advice.

t-time, why do you wish you could go back twenty years? What happened?

chocolateandjuice, this is the answer. Drain it yourself.

 

[t-time]

Chronic heart failure (mild so far) and other health problems, years of 200mg/w testosterone was a contributing factor for sure. I may post with details looking for advice one day, but not on this thread.

 

[tangenial]

@chocolateandjuice are you in the US? Blood donation centers around me will only turn you away if hemoglobin is over 20.

 

[Hardcoreboy]

Doctors do not recommend donating blood if you use testosterone. Hemoglobin and hct come back as a higher value.

 

[chocolateandjuice]

@chocolateandjuice are you in the US? Blood donation centers around me will only turn you away if hemoglobin is over 20.

Based in Ireland

 

[chocolateandjuice]

Stick a 16g needle in your arm and let a pint of blood out, very easy, google for better instructions.
If you ever decide to prioritize health and longevity 100mg/w test and no other drugs should be optimal for the majority of hypogonadism men.
I wish I could go back twenty years and follow my own advice.

Usually I don't go over 150 a week, just periodically I bump it up a little bit but never over 250-260mg total.

I do a shit ton of cardio, mostly zone 2. I've dropped my dose to 25mg 3 times per week at the moment and closely monitoring blood pressure, resting heart rate etc. In a daily log.

 

[readalot]

Chronic heart failure (mild so far) and other health problems, years of 200mg/w testosterone was a contributing factor for sure. I may post with details looking for advice one day, but not on this thread.

Bless you Sir. Happy to speak with you about this on one of my threads. I spent the better part of the last 5 years of my life trying to raise awareness of the main concern pushing T supra and elevated Hct. It ain't clots. It's the long term wear and tear on your heart and heart failure.

 

[readalot]

Hey guys,

So normally I do my bloods every 3 months, but this time it had been 6 months and my blood results shocked me a little bit.
I didn't go the normal route for my blood test, I was in the hospital for something unrelated but this was revealed to me by the treating doctor, and haven't yet received full blood test results. The doc didn't mention anything about HCT

So the reference range for Haemoglobin is 13 to 17g/dl, although the doctor told me it should really be around 14. My current Hgb is 19 +
I went to the blood donation service but they sent me walking as they don't accept blood with a higher Hgb than 17.9.

The feedback I tend to get from GP's here is: just come off testosterone and you'll be fine. To which I reply: but I'm hypogonadal and will get extreme depression and anxiety, to which the offered solution is : "we have SSRIs for that. "(happened 3 times now)

I've been on "TRT plus" for the last few months meaning: 150mg testosterone Cypionate per week + 60mg masteron to control estrogen. I've dropped the dose to 75mg/week and ditched the Masteron until I get this under control.
Anyone any suggestions as to quickly bring hemoglobin down without a venesection? or at least low enough so I can go to the blood donation clinic again? I was well hydrated so that wasn't the problem. Hemoglobin has come back this high in 5 subsequent blood tests taken over the course of the last 7 days.

For years I thought I was limited to 120 to 150 mg/week TC in order to keep Hct under 51 (divide by 3 for Hgb roughly).

I have been taking 80 mg/d of aspirin and 10,000 fu of nattokinase daily for some clotting protection at higher Hct levels. There is also some scant literature that aspirin retards RBC production as well as its effects on platelets.

For a number of reasons I said f it and went to 200 mg/week of TC and stuck with aspirin and nattokinase. I was pleasantly surprised when CBC came back with Hct of 47 after 12 weeks at 200 mg/week. Baseline was 49 to 50 at the lower Test Cyp dosing.

Please also remember relative standard error on CBC Hct assay is about 1.5%. So if you took the same blood sample and measured Hct 10 times you may get differences between individual measurements of 1 to 2% easily

So for now I will continue the aspirin and nattokinase for some additional experiments.

In your particular case if you have no access to phlebotomy order then lower your dose for 8 weeks and well hydrate before next attempt at the local donation site. Your bladder should literally be ready to burst when you show up.

Once you get the blood dump reevaluate your plan. I don't donate at all anymore and it should not be part of your long term plan unless you want to do it for the altruism.

Also the irony of this post is not lost on me. For years I have warned against excess androgen use. For long term health please use MED of testosterone (50 to 100 mg/week TC equivalent) if you can. There are also so many other TRT options for those that aren't after the gainz (e.g., troches, Test creams to anus, Natesto all would minimize HPTA impact). But I understand this is a BB forum as @Type-IIx keeps trying to drill into my head.

I get it just don't fool yourself if you aren't ready for potential issues down the road. Most aren't ready when they hit and hit hard. Some will be fortunate and never have to deal with them. Roll the dice.

 

[readalot]

Still early for nattokinase research...

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

However as I highlighted elsewhere it is plasma viscosity that one must pay attention to along with Hct. Almost no one does nor do they measure whole blood viscosity over a range of shear rates. Hct + plasma viscosity largely determine whole blood viscosity.

10000 FU / day of natto may be near the threshold floor for therapeutic benefit from some reading.

Even I haven't tried it but there is a commercial lab where you can have your whole blood viscosity assessed at physiologically low and high shear rates. Would be instructive to try this and study dose response of natto and also asprin.

cRP/ESR have been identified as somewhat decent indicators for elevated plasma viscosity (more inflammation yields more plasma proteins).

Plasma viscosity: a forgotten variable - PubMed

Evaluation of plasma viscosity has been underutilized in the clinical practice. Plasma viscosity is determined by water-content and macromolecular components. Plasma is a highly concentrated protein solution, therefore weak protein-protein interactions can play a role that is not characterized...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Clinical laboratory measurement of serum, plasma, and blood viscosity - PubMed

This article discusses the fundamentals for measuring the viscosity of whole blood, serum, and plasma and its application to the diagnosis of hyperviscosity syndrome. We describe some of the terminology in the field, including relevant definitions, the different units of measure, and general...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serum vs. Plasma | Biology Dictionary

What is blood serum, what is blood plasma, and what are the key differences between these two blood components?

biologydictionary.net

 

[Inspired]

Chronic heart failure (mild so far) and other health problems, years of 200mg/w testosterone was a contributing factor for sure. I may post with details looking for advice one day, but not on this thread.

I doubt testosterone is a contributing factor to your heart issues. A lifetime of wrong or poor nutrition is very often the chief culprit, leading to mitochondrial dysfunction/structural changes, some reversible, some not. Have you looked at your copper intake? Copper deficiency is an easy cause of heart failure, but despite the proof and mountains of literature, your doctors are unlikely to ever mention it and probably don't even know about it.

 

[malfeasance]

Doctors do not recommend donating blood if you use testosterone. Hemoglobin and hct come back as a higher value.

Could you please explain this in a different way? I am not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

 

[chocolateandjuice]

I doubt testosterone is a contributing factor to your heart issues. A lifetime of wrong or poor nutrition is very often the chief culprit, leading to mitochondrial dysfunction/structural changes, some reversible, some not. Have you looked at your copper intake? Copper deficiency is an easy cause of heart failure, but despite the proof and mountains of literature, your doctors are unlikely to ever mention it and probably don't even know about it.

Well, left ventricular hypertrophy is definitely a risk associated with "high dose trt" and when a certain level is reached, your heart will basically fail.

 

[chocolateandjuice]

For years I thought I was limited to 120 to 150 mg/week TC in order to keep Hct under 51 (divide by 3 for Hgb roughly).

I have been taking 80 mg/d of aspirin and 10,000 fu of nattokinase daily for some clotting protection at higher Hct levels. There is also some scant literature that aspirin retards RBC production as well as its effects on platelets.

For a number of reasons I said f it and went to 200 mg/week of TC and stuck with aspirin and nattokinase. I was pleasantly surprised when CBC came back with Hct of 47 after 12 weeks at 200 mg/week. Baseline was 49 to 50 at the lower Test Cyp dosing.

Please also remember relative standard error on CBC Hct assay is about 1.5%. So if you took the same blood sample and measured Hct 10 times you may get differences between individual measurements of 1 to 2% easily

So for now I will continue the aspirin and nattokinase for some additional experiments.

In your particular case if you have no access to phlebotomy order then lower your dose for 8 weeks and well hydrate before next attempt at the local donation site. Your bladder should literally be ready to burst when you show up.

Once you get the blood dump reevaluate your plan. I don't donate at all anymore and it should not be part of your long term plan unless you want to do it for the altruism.

Also the irony of this post is not lost on me. For years I have warned against excess androgen use. For long term health please use MED of testosterone (50 to 100 mg/week TC equivalent) if you can. There are also so many other TRT options for those that aren't after the gainz (e.g., troches, Test creams to anus, Natesto all would minimize HPTA impact). But I understand this is a BB forum as @Type-IIx keeps trying to drill into my head.

I get it just don't fool yourself if you aren't ready for potential issues down the road. Most aren't ready when they hit and hit hard. Some will be fortunate and never have to deal with them. Roll the dice.

Yes, I think I will stay at 100mg for the foreseeable future and not a mg more.
big cycles are already a thing of the past, I'm quite happy with my physique and I can probably maintain it, or at least 95% of it with 100mg a week.

Thanks for the info, i've been looking at Nattokinase and been taking some aspirin along with high doses of EPA, DHA and ALA.

 

[readalot]

Well, left ventricular hypertrophy is definitely a risk associated with "high dose trt" and when a certain level is reached, your heart will basically fail.

See this is the Kinda stuff the TOT docs hide behind. When someone (not all) suffers a cardiovascular event there is no note on their heart saying TOT/androgen abuse was here (until they do the autopsy and find some myocardial fibrosis). Where are the bodies some ask? (ahem TOT Optimization channel on Gootube). Please don't listen to Rouzier and his elevated Hct is not only harmless but beneficial bullshit. Some truth up to a point but as a blanket statement it sucks the BIG one.

The effects of supraphysiogic testosterone use on cardiac tissue are pretty well known at this point. Will everyone suffer? No. But go in with your eyes open and understand the diverse response from person to person.

Thank you for posting @chocolateandjuice

To clarify...the Congress f'ed up scheduling AAS. They should not be controlled and left to Doctors to handle using their best clinical judgement. My bias. Huge mistake and we could have learned so much more. With that said when I run 200 mg/week of Test Cyp I must own up to the potential fact I am taking some time off my life in order to get stared at by all the dudes in the gym.

 

[Inspired]

Well, left ventricular hypertrophy is definitely a risk associated with "high dose trt" and when a certain level is reached, your heart will basically fail.

No, your heart won't "basically fail".

Once again, I doubt your TRT contributed to your heart issues.

Millions of people have heart failure, and most of them from unknown reasons. LVH is so common. You are blaming testosterone but I don't think you are right. Did you have uncontrolled high blood pressure for a long time?

 

[Hardcoreboy]

Could you please explain this in a different way? I am not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

Venesections are not recommended in steroid-induced erythrocytosis. However, erythrocytosis increases the risk of thromboembolic events.

It would be essential for the patient to stop using anabolic steroids, which usually corrects the erythrocytosis as well. If your own testicular function does not start after 6-12 months after stopping, then at your discretion you can start replacement treatment with e.g. Nebido injections, in which case the appropriate injection interval is usually 10-14 weeks....