RBC count still high

[bigMoJo]

Just out of curiosity, have you always been well hydrated before each blood test? I just got back my blood levels and my RBC and H&H were slightly elevated. I was definitely hydrated and I'm on the lowest dose of Test-C I have ever taken which I find odd. I read that grapefruit lowers RBC a lot so I will give that a try for next months blood work.

I get bloods done every month. These last 6 months, yes, fully hydrated. That has brought #'s down about 2-3 points. Last two bloods, crit at 57.5 (3 days between draw date and test) , and most recent at 55 (same day test). My baseline prior to AAS was 47. However, I'm learning that in addition to hydration, electrolyte "loading" is also necessary—something I'm also still looking into.

I researched regarding grapefruit, and there doesn't seem to be any definitive conclusions to effectiveness, save one thread here on Meso. My understanding is that GSE/Naringin (grapefruit's effective nutrient) is anecdotally effective, so I'm giving that a shot like you.

Supplementation for RBC,H&H is a new route for me, having phlebotomies prior without much impact. Hopefully, these supps can make a difference—there are many pieces of the puzzle still in progress—and I will of course share all data as it comes.

 

[BamaCrazy]

Th

Just out of curiosity, have you always been well hydrated before each blood test? I just got back my blood levels and my RBC and H&H were slightly elevated. I was definitely hydrated and I'm on the lowest dose of Test-C I have ever taken which I find odd. I read that grapefruit lowers RBC a lot so I will give that a try for next months blood work.

While I am now always very hydrated I really focused on drinking water and electrolytes the day before and the morning before these labs. If anything I wanted to rule that out the cause of high hematocrit/RBC. Luckily the numerous things I am doing seem to be helping.

 

[Tednacious]

How much GSE are you guys using?

 

[BamaCrazy]

How much GSE are you guys using?

I’m taking 300mg daily of the liquid GSE drops and 600mg daily of the GSE Naringin capsules.

 

[Avies48]

I’m taking 300mg daily of the liquid GSE drops and 600mg daily of the GSE Naringin capsules.

Wonder how it affects meds? Usually there are issues that affect meds surrounding consumption of grapefruit

 

[BamaCrazy]

Wonder how it affects meds? Usually there are issues that affect meds surrounding consumption of grapefruit

I looked into it first. Some of the statins are affected by grapefruit/GSE but Rosuvastatin is not. The same for BP meds. Some of the ARBs are but Telmisartan is not. But it’s a good idea to check first. There’s an enzyme in grapefruit that could either block absorption of your medication or could increase absorption throwing your dose off.

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/suppl/2012/11/26/cmaj.120951.DC1/grape-bailey-1-at.pdf

 

[Avies48]

I looked into it first. Some of the statins are affected by grapefruit/GSE but Rosuvastatin is not. The same for BP meds. Some of the ARBs are but Telmisartan is not. But it’s a good idea to check first. There’s an enzyme in grapefruit that could either block absorption of your medication or could increase absorption throwing your dose off.

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/suppl/2012/11/26/cmaj.120951.DC1/grape-bailey-1-at.pdf

Makes me wonder which enzyme tho… if its not in grapefruitseed extract or narinigin itself, then it shouldnt effect me, xanax and others are supposedly effected.

I did find a study where they drank 600 mlg of grapefruit and then took their xanax and it didnt effect them at all… i suppose u could cut ur meds in half and see how it would affect u… as it keeps ur levels either higher or lower depending on the enzymes associated

@Ghoul any incite???

 

[BamaCrazy]

Makes me wonder which enzyme tho… if its not in grapefruitseed extract or narinigin itself, then it shouldnt effect me, xanax and others are supposedly effected.

I did find a study where they drank 600 mlg of grapefruit and then took their xanax and it didnt effect them at all… i suppose u could cut ur meds in half and see how it would affect u… as it keeps ur levels either higher or lower depending on the enzymes associated

@Ghoul any incite???

I had it backwards. Grapefruit juice blocks an enzyme that metabolizes certain medications. But I cannot find what part of the juice does this and

“Many drugs are broken down (metabolized) with the help of a vital enzyme called CYP3A4 in the small intestine. Grapefruit juice can block the action of intestinal CYP3A4, so instead of being metabolized, more of the drug enters the blood and stays in the body longer. The result: too much drug in your body.

The amount of the CYP3A4 enzyme in the intestine varies from person to person. Some people have a lot of this enzyme and others just a little. So grapefruit juice may affect people differently even when they take the same drug.”

“Doctors are not sure which of the hundreds of chemicals in grapefruit are responsible. The leading candidate is furanocoumarin. It is also found in Seville (sour) oranges and tangelos; although these fruits have not been studied in detail, the guidelines for grapefruit should apply to them as well.”

And this article treats GSE the same as grapefruit juice.

Healthfully

Find your way to better health.

healthfully.com

 

[Avies48]

I had it backwards. Grapefruit juice blocks an enzyme that metabolizes certain medications. But I cannot find what part of the juice does this and

“Many drugs are broken down (metabolized) with the help of a vital enzyme called CYP3A4 in the small intestine. Grapefruit juice can block the action of intestinal CYP3A4, so instead of being metabolized, more of the drug enters the blood and stays in the body longer. The result: too much drug in your body.

The amount of the CYP3A4 enzyme in the intestine varies from person to person. Some people have a lot of this enzyme and others just a little. So grapefruit juice may affect people differently even when they take the same drug.”

“Doctors are not sure which of the hundreds of chemicals in grapefruit are responsible. The leading candidate is furanocoumarin. It is also found in Seville (sour) oranges and tangelos; although these fruits have not been studied in detail, the guidelines for grapefruit should apply to them as well.”

And this article treats GSE the same as grapefruit juice.

Healthfully

Find your way to better health.

healthfully.com

Yup thats the enzyme and yes its a bit nerve wracking.. thats why i try to steer people away from gse and all grapefruit type supps…

Enalapril and ip6 are supposed to work well as well as telmisartan in some cases…

 

[Deezznutzz]

Just take grapefruit 12 hours apart from meds. Also donating too much always throws off MCV...MCH...MCHC.

 

[Avies48]

Just take grapefruit 12 hours apart from meds. Also donating too much always throws off MCV...MCH...MCHC.

This was the plan but how much is the question and how long do certain doses stay in ones systems?.. thats the bigger question

 

[Bigdawg6]

Ok guys, just to follow up I went and donated again. About 3 months since my first post. Hemoglobin and HCT are well in range but not only did my rbc not change it’s actually higher.. lol. With that being said I did start the hemoflow product today that have supposedly worked for some people. I will get bloods in a month when I finish the bottle and be the test rat Im taking 150 test cyp and 200 masteron. Also 20 mg Dbol pre workout. I know the test is super low but anything over 200 sends my levels up. I know the iron is low, I got bloods 2 days after donating. Donating 5 times this year has got me in a deficent.

 

[Bigdawg6]

Received partial labs last night.

11/15
RBC 5.02 (Range 4.14-5.8)
Hemoglobin 15.8 (Range 13-17.7)
Hematocrit 48 (Range 37-51)
Total Test over 1,500

Levels before starting TRT+
RBC 5.18
Hemoglobin 16.2
Hematocrit 48.1

I have always had issues in the past so I’m pretty happy about these results.

You taking the hemoglobin split through the day or both at once?

 

[BamaCrazy]

You taking the hemoglobin split through the day or both at once?

The Hemo Flow? Both at once. I take a boat load of supplements after lunch every day. It’s a few hours after coffee and my morning meds/injections, and several hours before I take my nightly Telmisartan. I’m trying to put some distance in between the GSE supplements and my medications.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Ok guys, just to follow up I went and donated again. About 3 months since my first post. Hemoglobin and HCT are well in range but not only did my rbc not change it’s actually higher.. lol. With that being said I did start the hemoflow product today that have supposedly worked for some people. I will get bloods in a month when I finish the bottle and be the test rat Im taking 150 test cyp and 200 masteron. Also 20 mg Dbol pre workout. I know the test is super low but anything over 200 sends my levels up. I know the iron is low, I got bloods 2 days after donating. Donating 5 times this year has got me in a deficent.

I haven't looked at your first blood work...but your HCT is normal (good)

You have a bunch of new RBCs regenerating after donating blood. The fact that they are small (MCV) and hypochromic (MCHC) may suggest some iron deficiency. It can take up to 90 days for those parameters to normalize after donating blood.

I'd have to spend a second more looking at your info but honestly not seeing a concern with the high RBCs by themselves. That's just my quick opinion but I'll go back and read the rest of the thread

 

[strongsafety41]

I haven't looked at your first blood work...but your HCT is normal (good)

You have a bunch of new RBCs regenerating after donating blood. The fact that they are small (MCV) and hypochromic (MCHC) may suggest some iron deficiency. It can take up to 90 days for those parameters to normalize after donating blood.

I'd have to spend a second more looking at your info but honestly not seeing a concern with the high RBCs by themselves. That's just my quick opinion but I'll go back and read the rest of the thread

I think you nailed it. OP’s creating an issue when there was none by frequently donating. RBC’s are a by product of taking gear and frequently donating. The real issue is frequent blood letting causing anemia deficiency without anemia.

 

[Bigdawg6]

I haven't looked at your first blood work...but your HCT is normal (good)

You have a bunch of new RBCs regenerating after donating blood. The fact that they are small (MCV) and hypochromic (MCHC) may suggest some iron deficiency. It can take up to 90 days for those parameters to normalize after donating blood.

I'd have to spend a second more looking at your info but honestly not seeing a concern with the high RBCs by themselves. That's just my quick opinion but I'll go back and read the rest of the thread

I am on board with that. My first blood work was in range. My main question was that when I donate it doesn’t lower my RBC at all. Im done donating for a while due to iron deficiency. Thanks for the reply. My concern with starting this thread wasnt my HCT, it was the fact that I was donating and it wasn’t lowering my RBC at all.

 

[Bigdawg6]

The Hemo Flow? Both at once. I take a boat load of supplements after lunch every day. It’s a few hours after coffee and my morning meds/injections, and several hours before I take my nightly Telmisartan. I’m trying to put some distance in between the GSE supplements and my medications.

Gotcha. I was curious because the maker made a video saying he recommends splitting it through out the day to keep it more constantly in your system. Honestly I think either way is fine I was just curious. I doubt the half life is short enough to matter.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I am on board with that. My first blood work was in range. My main question was that when I donate it doesn’t lower my RBC at all. Im done donating for a while due to iron deficiency. Thanks for the reply. My concern with starting this thread wasnt my HCT, it was the fact that I was donating and it wasn’t lowering my RBC at all.

Yeah brother - I don't think the absolute RBC number is all that important (I MIGHT be a doctor...or not...but I'm definitely not your doctor...lol)

I didn't see you had the Ferritin number right there proving you've got low iron stores.

I can't think of a succinct way to explain it right now but your spleen and bone marrow are sitting around waiting to spit out a bunch of RBCs....whether they are ready for the big show or not (so a bunch of small, not fully mature RBCs are being spit out before their time trying to maintain balance but they don't carry oxygen very well)

Other possibilities:
- a machine can be tricked by abnormalities on red blood cells (so mis count)

- a bad blood draw

- some other blood disorder/abnormality. Id have to see more info and history to fully elucidate that. However, it would be swell to have a pathologist review your blood smear and make sure there is nothing else weird going on

In saying that, get a CBC done at your regular doc. They can easily order up a path review.

My suspicion is your just messing up the natural order of things with the frequent blood draws and supplements...if nothing else, I am confident donating more blood will NOT help your issue.

 

[Bigdawg6]

Yeah brother - I don't think the absolute RBC number is all that important (I MIGHT be a doctor...or not...but I'm definitely not your doctor...lol)

I didn't see you had the Ferritin number right there proving you've got low iron stores.

I can't think of a succinct way to explain it right now but your spleen and bone marrow are sitting around waiting to spit out a bunch of RBCs....whether they are ready for the big show or not (so a bunch of small, not fully mature RBCs are being spit out before their time trying to maintain balance but they don't carry oxygen very well)

Other possibilities:
- a machine can be tricked by abnormalities on red blood cells (so mis count)

- a bad blood draw

- some other blood disorder/abnormality. Id have to see more info and history to fully elucidate that. However, it would be swell to have a pathologist review your blood smear and make sure there is nothing else weird going on

In saying that, get a CBC done at your regular doc. They can easily order up a path review.

My suspicion is your just messing up the natural order of things with the frequent blood draws and supplements...if nothing else, I am confident donating more blood will NOT help your issue.

All the CBCS have been done by my doctor. She is not concerned about my red blood cell count since everything else is in range. I was not very concerned either, more so just curious as to how when other people donate, it drops there red blood cell count into range but doesn't effect mine at all. I need to do more cardio, and stay hydrated. I do know that.