High test vs low test low tren for mass?

[Exister0]

For an intermediate lifter, which cycle would most likely produce the most gains in terms of pure muscle gain and strength given training is dialed in along with a 500 calorie surplus 10-12 weeks.

300mg test prop p/w
300mg mast p/w

or

150mg test prop p/w
200mg tren ace p/w

Wouldn’t the results be similar in the end if you exclude water retention?

This is all hypothetical, of course experiences will differ per individual. But’s let’s pretend it’s two identical guys with same experience.

 

[jJjburton]

For an intermediate lifter, which cycle would most likely produce the most gains in terms of pure muscle gain and strength given training is dialed in along with a 500 calorie surplus 10-12 weeks.

300mg test prop p/w
300mg mast p/w

or

150mg test prop p/w
200mg tren ace p/w

Wouldn’t the results be similar in the end if you exclude water retention?

This is all hypothetical, of course experiences will differ per individual. But’s let’s pretend it’s two identical guys with same experience.

Tren

 

[Ryu82]

Tren

This...

 

[Exister0]

Tren

People often say tren isn’t as anabolic as test or deca and is best suited for cutting. On the other hand, there are those who hype tren up to be far superior to even test.

I know that tren alone without estradiol will be subpar compared to test, but given there is a test base, just how powerful is it in terms of building muscle? Is the anabolic rating of it being 3x more than test too good to be true?


From forums I’ve read thus far the consensus seems to be that deca or high test is king for mass. While bulking is apparently “impossible” on tren. I just can’t get my head around tren being able to break the laws of thermodynamics in terms of eating more than you burn to gain weight.

 

[jJjburton]

People often say tren isn’t as anabolic as test or deca and is best suited for cutting. On the other hand, there are those who hype tren up to be far superior to even test.

I know that tren alone without estradiol will be subpar compared to test, but given there is a test base, just how powerful is it in terms of building muscle? Is the anabolic rating of it being 3x more than test too good to be true?


From forums I’ve read thus far the consensus seems to be that deca or high test is king for mass. While bulking is apparently “impossible” on tren. I just can’t get my head around tren being able to break the laws of thermodynamics in terms of eating more than you burn to gain weight.

when i said tren, i meant test and tren. I just assumed test will always be a base, for every cycle.

so if you use the same amount of test at 500 mg, then. Going by original question, tren and test would be better then mast and test. if you can eat in a surplus on tren and adjust to even a higher surplus when needed, tren is going to gain you most muscle, more then any compound, easily. For mass deca/npp with test is the best.

but yes you need a test base allowing for other compounds to shine.

 

[Exister0]

Is 150-200mg as a test base sufficient?

 

[jJjburton]

Is 150-200mg as a test base sufficient?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[MFAAS]

Have you run a test cycle before? If not, I would recommend just starting out with a standard test blast for 12-16 weeks. No mast, no tren, nothing extra, just a nice big blast of testosterone.

Then once you're done with that, recover, then try playing around with the trenbologna.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

NEITHER!!

My 1st cycle was test 250 tren 400-700 late weeks as far as I remember I put on around 10kg while I lost some fat.
In general very different muscle to fat ratio.
Somehow I didn't get "bad" side effects
Except the weeks at 700 that I wasn't sleeping at night at all.
Changes was happening in the mirror every day etc.

Anyway whatever you run 1st cycle you will gain similar, just different look that the steroid of choice give.

My point is you need to use effective dosages.
That cycles you stated looks more like cruising. For some people it is for some it isn't.
Just use an effective dose for your bodyweight and your body composition.

I thinks these dosages won't do serious changes for an intermediate bodybuilder.
There are gonna be changes but they gonna stop before you're smiling on your mirror.

Dosages are in conjunction with bodyweight , height, muscle/fat ratio.

I believe that to use AAS you should be from a weight and above and some "good" muscle/fat ratio.
And if you're going to use, then use them correct.

Use them correctly to avoid side effects but also to GAIN because that's the 1st reason you got into the game.

Also yeah on tren with some high test and GH (it's iimportant gh or in general high igf1 numbers) you will gain very efficiently at a fast rate.

Test dose y tolerate
Tren dose y tolerate
masteron/proviron to eliminate any sides mental/physical
GH 2 shots am/pm
Maybe some low low dose sslin with gh shots something like 2iu just to help the pancreas.

That's one of the most efficient ways to skin the cut IME and as you progress you doing changes on protocols and try different things. Cause you can't run the same stack forever it won't be effective or you won't tolerate it anymore.

 

[Exister0]

NEITHER!!

My 1st cycle was test 250 tren 400-700 late weeks as far as I remember I put on around 10kg while I lost some fat.
In general very different muscle to fat ratio.
Somehow I didn't get "bad" side effects
Except the weeks at 700 that I wasn't sleeping at night at all.
Changes was happening in the mirror every day etc.

Anyway whatever you run 1st cycle you will gain similar, just different look that the steroid of choice give.

My point is you need to use effective dosages.
That cycles you stated looks more like cruising. For some people it is for some it isn't.
Just use an effective dose for your bodyweight and your body composition.

I thinks these dosages won't do serious changes for an intermediate bodybuilder.
There are gonna be changes but they gonna stop before you're smiling on your mirror.

Dosages are in conjunction with bodyweight , height, muscle/fat ratio.

I believe that to use AAS you should be from a weight and above and some "good" muscle/fat ratio.
And if you're going to use, then use them correct.

Use them correctly to avoid side effects but also to GAIN because that's the 1st reason you got into the game.

Also yeah on tren with some high test and GH (it's iimportant gh or in general high igf1 numbers) you will gain very efficiently at a fast rate.

Test dose y tolerate
Tren dose y tolerate
masteron/proviron to eliminate any sides mental/physical
GH 2 shots am/pm
Maybe some low low dose sslin with gh shots something like 2iu just to help the pancreas.

That's one of the most efficient ways to skin the cut IME and as you progress you doing changes on protocols and try different things. Cause you can't run the same stack forever it won't be effective or you won't tolerate it anymore.

I just look and feel better on trt dose test. I’ll take less size over an ugly bloated face with high bp. As for tren I figure it’s powerful enough to work at 200mg. I’ve ran 400-600 before and I just turned into a sleeper deprived American Psycho.

I figured with either cycle pushing me into supraphysiological hormone range I can certainly gain a decent without the added bloat especially around my face which bothers me a lot. I’m only 190lbs 12-13% bf.

 

[TrennedOutLunatic]

150mg test prop p/w
200mg tren ace p/w

 

[Spokeonawheel]

Tren works for me for a bulk because it makes me hungry af.

Food works for gaining lean mass. Plenty of high protein food and good sources of carbs. If you are eating a lot of chicken breast, tilapia, lean ground turkey, egg whites.. sweet potato, red potato, rice.... this kind of stuff. Well, you have to eat A LOT of it to reach 4K cals and above.

Tren makes me hungry. It works for me gaining lean mass. If tren does not make you hungry or presents any obstacle eating and digesting large quantities of food then it's gonna be shit for that purpose.

 

[Exister0]

I just look and feel better on trt dose test. I’ll take less size over an ugly bloated face with high bp. As for tren I figure it’s powerful enough to work at 200mg. I’ve ran 400-600 before and I just turned into a sleeper deprived American Psycho.

Tren works for me for a bulk because it makes me hungry af.

Food works for gaining lean mass. Plenty of high protein food and good sources of carbs. If you are eating a lot of chicken breast, tilapia, lean ground turkey, egg whites.. sweet potato, red potato, rice.... this kind of stuff. Well, you have to eat A LOT of it to reach 4K cals and above.

Tren makes me hungry. It works for me gaining lean mass. If tren does not make you hungry or presents any obstacle eating and digesting large quantities of food then it's gonna be shit for that purpose.

Absolutely, tren hasn’t affected my hunger in the slightest during my 3rd cycle which I gained 30lbs. I would run it higher but from past experience I just turn into mentally unstable, insecure jealous freak with constant sexual fantasies that keep me from sleeping at night. The lack of sleep itself gave my face a resemblance to emperor palatine. However the nutrient partitioning and dramatic gains lead me to giving it a second chance at a much lower dose.

 

[kastro]

I just dont see the point of running tren other than precontest.If you are not competing there are much better options for growing.Npp,Deca,test and var.Tren can cause some serious issues down the road.Test,Gh is a great combo for growth with minimal sides.

 

[Exister0]

I just dont see the point of running tren other than precontest.If you are not competing there are much better options for growing.Npp,Deca,test and var.Tren can cause some serious issues down the road.Test,Gh is a great combo for growth with minimal sides.

I would absolutely go with 300mg (won’t go any higher until I’m at least 220lbs) along with winstrol 50mg ed. I just don’t want to dose an ai to offset bloating as even with e2 within range test can cause a degree of bloating. I’ll admit my cycle last year of 350 tren with 500 test was accompanied with an excessive amount of calories whereas now I’ve become more disciplined with it in addition to consistent cardio. I just feel and look a lot better with test dosed 100-200mg pw.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

So you can use deca instead of test low test higher deca
Deca is just a smoother testosterone more tolerable less water retention
Less e2 problems
You'll grow steady and slow. If you can't tolerate high test or tren.

You can also run your stack
200test 200 tren and just add some dbols drols here and there. I would suggest MK677 but y seem to be too concerned about water retention .
You can also play with slin with gh , lot of ways to skin a cat.
Also y can use masteron/winstrol( low dosages) to keep some water off.
You should try npp if y don't want deca.

Also test npp var masteron
Very versatile side effect free stack.

But IME at 190lbs( that's around 90+kg if I'm not wrong )
At 90+kg one thing is for sure you don't grow at 400mg total aas.
Especially with 3 cycles under your belt.

Dosages are related to muscle/fat ratio, height, bw, tolerance and experience.

If you disagree make a log and let us see your progress on those dosages.

You don't go 150 test pw 200 tren pw try to gain size
You go 150 test eod 200 tren eod lol. (That dosages for me)

If you're afraid sides , water and steroids makes you paranoid etc then imo don't use them, you do more bad than good.

You could also try sarms and not poke yourself for nothing. I have heard they're pretty side and water retention free. I've never used them.
Maybe you'll gain more who knows try rad

With great diet and intense training I've never had problems with water.
If you're to concerned for real try something like Sam's.
Because most if not all injectables bring some water (some time more some time less but you seem to concerned with less too.)
That's why pre show we drop all injectables and we use orals.

 

[Exister0]

So you can use deca instead of test low test higher deca
Deca is just a smoother testosterone more tolerable less water retention
Less e2 problems
You'll grow steady and slow. If you can't tolerate high test or tren.

You can also run your stack
200test 200 tren and just add some dbols drols here and there. I would suggest MK677 but y seem to be too concerned about water retention .
You can also play with slin with gh , lot of ways to skin a cat.
Also y can use masteron/winstrol( low dosages) to keep some water off.
You should try npp if y don't want deca.

Also test npp var masteron
Very versatile side effect free stack.

But IME at 190lbs( that's around 90+kg if I'm not wrong )
At 90+kg one thing is for sure you don't grow at 400mg total aas.
Especially with 3 cycles under your belt.

Dosages are related to muscle/fat ratio, height, bw, tolerance and experience.

If you disagree make a log and let us see your progress on those dosages.

You don't go 150 test pw 200 tren pw try to gain size
You go 150 test eod 200 tren eod lol. (That dosages for me)

If you're afraid sides , water and steroids makes you paranoid etc then imo don't use them, you do more bad than good.

You could also try sarms and not poke yourself for nothing. I have heard they're pretty side and water retention free. I've never used them.
Maybe you'll gain more who knows try rad

With great diet and intense training I've never had problems with water.
If you're to concerned for real try something like Sam's.
Because most if not all injectables bring some water (some time more some time less but you seem to concerned with less too.)
That's why pre show we drop all injectables and we use orals.

Yeah the reason I was looking at tren specifically is due to having bought multiple vials a few months ago to cycle with. But at this point I might just leave them untouched as the insomnia and mental insanity is not worth it at higher doses.
Looks like I’ll have to buy some deca or npp, I don’t have any experience with either of those compounds so it’ll be interesting to see what happens. If I decide npp or deca what dose would you recommend? My goal for the next cycle is to simply gain 10-15lbs whilst staying around 12-14% bf.

Also, I already have months worth of winstrol, so could I use that in place of masteron just for staying dry?

Thinking about either going

300 test per week
50 winstrol ed

or

150 test pw
X dose of npp/deca
50 mg winstrol ed

 

[AlwaysHungry]

Yeah the reason I was looking at tren specifically is due to having bought multiple vials a few months ago to cycle with. But at this point I might just leave them untouched as the insomnia and mental insanity is not worth it at higher doses.
Looks like I’ll have to buy some deca or npp, I don’t have any experience with either of those compounds so it’ll be interesting to see what happens. If I decide npp or deca what dose would you recommend? My goal for the next cycle is to simply gain 10-15lbs whilst staying around 12-14% bf.

Also, I already have months worth of winstrol, so could I use that in place of masteron just for staying dry?

Thinking about either going

300 test per week
50 winstrol ed

or

150 test pw
X dose of npp/deca
50 mg winstrol ed

Yeah y can use winstrol instead of mast but low dose cause it's a lot more potent than mast and also toxic.
If your test is at 150mg , I would dose nandrolone at 400-450 MG and go from there as y progress.

You can play you can play with ratios to see what suits you the most.
But with your mentality I think Deca suits you the best.
Cause it's mass gainer with low water retention also side free brings nice fullness also with winstrol to offset the water is a nice look.
I use deca with winstrol very often and I love my look dry full.
More old school more Meaty look but still very dry

 

[FlyGuy3232]

Hands down I'd go with the Test and Mast.

You'll have low to zero sides.

You'll probably put on the same amount of actual lean muscle mass.

Your health markers will look better.

It is better for your long term health.

 

[Exister0]

Hands down I'd go with the Test and Mast.

You'll have low to zero sides.

You'll probably put on the same amount of actual lean muscle mass.

Your health markers will look better.

It is better for your long term health.

If I were to do that what’s the minimum effective dose of test you’d recommend? 300?