How does Trenbolone and Dianabol work synergistically?

[Deleted member 123722]

Heh, I'd actually enjoy that role if it was ever offered (doubtful). There's a lot of new information that's been accrued. Tangentially, I consider Chest Rockwell's treatise on growth hormone to be replete with major errors (perhaps the most inaccurate piece that exists on Meso).

I have been investigating synergy between AAS for some time and someone recently referred to Bill Roberts' early (we're talking circa 1998) works on class I & II compounds. He was lightyears ahead (conceptually), though he erred in not recognizing the discrete pathways and functions involved (e.g., glucocorticoid modulation), in specific classifications (e.g., classifying tren as a class I compound), failing to appreciate the number of hybrid compounds (e.g., he viewed stanozolol as a hybrid compound, but failed to recognize that the majority of AAS are hybrid compounds).

I'm reviewing his work presently.

Well is this your hobby, or are you someone who is involved in chemistry for a living?

 

[AbstractMind]

You don't want to completely tank your estrogen; it is actually necessary for muscle growth and other functions. From what I understand, some of the most dangerous things next to diuretics for bodybuilding are actually the AIs the guys use to dry out for the stage.

Correct ai’s are very neurotoxic

 

[Deleted member 123722]

Correct ai’s are very neurotoxic

yea, I was unaware of that, and once I found out they were, I dropped them completely. Fuck that shit lol.

 

[Type-IIx]

Have you guys arguing the merits and demerits of the extremes of crashed estrogens versus dramatically elevated estrogens considered that there may be an optimal region (i.e., inverted U-shaped curve) for absolute estrogen concentrations versus muscle, bone, and lipid benefits?

 

[Type-IIx]

See Article on distinguishing progestins, prolactin, and progestagenic androgens (e.g., Tren, MENT, Deca) & SERM vs. AI logic [by Type-IIx] for a minor intro to the practical side of estrogen management (including with respect to "19-nors")

 

[Type-IIx]

Well is this your hobby, or are you someone who is involved in chemistry for a living?

It's difficult to characterize this fairly, without some expounding on my life.

Before the fall of the Iron Curtain, I was behind the wire in East Germany/GDR working as an agent of the Crown Special Forces trained as a mercenary and educated in particle physics. J. Robert Oppenheimer and I were in correspondence at that time regarding my findings, posted on an early ARPANET bulletin board, regarding the quantum nature of computation and my belief in an application for impenetrable cryptographic systems. It was our hobby at the time.

Unbeknownst to me, some of my ideas were pilfered off (we were in a pre-Enigma time) by an early progenitor of what would become Bitcoin; an underling of mine, Satoshi Nakamoti, would go on to release this minor project of mine to the world.

Sometime later, my political masters at Westminster became concerned with a growing rebel movement in the Caucuses, in the city of Grozny, and off I went with my various passports, a briefcase with our nuclear codes, and of course, my sidearm - a diamond-studded revolver that I had won in combat after killing the elusive code-named Panther - in his Sierra Leonese jungle lair, where he clandestinely synthesized LSD as the sole producer on earth. John McAffee barely escaped with his life, my remaining only regret from combat.

In the Caucus mountains, I came under the tutelage of a practitioner by the name of D.B. Hammer, who led the Soviet sports programme, and together we developed training periodisation. Our laboratories whirred with centrifugal force towards the synthesis of perfect ergogenic compounds (pure anabolics without androgenicity; beta2 agonists that were immune to tachyphylaxis; myostatin inhibitors that induced hyperplastic effects rapidly in adults; and growth hormone receptor mimetics and secretagogues that have yet to be revealed to the world). Together, we ushered in the dominance of the Soviet system, while I worked as a double-agent to bring about the fall of the Iron Curtain without a single bullet being fired.

Eventually, my seed being strong and sewn wide among the beautiful women whose company I found so effortlessly, some of my children would go on to fame. A lass whose sugary-bosomed angelic figure curled up with my striated and chiseled Adonis physique under the spectacular moonlight and rolling hills of a redacted countryside whose operations within cannot be revealed for lack of diplomatic immunity (she'd soon, glumly, return to her husband in Austria) would find ecstasy in our warm embrace as my enormous throbbing manhood would bring her to climax repeatedly. Our love-child would go on to become a famously strapping man and governor of a coastal American state, but only after becoming famous for lifting weights and starring in many great films, such as Kindergarten Cop.

Eventually, some of the work that myself and D.B. Hammer would leak out, but most has remained hidden due to our cryptographic scheme. Many of those early manuscripts and research findings remain in my vault, gathering electronic dust.

The question remains - was it a hobby, or was it destiny?

 

[Deleted member 123722]

It's difficult to characterize this fairly, without some expounding on my life.

Before the fall of the Iron Curtain, I was behind the wire in East Germany/GDR working as an agent of the Crown Special Forces trained as a mercenary and educated in particle physics. J. Robert Oppenheimer and I were in correspondence at that time regarding my findings, posted on an early ARPANET bulletin board, regarding the quantum nature of computation and my belief in an application for impenetrable cryptographic systems. It was our hobby at the time.

Unbeknownst to me, some of my ideas were pilfered off (we were in a pre-Enigma time) by an early progenitor of what would become Bitcoin; an underling of mine, Satoshi Nakamoti, would go on to release this minor project of mine to the world.

Sometime later, my political masters at Westminster became concerned with a growing rebel movement in the Caucuses, in the city of Grozny, and off I went with my various passports, a briefcase with our nuclear codes, and of course, my sidearm - a diamond-studded revolver that I had won in combat after killing the elusive code-named Panther - in his Sierra Leonese jungle lair, where he clandestinely synthesized LSD as the sole producer on earth. John McAffee barely escaped with his life, my remaining only regret from combat.

In the Caucus mountains, I came under the tutelage of a practitioner by the name of D.B. Hammer, who led the Soviet sports programme, and together we developed training periodisation. Our laboratories whirred with centrifugal force towards the synthesis of perfect ergogenic compounds (pure anabolics without androgenicity; beta2 agonists that were immune to tachyphylaxis; myostatin inhibitors that induced hyperplastic effects rapidly in adults; and growth hormone receptor mimetics and secretagogues that have yet to be revealed to the world). Together, we ushered in the dominance of the Soviet system, while I worked as a double-agent to bring about the fall of the Iron Curtain without a single bullet being fired.

Eventually, my seed being strong and sewn wide among the beautiful women whose company I found so effortlessly, some of my children would go on to fame. A lass whose sugary-bosomed angelic figure curled up with my striated and chiseled Adonis physique under the spectacular moonlight and rolling hills of a redacted countryside whose operations within cannot be revealed for lack of diplomatic immunity (she'd soon, glumly, return to her husband in Austria) would find ecstasy in our warm embrace as my enormous throbbing manhood would bring her to climax repeatedly. Our love-child would go on to become a famously strapping man and governor of a coastal American state, but only after becoming famous for lifting weights and starring in many great films, such as Kindergarten Cop.

Eventually, some of the work that myself and D.B. Hammer would leak out, but most has remained hidden due to our cryptographic scheme. Many of those early manuscripts and research findings remain in my vault, gathering electronic dust.

The question remains - was it a hobby, or was it destiny?

big if true lol

 

[ar7353]

@Type-IIx, in reference to beta-2 agonists and tachyphylaxis, are there any ancillaries that can delay or reduce this?

Ketotifen comes to mind, often touted as an upregulator of beta receptors. However, I read your write up on clenbuterol where you explained that ketotifen inhibits cAMP. So even if beta upregulation occurs, it is still overshadowed by the fact it inhibits cAMP?

 

[Clyde]

I'm beginning to think possibly the total androgen to estrogen ratio is more important than monitoring plasma E2 levels looking for a magic number.

Keep in mind how much more potent DHT is as an androgen compared to T, in tissue other than muscle, where it's deactivated. I'm also thinking total androgen / E2 levels in plasma would not be an accurate representation of total androgens to E2 levels/ratio because T is mostly converted to DHT in the tissue, and used as needed, rather than in circulation.

I recently read DHT possible interferes with E2 transcription at the cellular level. A lot of interesting related info in Meet the Steroid Experts - MESO-Rx.

The variation in how well one handles E2 may be related to how efficiently 5A-R converts T to DHT in the breast tissue. Some men seem more biologically primed to get gyno, whereas others seem unaffected by very high E2 levels.

Unrelated but in women, breast size/volume is very much variable as well. It's not like small breasted women are any more masculine than a large breasted woman or have way lower E2 levels. It may be somewhat useful to think about this as mirroring the variation in mens sensitivity to E2 levels.

If you suffer gyno symptoms easily from a little too much E2, perhaps you carry the "large breasts if you were a female" genetic markers. And guys on the opposite end of the spectrum have the "small breast if female" genetic makeup.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx, in reference to beta-2 agonists and tachyphylaxis, are there any ancillaries that can delay or reduce this?

Ketotifen comes to mind, often touted as an upregulator of beta receptors. However, I read your write up on clenbuterol where you explained that ketotifen inhibits cAMP. So even if beta upregulation occurs, it is still overshadowed by the fact it inhibits cAMP?

That's correct, ketotifen's inhibiting cAMP renders it unusable. Similarly, glucocorticoids attenuate the downregulation of B2AR; but are muscle catabolic. As such, there are no known agents for our purposes that can ameliorate tachyphylaxis.

 

[Alistair7]

Correct ai’s are very neurotoxic

I have read this many times but the question is, are AI’s directly neurotoxic or neurotoxic as a result of lowering estrogen too much? If estrogen is kept in what is recognized as a healthy range while taking the AI is that really an issue

 

[Rido]

I have read this many times but the question is, are AI’s directly neurotoxic or neurotoxic as a result of lowering estrogen too much? If estrogen is kept in what is recognized as a healthy range while taking the AI is that really an issue

Yea. I was wondering about this. is this a repeated thing with no background?

That's like repeatedly saying that steroids are hard on your liver/kidneys but they leave out the responsible dosage part and proper monitoring

 

[ar7353]

That's correct, ketotifen's inhibiting cAMP renders it unusable. Similarly, glucocorticoids attenuate the downregulation of B2AR; but are muscle catabolic. As such, there are no known agents for our purposes that can ameliorate tachyphylaxis.

I just reread your article again. The part you quoted about ketotifen states that it inhibits cAMP phosphodiesterase. Doesn’t that mean quite the opposite of inhibiting cAMP? Please correct me if I’m missing something.

Also, I realize these articles are dated, but simply searching “ketotifen and beta receptors” yielded these abstracts which seem to support the idea that ketotifen improves beta receptor function. I feel like I’m missing something here.

Effects of ketotifen and clenbuterol on beta-adrenergic receptor functions of lymphocytes and on plasma TXB-2 levels of asthmatic patients - PubMed
Terbutaline-induced desensitization of human cardiac β2-adrenoceptor-mediated positive inotropic effects: attenuation by ketotifen
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0192056188900197

 

[Type-IIx]

I just reread your article again. The part you quoted about ketotifen states that it inhibits cAMP phosphodiesterase. Doesn’t that mean quite the opposite of inhibiting cAMP? Please correct me if I’m missing something.

Also, I realize these articles are dated, but simply searching “ketotifen and beta receptors” yielded these abstracts which seem to support the idea that ketotifen improves beta receptor function. I feel like I’m missing something here.

Effects of ketotifen and clenbuterol on beta-adrenergic receptor functions of lymphocytes and on plasma TXB-2 levels of asthmatic patients - PubMed
Terbutaline-induced desensitization of human cardiac β2-adrenoceptor-mediated positive inotropic effects: attenuation by ketotifen
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0192056188900197

I'll look into this within the next couple of days. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. At first glance, without even reading Abstracts you've linked to/cited, it's plausible. I will review.

 

[Astartes]

It's difficult to characterize this fairly, without some expounding on my life.

Before the fall of the Iron Curtain, I was behind the wire in East Germany/GDR working as an agent of the Crown Special Forces trained as a mercenary and educated in particle physics. J. Robert Oppenheimer and I were in correspondence at that time regarding my findings, posted on an early ARPANET bulletin board, regarding the quantum nature of computation and my belief in an application for impenetrable cryptographic systems. It was our hobby at the time.

Unbeknownst to me, some of my ideas were pilfered off (we were in a pre-Enigma time) by an early progenitor of what would become Bitcoin; an underling of mine, Satoshi Nakamoti, would go on to release this minor project of mine to the world.

Sometime later, my political masters at Westminster became concerned with a growing rebel movement in the Caucuses, in the city of Grozny, and off I went with my various passports, a briefcase with our nuclear codes, and of course, my sidearm - a diamond-studded revolver that I had won in combat after killing the elusive code-named Panther - in his Sierra Leonese jungle lair, where he clandestinely synthesized LSD as the sole producer on earth. John McAffee barely escaped with his life, my remaining only regret from combat.

In the Caucus mountains, I came under the tutelage of a practitioner by the name of D.B. Hammer, who led the Soviet sports programme, and together we developed training periodisation. Our laboratories whirred with centrifugal force towards the synthesis of perfect ergogenic compounds (pure anabolics without androgenicity; beta2 agonists that were immune to tachyphylaxis; myostatin inhibitors that induced hyperplastic effects rapidly in adults; and growth hormone receptor mimetics and secretagogues that have yet to be revealed to the world). Together, we ushered in the dominance of the Soviet system, while I worked as a double-agent to bring about the fall of the Iron Curtain without a single bullet being fired.

Eventually, my seed being strong and sewn wide among the beautiful women whose company I found so effortlessly, some of my children would go on to fame. A lass whose sugary-bosomed angelic figure curled up with my striated and chiseled Adonis physique under the spectacular moonlight and rolling hills of a redacted countryside whose operations within cannot be revealed for lack of diplomatic immunity (she'd soon, glumly, return to her husband in Austria) would find ecstasy in our warm embrace as my enormous throbbing manhood would bring her to climax repeatedly. Our love-child would go on to become a famously strapping man and governor of a coastal American state, but only after becoming famous for lifting weights and starring in many great films, such as Kindergarten Cop.

Eventually, some of the work that myself and D.B. Hammer would leak out, but most has remained hidden due to our cryptographic scheme. Many of those early manuscripts and research findings remain in my vault, gathering electronic dust.

The question remains - was it a hobby, or was it destiny?

My wife just gave me the oddest look as I literally burst out laughing in the car on the way home from the gym…. This… was funny…

 

[freakyjacked29]

I'll look into this within the next couple of days. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. At first glance, without even reading Abstracts you've linked to/cited, it's plausible. I will review.

What’s the update on this guys

 

[Type-IIx]

What’s the update on this guys

Addendum to Clenbuterol focus: Practical...

 

[Type-IIx]

It is unclear to this author whether the adjuvant use of ketotifen serves to enhance the long-term partitioning ("recomp") effects of clenbuterol. It [ketotifen combination], however, does likely promote more chronic ↑fat loss [by ↑lipolysis, ↓lipogenesis,↓FA synthesis, etc.]). Preservation or loss of the anabolic effects depends on the nature of myostatin cross-talk with β₂AR [i.e., whether downstream from cAMP]).

@freakyjacked29 here's the summary, boiled down to its conclusion on the matter of ketotifen & tachyphylaxis (desensitization of beta2 receptors).

 

[freakyjacked29]

@freakyjacked29 here's the summary, boiled down to its conclusion on the matter of ketotifen & tachyphylaxis (desensitization of beta2 receptors).

Could you say if cetirizine would be similar in the effects of lipolysis like ketotifen as they are basically the same

 

[freakyjacked29]

Or maybe cycle clen 2 on off as histamine blockage worsens insulin sensitivity and reduces recovery