HPTA restart after TRT.

[Kimpe]

I'm gonna make a log to monitor my progress.

I'm currently trying to quit TRT because of unresolved issues with heart palpitations, chest pains and intense migraines with aura.
I was on TRT for about 1,5 years, and switched to HCG on June 15 under my doctor's prescription.
It started with a huge dose of 5000iu 2x week to get the testies back running, and dose decreased during time. Currently I'm on 2500iu 2x week.

Here are some labs on HCG
July 7 (on 5000iu 2x week)
Total testosterone: 21,6nmol/l (8-29)

July 30 (on 2500iu EOD)
Total testosterone: 17,7nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 287pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30nmol/l (15-95)
E2: 0,15nmol/l (<0,15)
Ferritin: 53.6µg/l (28.0-370.0 )
Hgb: 156g/l (134-167)
HKR: 44,9% (39-50)

Aug 19
E2: 0.17nmol/l (<0.15)
Total testosterone: 16.5nmol/l (8-29).
SHBG: 28nmol/l (15-95)
Free testosterone: 274pmol/l (155-800)


My dr prescribed Tamoxifen to be taken after the hcg, and I already tried switching to it few weeks ago.
I felt absolutely horrible, and after 2 weeks I wanted to get labs done to see if it had started to work even a little bit.

My labs were almost zero.
Total testosterone 1.0 nmol/l (8-29)
SHBG: 32 nmol/l (15-95)
Free testosterone: 16 pmol/l (155-800)


Now I know 2 weeks is a short time, but still I think tamox should have started doing at least something since my balls were already fired up.

I hopped back on HCG and started to look for Clomiphene to add to my pct. Sadly it's extremely hard to get where I live.
Anyways I finally got some ugl clomid, which of course I cannot be sure is actual clomid.

My last HCG shot of 2500iu SQ was on September 29th.
Gonna start clomid today and hope it's legit, since I do not want to take the Tamoxifen again. It gave me horrible sides.

Current feeling: Like shit. Really tired.

 

[IrishJuice]

I'll be paying close attention to this. Best of luck

 

[Kimpe]

I'll be paying close attention to this. Best of luck

Thank you

 

[Roco Bama]

I'd recommend to stay on hcg monotherapy. hcg alone can be used as a TRT and you seem to respond better to it. clomid is even worse than tamoxifen when it comes to side effects

 

[Kimpe]

I'd recommend to stay on hcg monotherapy. hcg alone can be used as a TRT and you seem to respond better to it. clomid is even worse than tamoxifen when it comes to side effects

Interesting take. I actually thought of that option at one point, but hcg puts my estrogen over the range.
That wouldn't be a problem with a tiny pit of AI, but Valvira (National Supervisory Authority for Welfare and Health) has forbidden doctors to prescribe AI with TRT. It's pretty messed up.
Ps. Sure my estrogen isn't a lot over the range, but with lowish testosterone its too high IMO.

 

[he-man100]

Interesting take. I actually thought of that option at one point, but hcg puts my estrogen over the range.
That wouldn't be a problem with a tiny pit of AI, but Valvira (National Supervisory Authority for Welfare and Health) has forbidden doctors to prescribe AI with TRT. It's pretty messed up.
Ps. Sure my estrogen isn't a lot over the range, but with lowish testosterone its too high IMO.

You could try a lower dose of HCG with maybe more frequent injections. You might get about the same test levels with lower estrogen.

 

[Roco Bama]

Interesting take. I actually thought of that option at one point, but hcg puts my estrogen over the range.
That wouldn't be a problem with a tiny pit of AI, but Valvira (National Supervisory Authority for Welfare and Health) has forbidden doctors to prescribe AI with TRT. It's pretty messed up.
Ps. Sure my estrogen isn't a lot over the range, but with lowish testosterone its too high IMO.

You can easily source pharma grade AI from european sources ( look at the underground section). hcg has a half life of 2 days so you can't achieve stable blood levels unless you inject it daily.

 

[Kimpe]

You could try a lower dose of HCG with maybe more frequent injections. You might get about the same test levels with lower estrogen.

I might try that.
It's just that my T level has been worse every time I've lowered the hcg dose.
It kind of concerns me that my testies need a whopping 10 000iu per week to produce good level of testosterone.

 

[Kimpe]

You can easily source pharma grade AI from european sources ( look at the underground section). hcg has a half life of 2 days so you can't achieve stable blood levels unless you inject it daily.

The customs in my country are tight, and because of my job I can't risk getting busted from importing drugs.

 

[Kimpe]

It has been almost a week since my last HCG injection and so far I feel fine, then again I have no idea how long it takes for testosterone levels to drop after stopping HCG.

 

[Grab Bag]

I'm gonna make a log to monitor my progress.

I'm currently trying to quit TRT because of unresolved issues with heart palpitations, chest pains and intense migraines with aura.
I was on TRT for about 1,5 years, and switched to HCG on June 15 under my doctor's prescription.
It started with a huge dose of 5000iu 2x week to get the testies back running, and dose decreased during time. Currently I'm on 2500iu 2x week.

Here are some labs on HCG
July 7 (on 5000iu 2x week)
Total testosterone: 21,6nmol/l (8-29)

July 30 (on 2500iu EOD)
Total testosterone: 17,7nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 287pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30nmol/l (15-95)
E2: 0,15nmol/l (<0,15)
Ferritin: 53.6µg/l (28.0-370.0 )
Hgb: 156g/l (134-167)
HKR: 44,9% (39-50)

Aug 19
E2: 0.17nmol/l (<0.15)
Total testosterone: 16.5nmol/l (8-29).
SHBG: 28nmol/l (15-95)
Free testosterone: 274pmol/l (155-800)


My dr prescribed Tamoxifen to be taken after the hcg, and I already tried switching to it few weeks ago.
I felt absolutely horrible, and after 2 weeks I wanted to get labs done to see if it had started to work even a little bit.

My labs were almost zero.
Total testosterone 1.0 nmol/l (8-29)
SHBG: 32 nmol/l (15-95)
Free testosterone: 16 pmol/l (155-800)


Now I know 2 weeks is a short time, but still I think tamox should have started doing at least something since my balls were already fired up.

I hopped back on HCG and started to look for Clomiphene to add to my pct. Sadly it's extremely hard to get where I live.
Anyways I finally got some ugl clomid, which of course I cannot be sure is actual clomid.

My last HCG shot of 2500iu SQ was on September 29th.
Gonna start clomid today and hope it's legit, since I do not want to take the Tamoxifen again. It gave me horrible sides.

Current feeling: Like shit. Really tired.

Two weeks is jack shit brother. You were on the sauce for 1.5 years.
I went through this and succeeded but it took months of misery. You can recover, but if you’re going to bitch out after two weeks just give up now. You are going to need minimum 8 weeks on the serms, more like 12.

I used clomid and it was absolutely miserable but it worked. Ended up with higher TT at the end of my pct after over 2 years straight on trt.

Good luck and let me know if you want any help or insight on this. But don’t bother going down the path of recovery unless you have an iron will and you won’t bitch out based on not feeling good. Because that part is a guaranteed part of the process.

 

[Kimpe]

Two weeks is jack shit brother. You were on the sauce for 1.5 years.
I went through this and succeeded but it took months of misery. You can recover, but if you’re going to bitch out after two weeks just give up now. You are going to need minimum 8 weeks on the serms, more like 12.

I used clomid and it was absolutely miserable but it worked. Ended up with higher TT at the end of my pct after over 2 years straight on trt.

Good luck and let me know if you want any help or insight on this. But don’t bother going down the path of recovery unless you have an iron will and you won’t bitch out based on not feeling good. Because that part is a guaranteed part of the process.

Ah some tough love, I like it.
Youre absolutely right about wussing out with the tamox. I'm actually just sceptical if coming off is even possible, since I why would my low testosterone had changed somehow..
My other testicle is smaller which according to my doctor might be the problem, and could mean that I just honestly need TRT.
I would just love to be able to live without any medication.
I'll get some pharma grade clomiphene, and do a pct with it instead of tamox.
I used clomiphene few years ago after a cycle and felt fine on it, it was pharma grade. So I know I tolerate clomiphene a lot better than tamox.
Tamox made me feel borderline psychotic and think all kind of nasty thoughts. Even few weeks of that might be too much tbh.

Anyways, my doctor sent me to a fertility doctor because we are going to try to get my sperm better. The idea is to freeze some just in case, so I'll have that covered no matter what happens.
Sad news is that 3,5 months of HCG did almost nothing to improve my count.
The good news is that it's a short time, and I'm going to start HMG to get FSH.

I'll run the HMG with HCG for 3-4 months, get a new semen analysis, and hopefully freeze good quality sperm.
After that I'll try the clomiphene pct.

Ps. Holu crap HMG is some expensive stuff.

 

[Grab Bag]

Ah some tough love, I like it.
Youre absolutely right about wussing out with the tamox. I'm actually just sceptical if coming off is even possible, since I why would my low testosterone had changed somehow..
My other testicle is smaller which according to my doctor might be the problem, and could mean that I just honestly need TRT.
I would just love to be able to live without any medication.
I'll get some pharma grade clomiphene, and do a pct with it instead of tamox.
I used clomiphene few years ago after a cycle and felt fine on it, it was pharma grade. So I know I tolerate clomiphene a lot better than tamox.
Tamox made me feel borderline psychotic and think all kind of nasty thoughts. Even few weeks of that might be too much tbh.

Anyways, my doctor sent me to a fertility doctor because we are going to try to get my sperm better. The idea is to freeze some just in case, so I'll have that covered no matter what happens.
Sad news is that 3,5 months of HCG did almost nothing to improve my count.
The good news is that it's a short time, and I'm going to start HMG to get FSH.

I'll run the HMG with HCG for 3-4 months, get a new semen analysis, and hopefully freeze good quality sperm.
After that I'll try the clomiphene pct.

Ps. Holu crap HMG is some expensive stuff.

Good luck and please keep us updated on your journey.

It’s great news you are seeing a fertility doc rather than trying to do everything yourself. You got this, dude.

 

[The Terminator]

Ah some tough love, I like it.
Youre absolutely right about wussing out with the tamox. I'm actually just sceptical if coming off is even possible, since I why would my low testosterone had changed somehow..
My other testicle is smaller which according to my doctor might be the problem, and could mean that I just honestly need TRT.
I would just love to be able to live without any medication.
I'll get some pharma grade clomiphene, and do a pct with it instead of tamox.
I used clomiphene few years ago after a cycle and felt fine on it, it was pharma grade. So I know I tolerate clomiphene a lot better than tamox.
Tamox made me feel borderline psychotic and think all kind of nasty thoughts. Even few weeks of that might be too much tbh.

Anyways, my doctor sent me to a fertility doctor because we are going to try to get my sperm better. The idea is to freeze some just in case, so I'll have that covered no matter what happens.
Sad news is that 3,5 months of HCG did almost nothing to improve my count.
The good news is that it's a short time, and I'm going to start HMG to get FSH.

I'll run the HMG with HCG for 3-4 months, get a new semen analysis, and hopefully freeze good quality sperm.
After that I'll try the clomiphene pct.

Ps. Holu crap HMG is some expensive stuff.

It’s completely normal and most guys have one testicle that’s bigger, so unless the smaller one is really small then not really an issue. Also I’m not sure if it’s you or your dr that feels hopeless about little sperm improvement in 3.5 months but it takes about 90 days for spermatogenisis so 3 months would be the absolute minimum time to see improvement. I wouldn’t be too disappointed yet.

 

[Theworm]

Why did you go on trt in the first place?

I’ve done a ton of research on this and even experiments on my self to conclude that if you had low T before treatment, there’s almost zero chance of having normal values after trt especially being on it for so long.

Other thoughts, enclomiphene didnt give me much sides.
Lupron was the only thing that raised my LH
If I were you, I’d look into kisspeptin 10, raised LH etc, but I’ve been on it 16 days and my LH still zero.

I’m really about to accept reality and go on 2-300 mg test a week, I know it’s not smart but I feel damn good on it!

 

[Kimpe]

Good luck and please keep us updated on your journey.

It’s great news you are seeing a fertility doc rather than trying to do everything yourself. You got this, dude.

Thanks. Only problem is that the HMG is so goddamn expensive, that it's making me want to test a clomiphene pct before turning that card.
It's about 400e for a 1200iu vial, and the dose is 150iu 3x week.
So one vial will be enough for 8 doses. So it'll cost 800e during the first month.
Way, waaay too expensive lmao.

It’s completely normal and most guys have one testicle that’s bigger, so unless the smaller one is really small then not really an issue. Also I’m not sure if it’s you or your dr that feels hopeless about little sperm improvement in 3.5 months but it takes about 90 days for spermatogenisis so 3 months would be the absolute minimum time to see improvement. I wouldn’t be too disappointed yet.

True, 3,5 months is a short time. It's just that after 2 months my sperm count was around 5. This time it was 25.
The needed amount is at least 25 million if I remember correctly.

Why did you go on trt in the first place?

I’ve done a ton of research on this and even experiments on my self to conclude that if you had low T before treatment, there’s almost zero chance of having normal values after trt especially being on it for so long.

Other thoughts, enclomiphene didnt give me much sides.
Lupron was the only thing that raised my LH
If I were you, I’d look into kisspeptin 10, raised LH etc, but I’ve been on it 16 days and my LH still zero.

I’m really about to accept reality and go on 2-300 mg test a week, I know it’s not smart but I feel damn good on it!

I started because my testoserone was around 350ng/dl which I would be really happy to have natty now.
If I would go back in time, I would have not started TRT.

 

[Theworm]

You would feel good at 350?

IMO you’d be lucky to get back to 250-300 being suppressed so long

 

[Francois]

350ng/dl isn't all that bad actually. If you lose another 100 off that you start running into trouble.

Honestly you'll be back on trt eventually, so why not try to sort out your dosing so you don't experience sides.

Lets look at this from biological need for testosterone. Max daily production is 11mg in a normal healthy man. Most men probably produce half of that, so lets say 5-6mg/day. Lets multiply that times 7 days and we get about 50mg per week if we subtract the ester off that dose.

So trt is really not supposed to be dosed as high as it is for most men. If it's true trt, granted most of us feel better on higher doses, but this lower dose is enough androgen to keep you going and would be dirt cheap to maintain throughout your life.

Low androgens is risky, because we know DHT is closely related to cognitive function in men. Estrogen is as well. If you suffer from brain fog because of low androgens(something that hits later in life around 40) it can really screw up your life. Look at Joe Biden if you want to see what low androgens looks like.....it ain't pretty.

Dilute your oil with sterile oil and use frequent injections to imitate what your body naturally does. Most test injections have a 24-36hr peak and then gradual fall, the goal is to get rid of the peak and keep it a low stable value all the time. Could try T-Undecanoate, I don't much like it, but small injections of this frequently could get rid of your heart issues.

 

[Grab Bag]

You would feel good at 350?

IMO you’d be lucky to get back to 250-300 being suppressed so long

I must disagree from personal experience. I got in trt at around 320ish, spent a few years on, made some healthier lifestyle choices, did a full pct, and within a year was up at 420 fully natty.

There are no exact rules to this, the endocrine system is highly affected by lifestyle and stress.

 

[Grab Bag]

Thanks. Only problem is that the HMG is so goddamn expensive, that it's making me want to test a clomiphene pct before turning that card.
It's about 400e for a 1200iu vial, and the dose is 150iu 3x week.
So one vial will be enough for 8 doses. So it'll cost 800e during the first month.
Way, waaay too expensive lmao.


True, 3,5 months is a short time. It's just that after 2 months my sperm count was around 5. This time it was 25.
The needed amount is at least 25 million if I remember correctly.


I started because my testoserone was around 350ng/dl which I would be really happy to have natty now.
If I would go back in time, I would have not started TRT.

How long do you need to take the hmg for? 800 dollars seems like a small price to pay for fertility, if that’s your desired outcome?