HPTA restart after TRT.

[Kimpe]

How long do you need to take the hmg for? 800 dollars seems like a small price to pay for fertility, if that’s your desired outcome?

3-4 months, but the price is making me want to see if clomiphene works for me first.
After all I have already used it in the past and felt fine on it.
The best outcome would be to not need any meds at all.

Ps. Kind of off topic but since I just binge watched Friends, is your nickname inspired from Paul Rudd's character's "crap bag" name change? It just reminds me of it and I highly enjoy it haha.

 

[Theworm]

I must disagree from personal experience. I got in trt at around 320ish, spent a few years on, made some healthier lifestyle choices, did a full pct, and within a year was up at 420 fully natty.

There are no exact rules to this, the endocrine system is highly affected by lifestyle and stress.

Definitely exemptions to every rule. Not many go on test for years to come off and have higher levels (unless they fixed underlying issues, obesity, narcotic etc)

 

[he-man100]

Thanks. Only problem is that the HMG is so goddamn expensive, that it's making me want to test a clomiphene pct before turning that card.
It's about 400e for a 1200iu vial, and the dose is 150iu 3x week.
So one vial will be enough for 8 doses. So it'll cost 800e during the first month.
Way, waaay too expensive lmao.

The general dosage range for HMG is 75 to 150 iu 2 to 3x week so you could probably cut the cost in half if you deside to use it

 

[Grab Bag]

Definitely exemptions to every rule. Not many go on test for years to come off and have higher levels (unless they fixed underlying issues, obesity, narcotic etc)

Completely agree with you. I had been coming off of a back surgery which led me to be quite sedentary at the previous level, which I’m sure was a large contributing factor.

You have any luck with your restart?

 

[Theworm]

Completely agree with you. I had been coming off of a back surgery which led me to be quite sedentary at the previous level, which I’m sure was a large contributing factor.

You have any luck with your restart?

Zero. I’ve tried them all, scaly pct, lupron and latest 16 days on kisspeptin and LH still zero.
Honestly, at 42, I feel like crap, I may just cruise on 300 mg test for a while and just feel good for a while

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Suffering is shit. Do what ever it is you need to do to make you feel good bro.

 

[Kimpe]

I just realized that HCG desensitization might be a real thing after all.
Ive tried quitting before too. I was using testosterone gel qt that time and went cold turkey, because that was how my former doc adviced me to do.

I took bloods after being only one week off just to see where I was at, and results were:
Testosterone: 3.4nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 51pmol/l (155-800)

I doubt any of that was testosterone gel at that point, so I was recovering better cold turkey after gel, than with tamoxifen after hcg.

I mean, what else could explain this than desensitization because of huge doses of hcg?

What do you guys think?
I'm currently waiting for a labmax kit to test my Clomiphene. If it's good to go I'll give it a shot.
I'm wondering if I should lower my hcg dose prior to that. Now I'm on 1250iu 3x week which is still pretty high, but not as high as the 2500iu EOD before that.

 

[flasspass123]

Definitely try the clomid. I felt way better on clomid than tamoxifen. Clomid raises test levels extremely fast as well.

 

[Kimpe]

Definitely try the clomid. I felt way better on clomid than tamoxifen. Clomid raises test levels extremely fast as well.

Will do.
I took clomid years ago too and felt fantastic compared to tamoxifen.

 

[Kimpe]

So a little update.
I'll start the HMG today, because my doctor thinks I should try to get my sperm count up and put some in the bank.
I totally agree with him, since if my restart doesn't turn out successful, I would have to start this process from the start. Now I've already been on HCG for over 4 months.

I will try the restart with clomid + maby nolva, after I've banked some sperm, if HMG + HCG therapy works.

Also, the fertility doc told me she will check my balls with an ultrasound if HMG doesn't work, so that's pretty good I guess. That should have been done years ago before starting TRT imo, but that was completely different doctor, who I am not seeing anymore.

So..
Step 1: Improve fertility with HMG + HCG to bank some sperm, just in case.
Step 2: PCT like a mofo.

 

[Kimpe]

Aw shit, I seem to get arrhythmias from HMG also.
Was able to start it this week, and today I had nasty arrhythmia. Goddamn.

If this continues, I'll have no choice but to quit even tho it's gonna suck.
Gonna have an appointment on Monday, and ask if doc could prescribe clomid for me to use when I initially come off.

 

[Jin23]

Bro, if you want to truly restart, you eventually need to get off of anything that suppresses natural LH and FSH production. This absolutely includes hcg and other similar hormones. Being on 5000 iu of hcg a week is going to suppress your natural LH. Btw, why aren't you testing for LH on your labs?

Either way, all serms will help in getting the pituitary to start producing LH. Tamox, torem, ralox, clomid, enclomid, etc. All will work. It just depends on which one you feel the least sides, that's all. And tbh, I know 2 weeks isn't a lot, but 2 weeks on nothing but a serm should start in raising your natural LH production. This is why you should be testing for LH so you can see if it's moving up, even if it's moving up a mm a day, you'll be able to see it. If there is very little or almost zero movement of LH in a month, imo you should start considering you are primary hypo gonadal which means you aren't able to produce LH and need to take either hcg or test for trt (or gnrh for that matter, but have no idea if that is ever done).

Check this guy out, has some sound advice:

 

[Kimpe]

Bro, if you want to truly restart, you eventually need to get off of anything that suppresses natural LH and FSH production. This absolutely includes hcg and other similar hormones. Being on 5000 iu of hcg a week is going to suppress your natural LH. Btw, why aren't you testing for LH on your labs?

Either way, all serms will help in getting the pituitary to start producing LH. Tamox, torem, ralox, clomid, enclomid, etc. All will work. It just depends on which one you feel the least sides, that's all. And tbh, I know 2 weeks isn't a lot, but 2 weeks on nothing but a serm should start in raising your natural LH production. This is why you should be testing for LH so you can see if it's moving up, even if it's moving up a mm a day, you'll be able to see it. If there is very little or almost zero movement of LH in a month, imo you should start considering you are primary hypo gonadal which means you aren't able to produce LH and need to take either hcg or test for trt (or gnrh for that matter, but have no idea if that is ever done).

Check this guy out, has some sound advice:

Good post, thanks man.
I definitely should have gotten LH tested while on tamoxifen.
I had a talk with my doctor and he told me he will prescribe clomiphene, which sounds relieving.
This HMG + HCG combo keeps giving me crazy heart arrhythmias, so I can't continue like this.
On another forum I was told that HCG can mess up your thyroid, which seems to be backed by some studies.
I got thyroid labs done today, and hopefully I'll get results tomorrow.

But yeah, this can't go on. I DO NOT want to risk getting another afib episode.

Issue with clomiphene is that they don't sell it where I live, and it could take up to 2 months to arrive.
I might have to just deal with tamoxifen sides if it takes too long.

 

[Kimpe]

Just got results for thyroid labs
TSH: 1,73mlU/l (0,4 - 4)
T4: 14,10pmol/l (10 - 21)
So I guess thyroid is not the problem.

 

[Jin23]

Good post, thanks man.
I definitely should have gotten LH tested while on tamoxifen.
I had a talk with my doctor and he told me he will prescribe clomiphene, which sounds relieving.
This HMG + HCG combo keeps giving me crazy heart arrhythmias, so I can't continue like this.
On another forum I was told that HCG can mess up your thyroid, which seems to be backed by some studies.
I got thyroid labs done today, and hopefully I'll get results tomorrow.

But yeah, this can't go on. I DO NOT want to risk getting another afib episode.

Issue with clomiphene is that they don't sell it where I live, and it could take up to 2 months to arrive.
I might have to just deal with tamoxifen sides if it takes too long.

Again, start checking LH.

Clomid vs tamox will make little or no difference in regards to LH. Also, clomid sides are fare worse then tamox. This is a well known fact. You can wait for clomid but if you are taking tamox in the mean time, you are essentially not missing out on anything. I would be really surprised if you had less sides on an equivalent dose of clomid compared to tamox.

Messing around with all off this you are surely offsetting your mineral balance and god knows what. All of this can lead to your symptoms. Also check DHEA, pregnenolone, etc.

Did you watch the video? Do not stop taking the serm. The serm is what is going to get you started. Hcg is keeping you suppressed.

 

[Kimpe]

Again, start checking LH.

Clomid vs tamox will make little or no difference in regards to LH. Also, clomid sides are fare worse then tamox. This is a well known fact. You can wait for clomid but if you are taking tamox in the mean time, you are essentially not missing out on anything. I would be really surprised if you had less sides on an equivalent dose of clomid compared to tamox.

Messing around with all off this you are surely offsetting your mineral balance and god knows what. All of this can lead to your symptoms. Also check DHEA, pregnenolone, etc.

Did you watch the video? Do not stop taking the serm. The serm is what is going to get you started. Hcg is keeping you suppressed.

I've done clomid at 25mg ED and felt way better on it than on tamox.
Then again the dose is probably not comparable, since wasn't 20mg of tamox equivalent to like 150mg clomid?

Maybe I could try just a low dose of 10mg tamox every day?
I mean it would be better than nothing.
There is no knowing when my clomiphene arrives, since I had to order it from a foreign pharmacy, and their customer service is just completely shit.

Hcg is giving me such a bad anxiety, brain fog and weird symptoms like numbness of fingers that I can't deal with hcg anymore.

 

[JP1979]

Two weeks is jack shit brother. You were on the sauce for 1.5 years.
I went through this and succeeded but it took months of misery. You can recover, but if you’re going to bitch out after two weeks just give up now. You are going to need minimum 8 weeks on the serms, more like 12.

I used clomid and it was absolutely miserable but it worked. Ended up with higher TT at the end of my pct after over 2 years straight on trt.

Good luck and let me know if you want any help or insight on this. But don’t bother going down the path of recovery unless you have an iron will and you won’t bitch out based on not feeling good. Because that part is a guaranteed part of the process.

What were your doses for clomid if you don’t mind me asking?

I’m on week 10 of my restart. 5 weeks clearance, 3 weeks HCg, second week of serm now.

 

[Kimpe]

What were your doses for clomid if you don’t mind me asking?

I’m on week 10 of my restart. 5 weeks clearance, 3 weeks HCg, second week of serm now.

Are you writing a log about your recovery journey?
I would be interested in hearing how it goes?

 

[JP1979]

Are you writing a log about your recovery journey?
I would be interested in hearing how it goes?

No log. Just plugging away at it, so far it hasn’t been as awful as I thought it would be. I have lost about 12/13lbs but that could be a combo of no test, upped cardio (for heart health) and diet changes.

 

[IrishJuice]

No log. Just plugging away at it, so far it hasn’t been as awful as I thought it would be. I have lost about 12/13lbs but that could be a combo of no test, upped cardio (for heart health) and diet changes.

How long where you on cycle for?