Interesting results on daily vs E3.5 day testosterone injections

[readalot]

SteroidPlotter cites that study in reaching their PK numbers.

I guess the steroid plotter guys can't read. From the paper:

The median post hoc half-life was calculated to be 4.05 days for tT.

 

[readalot]

@lift4lyfe

If you want to estimate the number from Table 2 in the paper:

For those who are struggling on TRT

I've been thinking about this thread lately. Any theories on why you seem to respond better on 1x week versus daily? I've read a number of accounts from med-high SHBG guys like you who do better on less frequent injections. I think it’s just the simple mechanism of the medication itself and...

www.excelmale.com

3.4 to 4.4 days.

 

[Benf15harp]

SteroidPlotter is for entertainment purposes only.

 

[lift4lyfe]

Theoretically, yes. In practice, not much...

https://forums.steroid.com/attachments/hormone-replacement-therapy-low-testosterone-treatment-anti-aging/168098d1488661137-1-2-life-testosterone-myth-injecting-every-2-weeks-better-t-cyp-kinetic-curve-2.png

Forgive me for not pulling this from original reference. Don't have that pdf handy at the moment. I am familiar with the figure though.

It seems Kurt heard us discussing the TE vs TC structure and how TC has a cyclic ring that decreases peak serum levels (i.e., low Cmax) and increases Tmax. Thus, Kurt says TC is not effective outside of TRT. Listen to what he says for a few minutes:


View: https://www.youtube.com/live/ssG11LLZptY?t=3629&si=sbdaG-nmv2QqtFJl

 

[readalot]

It seems Kurt heard us discussing the TE vs TC structure and how TC has a cyclic ring that decreases peak serum levels (i.e., low Cmax) and increases Tmax. Thus, Kurt says TC is not effective outside of TRT. Listen to what he says for a few minutes:


View: https://www.youtube.com/live/ssG11LLZptY?t=3629&si=sbdaG-nmv2QqtFJl

Thanks for sharing. I listened to it and respectfully it is silly. No offense to you. Nonsensical comments. He uses words such as chemistry and calculus like some of us gearheads don't grasp these concepts. In the limit of continuous infusion there can't be any difference in serum levels for TC vs TE corrected for %T in the ester. In practice, you just dose every day if you want stable blood levels. You can move Cavg by increasing dose. No magical differences between TE vs TC.

The Minto study is well covered on the forums but often misunderstood. AUC is similar for NPP vs ND (IIRC that study did have a difference in AUC for some of the sites/prodrug cases). You can see on that famous plot that NPP peaks higher then falls off faster for a single bolus Again, if you dosed NPP vs ND every day, no real difference on serum Nandrolone levels vs time. So not sure how Kurt is messing up these basic pharmacokinetic principles.

 

[lift4lyfe]

Thanks for sharing. I listened to it and respectfully it is silly. No offense to you. Nonsensical comments. He uses words such as chemistry and calculus like some of us gearheads don't grasp these concepts. In the limit of continuous infusion there can't be any difference in serum levels for TC vs TE corrected for %T in the ester. In practice, you just dose every day if you want stable blood levels. You can move Cavg by increasing dose. No magical differences between TE vs TC.

The Minto study is well covered on the forums but often misunderstood. AUC is similar for NPP vs ND (IIRC that study did have a difference in AUC for some of the sites/prodrug cases). You can see on that famous plot that NPP peaks higher then falls off faster for a single bolus Again, if you dosed NPP vs ND every day, no real difference on serum Nandrolone levels vs time. So not sure how Kurt is messing up these basic pharmacokinetic principles.

Appreciate the explanation.

They discuss the topic again here starting at 9 minutes
View: https://youtu.be/rJJZQdMcJiQ?si=vAzaR8DxRg4Z5W9R


They mention how the carbon ring could cause differences in certain people based on the shape and level of the enzyme that cleaves the ester.

 

[OldGHGuy]

Been preaching the brilliance of microdosing test Cyp daily for several years now. No comparison in other routines for me. I’m at 10-18mg per day of Cyp with a slin pin daily.

I am considering experimenting with switching from E3D to daily. What injection sites/rotation schedule are you using with slin pin daily?

 

[ineffectual]

Been preaching the brilliance of microdosing test Cyp daily for several years now. No comparison in other routines for me. I’m at 10-18mg per day of Cyp with a slin pin daily.

When you do blood work do you still pin that day? Before or after labs?

 

[Country Club Hero]

I am considering experimenting with switching from E3D to daily. What injection sites/rotation schedule are you using with slin pin daily?

I go upper quads and delts. Shallow IM with a 29g x 1/2” x 1cc

 

[OldGHGuy]

I go upper quads and delts. Shallow IM with a 29g x 1/2” x 1cc

I've been pure delts (with an occasional break doing old-school deep IM glutes) but if I switch to ED I will definitely need a good 2nd shallow location. Thank you

 

[laclark89]

I go upper quads and delts. Shallow IM with a 29g x 1/2” x 1cc

Is that a lure lock or are you able to draw with that? I can’t draw oil with my 30’s if my life depended on it, and I get a little sketched out for backloading.

 

[jtmarlin]

I am considering experimenting with switching from E3D to daily. What injection sites/rotation schedule are you using with slin pin daily?

Anywhere if the oil doesn't hurt. Delts, glute fat, glutes, quads, haven't done triceps but could probably do that. I don't even have a schedule I just pick whatever I feel like that day.

 

[jtmarlin]

Is that a lure lock or are you able to draw with that? I can’t draw oil with my 30’s if my life depended on it, and I get a little sketched out for backloading.

Use a 27 gauge half inch insulin syringe. The kind in the baggies. You can draw anything with that needle.

 

[egruberman]

Thus, Kurt says TC is not effective outside of TRT.

I like Kurt, but I have a hard time digesting this.

Is that a lure lock or are you able to draw with that? I can’t draw oil with my 30’s if my life depended on it, and I get a little sketched out for backloading.

Back loading takes a solid sterile practice and ideally a flow hood, which nobody is going to deal with. I use a vial spike to draw up and inject with a 27g daily. Using a fresh needle to inject is so much better.

 

[Ghoul]

Use a 27 gauge half inch insulin syringe. The kind in the baggies. You can draw anything with that needle.

Is that size what you also pinned e3.5 with?

 

[jtmarlin]

Is that size what you also pinned e3.5 with?

For TRT doses yes. .4 to .5 ml per shot. When I would cycle and pin e3.5d I would use a 23 gauge 1.-1.5 inch 3ml syringe.

 

[Ghoul]

For TRT doses yes. .4 to .5 ml per shot. When I would cycle and pin e3.5d I would use a 23 gauge 1.-1.5 inch 3ml syringe.

The dead space in a 3ml syringe is .1ml, with insulin syringes it's (near) zero.

You're effectively injecting, .2ml, or 20%-25% more Testosterone / week.

 

[ackmack78]

The dead space in a 3ml syringe is .1ml, with insulin syringes it's (near) zero.

You're effectively injecting, .2ml, or 20%-25% more Testosterone / week.

You can also pull some air in before doing your shot and end up with less wasted oil, but there's always going to be some. Twice a week pinning I don't even think it matters. Daily pinning you're wasting a bunch of oil unless you use insulin syringes

 

[Ghoul]

You can also pull some air in before doing your shot and end up with less wasted oil, but there's always going to be some. Twice a week pinning I don't even think it matters. Daily pinning you're wasting a bunch of oil unless you use insulin syringes

It's not about waste, but that a 25% jump in TRT dose is the reason for the increased T level, and not some miracle of daily sub-q pharmacokinetics.

 

[lift4lyfe]

I like Kurt, but I have a hard time digesting this.

I talked to Todd Lee about Kurt's hypothesis and conclusion about esters, and Todd says it's a load of horse shit and Kurt has no idea wtf he's talking about.

I guess it's TBD once Kurt releases any of his data (if that ever happens).