BazzBeat
Member
I will try to use 80 mg per day. I hope it will be done in 2 weeks
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
KingdomOfVar (source)
- Thread starter KingdomOfVar
- Start date
Broskie
Member
for PCT it's great.
For long term users who are looking to cycle and keep the boys alive to have children, taking clomid for extended periods of time is not well studied. Mostly retrospective studies that do questionnaires about peoples experiences with side effects and some bloodwork related to e2. Rember these studies are for hypogonadal men. Normal, non-steroid abusing hypogonadal men.
Side affects and body interactions change a lot when people have tren/test/mast and all that shit also thrown into the mix. And of course, the older you get, the less your body will tolerate over time. Fareston is just safer, at the cost of a little potency.
Broskie
Member
This is bad advice, but I have heard anecotaly that you can run exemestane for some period of time and see a reduction in gyno. But its only ever been tried when gyno symptoms begin to occur from PED use. Gyno from puberty will always stick around for the most part. The tissue that has grown has grown, and will never go away. Only shrink. Losing weight helps reduce the fat around the breast tissue, serms help reduce the size of the actual breast tissue.
Exemestane will take a hot steaming shit on your sex drive and mood. So I wouldnt reccomend other than to curb heavy tren/test use or people whoa re super sensitive to estrogen
BazzBeat
Member
so would it make sense to use raloxifene for me now? I am currently using the 125mg per week test to allow raloxifene to work well
Broskie
Member
Yes, just be aware of the mild rebound you might have once you stop taking it. Is your gyno pubertal or from drug use?
BazzBeat
Member
from this came from a high dosage test. having studied my body, I realized that I am sensitive to estradiol
Resurgence
New Member
I read the other posts after your original.
Is there a particular reason you're looking at specifically those two?
Toremifene and ralox do work, but the more studied to look into, exemestane, letro and anastrozole. Arimidex tends to work pretty fast as does letrozole. Nolvadex having it's toxic traits is one thing but has always proven effective in reduction and/or complete resolution. Not sure if you have tried those and that's why you were looking at ralox and torem only.
Some studies , at the time, had proven stacking an AI with a SERM can be a more effective first line treatment than trying them solo
Have you ever used any tren, deca, or similar compounds?
Broskie
Member
I would shy away from recomending letro. That compound is far too aggressive with estrogen reduction, well over 98+% reduction. Exemestane is also an irreversible aromatase inhibitor like letro but it wont absolutely trash your body like letro can. Reducing your estrogen down to less than 1-2% of baseline is horrible for your health.
Stick with Raloxifene at 60mg a day. Check this out:
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia - PubMed
Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
BazzBeat
Member
Thanks buddyStick with Raloxifene at 60mg a day. Check this out:
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia - PubMed
Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.
Resurgence
New Member
Well, he mentioned surgical removal or picking between 2 compounds. So if It was me, I'd be trying proven compounds to see if they are beneficial prior to resorting to surgery and dealing with that.
I've used letro, and exemestane numerous times, they work, and don't "trash" your body in short term therapeutic doses. Typically they're given to women with cancer for 2-5 year stints which is where most, if not all, the study information stems from. There is a reason why certain drugs fall in a first line and second line treatment category. 9/10 even if you get a mammaplasty, they're going to prescribe one of these drugs mentioned in your recovery phase to make sure the problem is gone. So not exploring all your options because of a temporary reduction of estrogen, when you've already willingly ingested, injected, a good amount of grey market, UGL, or second hand pharma drugs, risking not knowing fully what it is you've been taking and what it's going to do to your body, doesn't seem like much of an extra risk to take some pharma grade, studied, and repeatedly used gynecomastia reduction drugs. Doesn't make much sense when you think about it. You'll willingly order, and use some black market injectables and oral compounds, then when it comes to trying to correct a side effect the "possible temporary reduction in estrogen" is a deal breaker.
Also need to figure out the root cause of the gynecomastia to see which and what method of treatment would be best. Which is why I asked about tren, deca, etc. Because if that's the case he would need to be looking at other compounds as well.
Broskie
Member
Sorry, let me clarify. Letro as a compound intended to be run in a program to see a reduction in pubertal gyno as an adult is not the way to go unless you are one desperate motherfucker.
For gyno symptoms stemming from the onset of androgen use, yea you can definitely slam some letro or arimidex for a few days to kill what was brewing up in those nipples and then switch over to something lighter like a SERM or arimidex for the remainder of your cycle.
The problem I have with Letro is when its used long term. Letro is like tren on steroids for estrogen reduction.
Just because you feel ok on it for a while doesn't exclude the damage you cant see it doing to your cardiovascular system, especially when combined in an eviroment thats already MUCH too androgenic and unstable.
It’s a harm reduction forum, the mindset of “I already take grey market products, why not castrate my estrogen for a few weeks” is weird. The hormonal environment of a body on exogenous drugs is already tough. Look at getting the job done with the least residual damage as possible.
And god forbid you're a middle aged man with underwhelming cardiovascular genetics taking 3-4 week courses of letro over the years to try and get rid of your breasts because you cant afford surgery. You'll be meeting your maker a few years earlier then you needed to.
Just keep it in mind. That's all I want to say
BazzBeat
Member
yes guys. good discussion and most importantly we are here to give helpful advice. despite the fact that I have been using steroids for a very long time - I'm still glad to hear the opinion of other guys. I am 38 years old. and i use now only test, tren and npp. I am not sensitive to tren and npp. so I have no problems with prolactin. but the dosage of the test over 250 mg per week gives estrogen side effects - so I got gyno. Now I will try to use raloxifene for 2-3 weeks - and if it does not help, then I will find a specialist to remove the gyno.
Resurgence
New Member
Not sure where letro was designed to be ran as a method to remove PG, considering it's most common and "intended" use is hormone positive breast cancer in women. As is every AI/Serm used in this fashion.
See that's the hypocrisy of the "harm reduction" aspect. That itself is a strange mindset considering the basis. Also Ironically using the term, castration. Lol. Because you're chemically castrating yourself on AAS, in a sense. Destroy natural test, suppress sperm/semen, etc. Still got your nuts but they ain't doin much without HCG or Gonadorelin. Increased risk of hereditary prostate cancer, all sorts of fun stuff. Harm reduction yet proponents of using off market chemicals (you have no idea what's in it or how pure or sterile it is). So it's a bit hypocritical per se in terms of being against using proven pharmaceutical grade medication for an intended use. All this carry risks. Guys will use tren (not even designed for humans originally), full well knowing it's side effects, but then make a claim for how bad some AIs are, which, guess, you wouldn't be taking if you didn't risk the sides in the first place of the drugs that caused you to need a potent Ai/Serm. Short stints of drugs like letro, is a form of harm reduction. As is using any AI/Serm. Not sure where I mentioned, blast 2-3mg daily (ironically the dosage for the women with breast cancer) for a year, or anything along the lines of that, that would be overkill and not worth it at that point in avoiding surgery. I suggested it be "looked into".
For a surgical mammaplasty You'll have to come off any cycle or cruise you're on, go real low dose if you actually have TRT script, get put on an AI anyway, deal with recovery, scarring, muscle tissue missing if it's real bad, etc. Going to tank your hormone levels as it is. It's not about the few grand in cash lol. So yes in a sense, giving it a shot depending on how advanced the gynecomastia is, "could" be worth looking into. Typically if you've had it for longer than 2 years they won't suggest chemical methods anyway.
I'm not saying you're wrong. All drugs carry risks. It always seems that the disagreements tend to bear the most useful fruit for people to make decisions with. Appreciate the neutral response you gave earlier.
Resurgence
New Member
Hey man, wish you the best. Sucks your pretty sensitive to elevated estrogen in the grand scheme of things. I'd ask how long you've had it and how bad it is to try and be more helpful but I get the sense suggesting protocols and medications to reduce existing gynecomastia isn't falling in line with "harm reduction". I would give the raloxifene more time to work than 2-3 weeks. But that's just me. Hopefully you can find some pharmaceutical grade so you aren't potentially wasting your time.
No no, suggesting potential protocols for discussion is absolutely in line with harm reduction.
I think maybe your confusing recommending sources/spoonfeeding sources which is frowned upon.
But in this instance discussing potential dosages l/durations and combinations of drugs is exactly what this place is here for if you ask me.
Broskie
Member
Yea, if you want to draw a parallel you're castrating natural production and then REPLACING with exogenous testosterone. But with AIs you're not doing that. You are just eliminating without replacing anything exogenously. If you had balls that produced estrogen, taking Letro would be the same as cutting them off.
Letro was never intended for PG and I never said it was, if it seems like I was implying that then I apologize. Just another off label use the underground commonly uses, which is the topic of discussion here. Nobody here uses AIs for their approved and studied use cases. And lets be clear as well, any studies that follow efficacy and mortality are following women. I think we can agree the physiology isnt exactly 1:1 especially when we're talking about the hormones that precisely define our sex in the uterus.
When people dont want "bitch tits" in a community full of people with self image issues, you'll get people who will try a lot of things to avoid ruining their perception of their bodies. Including quickly "educating" themselves into a purchasing decision because they read estrogen was the cause and Letro is the strongest counter. Then they find themselves stuck on cycle with no money to make another purchase for a SERM and are too afraid of getting gyno so they ride their letro every other day for 6+ weeks until they can place and receive another order. Or if They're broke, people ride out the rest of their cycle and stay on letro the entire time because they have no other choice and cant bring themselves to cut their cycle short. It happens often enough to be a concern.
I view the harm reduction aspect of reccomending arimidex or aromasin to be the equivalent to telling a first time juicer they should just start with test instead of tren. If you have to pick between two poisons, you choose the lighter poison for the job, and thats the harm reduction. The best harm reduction in this case is to take nothing and see a therapist so you can finally love your body for what it is, but who here really does that? lol
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Broskie
Member
I have no problem with SERMS or the lighter AIs when someone feels compelled to find a solution to a problem they're having.
.
Here's an analogy. You're a dictator in a country. You're artificially increasing a subset of your population (estrogen) as a side affect of a new policy of yours (taking testosterone etc.). Your particular country is sensitive to this change (gyno), and you're experienceing side affects in certain areas of how your country runs. Do you then
A) Enact policy to reduce your problem by say 50-80% essentially balancing any imbalances that are causing issues.
or do you
B) Hire special forces to FUCKING EXTERMINATE 99% of your problematic population? (who mind you, still play a productive role in your country overall)
Go with Solution A first please.
Might want to go 2-3 months with Ralox. It’s not going to shrink overnight.
BazzBeat
Member
at the moment I use the test at a dosage of 125 mg per week and nothing else. and I will use only the test for a long time. as for tren, the version of hexa was created for people. and the difference is only in the half-life, that because of the long period of 14 days, it has fewer side effects for people. As for aromatase inhibitors, I used only anastrozole once in my life. I am against the use of these inhibitors. at the moment I want to try raloxifene for 1 month. If it doesn't help, I'll definitely delete gino. My gyno is about 7-8 months old. it disappears when I completely reduce the dosage of the test
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