Taking a drug so the body produces more T can not be called natural from my perspective. It is just a matter of what possible side effects one is willing to deal with as to what drug they choose. For my my drugs of choice are Testosterone and HCG. Others have different comfort zones.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Low-Dose Tamoxifen/Clomid long term
- Thread starter Sss23
- Start date
destined4gr8ness8
New Member
I am open to acknowledging what you are saying but please provide me some data or literature that supports it. A quick pubmed search can easily counter every argument you have made.
Also the majority of members on this forum that are on "TRT" do not have primary hypogonadism, it is secondary hypogonadism from prior testosterone/steroid use. This is basic physiology and only further shows the lack of understanding you have. Not to mention if they went through a protocol with clomid/enclomiphene and hcg they would more than likely recover physiologic T levels but more commonly once someone is on T they dont want to come off and it is easier to just go on TRT. That is completely fine if they prefer, but it is just that, personal preference not actual treatment of the underlying problem. My issue with your post is that you are sharing opinions, not facts. You are clearly in the group that favors TRT for low T, and that is fine. But that is not what OP was asking.
BigTomJ
Well-known Member
You clearly don't understand what I'm saying.
You yourself even acknowledge clomid/hcgs use as an attempt to regain natural baseline production.
Those regimen were never designed to be userls to maintain testosterone production indefinitely.
There's no opinion in the following statement. It is an objective fact.
True TRT to treat hypogonadism is healthier than taking a serm for the purpose of maintaining reasonable test levels.
Stimulating the hpga to get healthy endogenous testosterone production is a side effect of SERMS like clomid and enclo.
you still need to contest with the potentially catastrophic primary use. Blocking estrogen at the receptor.
That blocking is not going to be limited to breast tissue, its going to block estrogen all over the body.
CAN op take clomid/enclo and feel better for a short while and maintain fertility? Sure, maybe.
but the more advisable course of action, if looking for a long term solution, and regaining endogenous production has failed, would be trt with hcg ect to maintain fertility if that remained a concern.
destined4gr8ness8
New Member
I'm not arguing that true TRT is inferior to Clomid for long-term treatment of hypogonadism. In the individual who doesn't care about fertility, it will more than likely be more effective. But that's not the case here. OP wants to maintain fertility and have an improvement in mood, libido, and energy. If that is all he wants, clomid would be the recommendation by any urologist or endocrinologist he sees. Plenty of studies show it will do just that for people in his situation looking for those results. How is that so difficult to understand?
That statement is still opinion, not fact. TRT has a higher risk of negative side effects than clomid. Many on here including in this thread have brought up the risk of blood clots with clomid. There have been multiple studies comparing risk of clomid vs testosterone and the testosterone group was the higher risk group in all of them. In males, the most adverse estrogen blockade-related side effect would be decreased bone density seeing estrogen is protective. But once again there is literature showing 7-year follow-up and use of clomid with regular BMD testing that did not decrease. You can say all the hypotheticals you want but saying that testosterone is "healthier" than clomid is ridiculous.
OP wants to use clomid and nolva 1x/week to increase testosterone, which is a dog shit protocol. They didn't educate themself on what a simple protocol with SERMs would even look like. So how can anyone possibly think that recommending test which would also require proper HCG dosing, regular lab work, and estrogen control be a better solution for him than taking 25 mg of clomid ED to EOD? You can't
This is great, learning a lot.
Just to clarify, I’m well aware the once a week low-dose protocol is not at all standard. I know the typical dosage is much higher and generally for shorter periods. The reason for the low dose was to get to the lowest dose (to minimize sides) while I was still feeling an impact and bloods looked good. Potentially due to the long half life.
Just to clarify, I’m well aware the once a week low-dose protocol is not at all standard. I know the typical dosage is much higher and generally for shorter periods. The reason for the low dose was to get to the lowest dose (to minimize sides) while I was still feeling an impact and bloods looked good. Potentially due to the long half life.
benfrankparkway
Member
did you get bloodwork, what brand tongkat and fadogia?
I’ve been taking it 3-4 days a week around 10mg for a decade now. My eyesight has definitely gotten worse. Especially fun close reading and trying to adjust my eyes to something up close in the forefront. I also have a floater or 2 but I think that was from one of those gay ass sarms when they came out.
Hard to quantify how much nolva has affected my eyesight because I’ve also aged from 33-44. But my vision was absolutely perfect prior to using. Sucks too because otherwise it’s the perfect drug for its purpose for me. Doesn’t crush estrogen but keeps the nips n tits tiny.
Other than Jesus, I guess all good things must come to an end. Perhaps I will go back to Raloxifene. It doesn’t work quite as fast for me but it does make my hardened lumps extra tiny. I was one of those super fortunate ones that got hardened gyno from puberty. Lucky me. But I’ve never been fat so most people have never even noticed my gyno and I’m shirtless 7 months a year.
What’s the consensus on Ralox? 60mg a day seems like a lot but I don’t recall it doing anything under that amount.
I doubt the eye issues are from the Tamoxifen. You should try bromelain for the floaters. It seems like everyone's eyes change/get slightly worse between ages 30-45.
It's always good to take a lutein and zeaxanthin supplement too.
OmL
Well-known Member
My favourite part was when the guy said “ghrelin secretagogue for a cut, uhhh tokgkat ali and *random herb from random podcast*” and then Tom was like “No” and then the guy disliked his comment.
Hey man,
Floaters are really frustrating, I especially noticed them getting really bad when it was bright outdoors.
A personal anecdote; I noticed a significant reduction in floaters with TB500. I wasn’t taking it for that purpose but one day I realized I hadn’t seen a floater in a while.
Floaters did eventually come back after quite a while, but never as bad. I haven’t had TB for a year and a half.
Henchus maximus98736
Member
IME with clomid + tamoxifen long term, is painful.
Complete mind and well-being destruction.
Despite where them levels are at.
Complete mind and well-being destruction.
Despite where them levels are at.
Henchus maximus98736
Member
The ONLY natural and noticeable increase in testosterone is them heavy deadlifts bro. Oh and eggs.
Two sets that’s it.
Two sets that’s it.
skinnyfatboy
New Member
Is it? Compared to most SERMS it only been in use for a few years where as clomid and it's derivatives eg tamoxifen torem have been in medical use for over 50 years well torem since the 90s.Most people who use enclomiphene complain of most of the same side effects as Clomid when used long enough.
There are literally hundreds of medical studies and millions of users thru the years while enclomiphene has a handful of subpar studies and a very small user base to compare side effects.
UncleBuns
Well-known Member
First off I said I don't recommend you use any of those long-term. You're likely to have side effects and not achieve what you're hoping for with any of them.
Just because a drug is older doesn't mean that it's the best. Of course an older drug has more studies because it's been around longer so it's had more time to be studied. I completely disagree with you that enclomiphene has the same side effects as Clomid. You need to do more reading. Yes, and enclomiphene has less research because it's newer. How is there going to be a bunch of research on something that has not been around for a long time?
Either way, using any of these long-term is generally a bad idea. Some guys won't listen to reason though and they have to find out their own way. So go ahead and I bet you won't last 6 months and you'll realize that it's a terrible idea and you won't feel very good.
If you really want to avoid trt then just try HCG monotherapy. It's not as good as trt, but you're more likely to have good results long-term with HCG.
Clomid has two isomers. Enclomid is the isomer that does what clomid does while the other isomer causes side effects. Enclomid is clomid so it has been tried for many years
Henchus maximus98736
Member
Clomiphene is dangerous. Irrational behaviour far worse than AAS. Evidence does point to the zoclomid isomer.
skinnyfatboy
New Member
I agree bro regarding long term SERM use, disagree that enclo is any better than clomid etc the data and research lacking people just going on feels
Henchus maximus98736
Member
Shit bro. Sorry for sharing my feels.
Trying enclom this time round so I’ll experience that myself.
Trying enclom this time round so I’ll experience that myself.
skinnyfatboy
New Member
Nah it's not so simple but time will tell.
Similar threads
