Ment / test cycle and how much AI?

[Type-IIx]

You’re welcome, and it’s also interesting to note that the primobolan dose is just about half of the test dose (300mg/180mg), and yet the E2-lowering effect is still very significant for me. This is important because it is taken as common bro-knowledge across the internet that you run test-primo at a 1:1 ratio, with many even suggesting to run primo HIGHER than test. If I took this advice and did it myself, I would most certainly crash my E2.

Now the question is why it's doing this. To me, this is pretty remarkable.

It also somewhat contradicts Camerino (1975) in Structure and effects of anabolic steroids, where it's mentioned that Primo is less disruptive of estrogen's effects (in women at least).

 

[Jbagel132]

Now the question is why it's doing this. To me, this is pretty remarkable.

It also somewhat contradicts Camerino (1975) in Structure and effects of anabolic steroids, where it's mentioned that Primo is less disruptive of estrogen's effects (in women at least).

Not sure, sounds like I’m less versed on the studies than you are, but when I take into consideration those that say primo lowers E2 and match it up with my own blood work, it seems to check out, if anything even MORE so than what is said.

 

[Type-IIx]

Not sure, sounds like I’m less versed on the studies than you are, but when I take into consideration those that say primo lowers E2 and match it up with my own blood work, it seems to check out, if anything even MORE so than what is said.

You're the first guy to actually post these results that I've been able to come across. Someone promised me that JP's board had bloodwork results showing this, but he never came through with emailing me anything. The only other bloodwork results on Primo I've seen are here [300mg Test/300mg Primo] and here [500mg Primo/750 mg Test]. Obviously, not many guys actually post their bloodwork with Primo, and of course, it's not like I see everything in existence, just what I come across. So you're the first guy I've come across that's posted real bloodwork showing Primo lowering E2.

 

[Jbagel132]

You're the first guy to actually post these results that I've been able to come across. Someone promised me that JP's board had bloodwork results showing this, but he never came through with emailing me anything. The only other bloodwork results on Primo I've seen are here [300mg Test/300mg Primo] and here [500mg Primo/750 mg Test]. Obviously, not many guys actually post their bloodwork with Primo, and of course, it's not like I see everything in existence, just what I come across. So you're the first guy I've come across that's posted real bloodwork showing Primo lowering E2.

Here is bloodwork on 350mg Test C per week 400mg Primo E per week, no AI, pinning E3.5D, bloods drawn 10 hours after pinning:



This one is not as good because I messed up and chose the less precise testing for Total and Free T, but nonetheless we have a very low E2 result. It’s unfortunate that I didn’t get a sensitive test for Total T, but what we do know is it was over 1500 ng/dL, so way higher than the most recent bloodwork, and yet my E2 is just about the same.

 

[Type-IIx]

Here is bloodwork on 350mg Test C per week 400mg Primo E per week, no AI, pinning E3.5D, bloods drawn 10 hours after pinning:

View attachment 160377

This one is not as good because I messed up and chose the less precise testing for Total and Free T, but nonetheless we have a very low E2 result. It’s unfortunate that I didn’t get a sensitive test for Total T, but what we do know is it was over 1500 ng/dL, so way higher than the most recent bloodwork, and yet my E2 is just about the same.

Yeah, here there is perhaps some degree of cross-reactivity with methenolone and testosterone. Depends on assay. But the E2 results are consistent, for you, with primo in the mix it lowers serum E2 or abates the increase in serum E2 from testosterone/aromatization. Very cool.

Have you ever added primo when already on a test blast or anything? I just wonder how rapidly the effects on estrogens occurs for you, whether it's something fairly rapid or not.

 

[Jbagel132]

Yeah, here there is perhaps some degree of cross-reactivity with methenolone and testosterone. Depends on assay. But the E2 results are consistent, for you, with primo in the mix it lowers serum E2 or abates the increase in serum E2 from testosterone/aromatization. Very cool.

Have you ever added primo when already on a test blast or anything? I just wonder how rapidly the effects on estrogens occurs for you, whether it's something fairly rapid or not.

I've not, but based on the blood work I have done, when running primo it is a battle for me to keep E2 HIGH enough. E2 in the low 20's, at least for me does not feel optimal. Low E2 sides such as achy knees, lethargy, and low libido all begin to manifest at this level for me, just not to the fullest extent. This is what has sparked my interest in MENT because I wouldn't mind running primo higher than 520mg/week, but even at that I will need to have test at 700-800mg per week, which is usually considered the max dose as far as effectiveness goes. So it would be more optimal if i could cut back the test to 600mg, up the primo to 600mg and add in low-dose MENT. From what I've read so far it sounds like MENT aromatizes heavily which would actually be perfect in my situation.

 

[GuerillaPete]

View: https://youtu.be/CStbri-s5gY

 

[sakuraba126]

I've not, but based on the blood work I have done, when running primo it is a battle for me to keep E2 HIGH enough. E2 in the low 20's, at least for me does not feel optimal. Low E2 sides such as achy knees, lethargy, and low libido all begin to manifest at this level for me, just not to the fullest extent. This is what has sparked my interest in MENT because I wouldn't mind running primo higher than 520mg/week, but even at that I will need to have test at 700-800mg per week, which is usually considered the max dose as far as effectiveness goes. So it would be more optimal if i could cut back the test to 600mg, up the primo to 600mg and add in low-dose MENT. From what I've read so far it sounds like MENT aromatizes heavily which would actually be perfect in my situation.

I'm in a similar boat. Just now running 350 eq with 425 test, ultrasensitive e2 came back crushed at... 10 pg. 1:1 testrimo is even stronger ai, e2 at 9 pg even at 700 mgs each.
I love dht (or its derivatives) and ment seems more suited to my goals than dbol as a way to keep e2 (or ch3-e2) in range whilst using higher dht doses. Interested in how this goes for you, think I'll be trying test and dhb first but would like to compare results/notes.
Haven't seen anything reliable about dhb's effect on e2, planned at starting 1:1 with test and titrating /assessing from there.

 

[MFAAS]

I wonder if primo would have any lowering effects with methylestrogen from MENT or maybe DBOL? I realize it is pretty pointless to hypothesize about it right now given essentially zero information about the actual function(s) by which primo reduces e2.

To take this further. Would masteron, DHB, or any oral DHT derivatives possibly play the same role? If so, there could and seems likely that there would be different levels or strengths of effects based on the substance. I think this is really fascinating. I wish someone could study it further. Definitely would love to see more info about it. Even if it was just bloodbtests comparing test solo vs test with various DHT derivatives.

 

[MFAAS]

I'm in a similar boat. Just now running 350 eq with 425 test, ultrasensitive e2 came back crushed at... 10 pg. 1:1 testrimo is even stronger ai, e2 at 9 pg even at 700 mgs each.
I love dht (or its derivatives) and ment seems more suited to my goals than dbol as a way to keep e2 (or ch3-e2) in range whilst using higher dht doses. Interested in how this goes for you, think I'll be trying test and dhb first but would like to compare results/notes.
Haven't seen anything reliable about dhb's effect on e2, planned at starting 1:1 with test and titrating /assessing from there.

I'm going to be running MENT+ Mast P+DHB soon. It will be very interesting to see how my AI needs are effect vs just MENT+Mast P.

 

[Type-IIx]

I've not, but based on the blood work I have done, when running primo it is a battle for me to keep E2 HIGH enough. E2 in the low 20's, at least for me does not feel optimal. Low E2 sides such as achy knees, lethargy, and low libido all begin to manifest at this level for me, just not to the fullest extent. This is what has sparked my interest in MENT because I wouldn't mind running primo higher than 520mg/week, but even at that I will need to have test at 700-800mg per week, which is usually considered the max dose as far as effectiveness goes. So it would be more optimal if i could cut back the test to 600mg, up the primo to 600mg and add in low-dose MENT. From what I've read so far it sounds like MENT aromatizes heavily which would actually be perfect in my situation.

Do you have your HDL and LDL values for this Test+Primo (300mg/180mg) run also? Doesn't have to be an image, just what you report.

 

[Jbagel132]

Do you have your HDL and LDL values for this Test+Primo (300mg/180mg) run also? Doesn't have to be an image, just what you report.

To be transparent, I am also running 40mg/day of Accutane, so not sure how much that is negatively impacting these numbers, but it’s worth noting.

 

[Jbagel132]

I wonder if primo would have any lowering effects with methylestrogen from MENT or maybe DBOL? I realize it is pretty pointless to hypothesize about it right now given essentially zero information about the actual function(s) by which primo reduces e2.

To take this further. Would masteron, DHB, or any oral DHT derivatives possibly play the same role? If so, there could and seems likely that there would be different levels or strengths of effects based on the substance. I think this is really fascinating. I wish someone could study it further. Definitely would love to see more info about it. Even if it was just bloodbtests comparing test solo vs test with various DHT derivatives.

Does this mean that MENT aromatizes more than testosterone? Or that the mechanism by which it increases E2 is different altogether?

If it aromatizes the same way testosterone does, just more so, then it would be fair to say that if primo is inhibiting the aromatization from test then it would also do the same with MENT. That’s what I’m looking to learn.

 

[Type-IIx]

View attachment 160429View attachment 160430

To be transparent, I am also running 40mg/day of Accutane, so not sure how much that is negatively impacting these numbers, but it’s worth noting.

Evidence of only mild effects on lipids too, damn great.

 

[Type-IIx]

Does this mean that MENT aromatizes more than testosterone? Or that the mechanism by which it increases E2 is different altogether?

If it aromatizes the same way testosterone does, just more so, then it would be fair to say that if primo is inhibiting the aromatization from test then it would also do the same with MENT. That’s what I’m looking to learn.

Yes. Check out my MENT Profile. I also try to approximate a continuum of aromatization here:

MENT, gyno, dialing in E2 with estradiol... or something better?​

 

[MFAAS]

Does this mean that MENT aromatizes more than testosterone? Or that the mechanism by which it increases E2 is different altogether?

If it aromatizes the same way testosterone does, just more so, then it would be fair to say that if primo is inhibiting the aromatization from test then it would also do the same with MENT. That’s what I’m looking to learn.

It is indeed metabolized by aromatase, just into much stronger estrogen receptor agonist (a form of methylestrogen). The question is whether primo has direct effect on aromatase levels or there is something else going on here.

 

[Jbagel132]

Yes. Check out my MENT Profile. I also try to approximate a continuum of aromatization here:

MENT, gyno, dialing in E2 with estradiol... or something better?​

So MENT aromatizes 1.4x as much as Test?

 

[Type-IIx]

So MENT aromatizes 1.4x as much as Test?

Yes, reducing assumptions about the unknowns involved in metabolism of the aromatic product of MENT.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Jfire132 have you thought much about your dose-response to Primo?

From what I've seen:
200mg test cyp weekly your E2 was 54.9 pg/mL (not indicative of being a low aromatizer) vs. at 300mg test e/180mg primo your E2 was 22.8 pg/mL.

With 350mg test cyp/400mg primo weekly your E2 was 22 pg/mL.

Do you think that perhaps the "ratio" concept is inapplicable? Perhaps Primo modulates serum E2 concentrations at a certain (lower) threshold, rather than crushes it linearly with dose increase?

 

[Jbagel132]

Yes, reducing assumptions about the unknowns involved in metabolism of the aromatic product of MENT.

In the recent bloodwork where test-primo was 1.67:1, my E2 was 21.8 but when test-primo was a ratio of 0.87:1 by E2 was 22. Shouldn’t it have been even less?