My introduction.....

[newbie23]

My method is Lose weight through diet and exercise unaided by TRT.

His method is to supplement with TRT first.

and lastly TRT is not meant for "losing weight" you need to do that regardless.

 

[newbie23]

Had idmd's problem been due to overconversion of T to E2 (obesity induced hypogonadism), then he could very easily had even less T than this, despite elevated E2; numbers like his are not particularly difficult to achieve from obesity induced hypogonadism.

this is perplexing to me lol I have no idea what you were trying to teach me here........ obviously if someone converts a bunch of there T to E than they would have less T.......................... since T is the raw material.............


and let me re iterate, its not ALL BOUT E WITH OBESITY!!!!!!

for one GH secretion plays a big role..... and not only does it stimulate T but it actually augments its effects!!!!!!!

 

[idmd]

Yes when someone has T levels of a 100 year old man I am very pro TRT, the damage done sitting at those levels is far worse than that of supplementation.

I am not trying to make you feel bad, and honestly could care less if you ever get on TRT, the confusing part to me is here you are saying I'm hunky dory i don't use T but I could have swore that you already injected T??? what did I miss?

I am not calling you a tough guy cause you don't want to do TRT, I am calling you an idiot cause you keep asking these questions yet you the know the answer (or at least think you do) already..............[)]

Your logic with thinking that there are tons of people with problems that are on TRT is flawed from this forum, not this one in particular but forums in general. Peopl come to these forums WHEN THEY HAVE PROBLEMS........... Cause they are seeking answers................................for each 1 that has a problem there are 10 that feel fucking fantastic..............like myself :drooling:

You missed that I injected T twice based on the recommendation of a misguided internist BEFORE I educated myself on the topic and before finding an endo skilled in TRT.

Look my problem is adiposity. The solution is to reduce adiposity which I'm doing successfully and quickly. I don't know why you can't see that this is preferable to TRT? It solves my root problem as well as many others and allows me to live my life without injecting T. This IS the logical starting point and you're thick if you can't see that. There's nothing wrong with TRT IF you need it. Perhaps I will reduce my adiposity and find I'm still deficient and I need TRT.....maybe there is a primary component. But TRT is not the starting point....it's the end point for cases like mine.

As for calling me an idiot...I'm 33 and have a fantastic happy family life....I have multiple diplomas on the wall, a doctorate, I'm published in basic medical sciences twice, financially and professionally successful....if that makes me an idiot I'm one happy idiot.

Actually i think very few people truly knowledgable about hypogonadism could argue my assessment and approach to my problem is not very logical and pragmatic.

 

[newbie23]

You missed that I injected T twice based on the recommendation of a misguided internist BEFORE I educated myself on the topic and before finding an endo skilled in TRT.

Look my problem is adiposity. The solution is to reduce adiposity which I'm doing successfully and quickly. I don't know why you can't see that this is preferable to TRT? It solves my root problem as well as many others and allows me to live my life without injecting T. This IS the logical starting point and you're thick if you can't see that. There's nothing wrong with TRT IF you need it. Perhaps I will reduce my adiposity and find I'm still deficient and I need TRT.....maybe there is a primary component. But TRT is not the starting point....it's the end point for cases like mine.

As for calling me an idiot...I'm 33 and have a fantastic happy family life....I have multiple diplomas on the wall, a doctorate, I'm published in basic medical sciences twice, financially and professionally successful....if that makes me an idiot I'm one happy idiot.

Actually i think very few people truly knowledgable about hypogonadism could argue my assessment and approach to my problem is not very logical and pragmatic.

Maybe idiot was a harsh word cause I was in a hurry. how about braggart. my apologies for conveying that I think your an idiot in general, that is not what I meant.

The point I was trying to convey is you ask these questions and as soon as someone tells you there opinion you immediately dismiss it. This drives me nuts because you are close minded, yet have the audacity to attack HAN

Then in another thread I see you say "maybe people's expectations for TRT are too high"....... I want to say "you don't have the first clue about TRT cause your not even on it"

your problem is not "fat" it is multiple things. Your post's bother me because you talk down on others and form opinions on shit you don't have a clue about, you reek of newbie but talk like a seasoned veteran.

The reason why I can't see your "pragmatic solution" is because years of trashing your endocrine system is not going to be solved by losing some fat.

I can't even comment on your "skilled endo"

Why am I so for TRT?

Cause its not dangerous, its simple although everyone wants to make it complicated and if your that low on T then you need to supplement.

Does this mean you have to supplement forever? no it does not, but your "losing fat" does not change your body composition. Your gonna need testosterone to do that.

Visceral fat is nasty and I highly doubt you are shredding like you think, ever seen a real skinny guy with a big huge beer belly?

 

[Structure]

this is perplexing to me lol I have no idea what you were trying to teach me here........ obviously if someone converts a bunch of there T to E than they would have less T.......................... since T is the raw material.............


and let me re iterate, its not ALL BOUT E WITH OBESITY!!!!!!

for one GH secretion plays a big role..... and not only does it stimulate T but it actually augments its effects!!!!!!!

Not trying to teach you anything, just interested in preventing you from misinforming readers. Someone with obesity induced hypogonadism might come to the forum looking for answers and might mistakenly think that they don't have obesity induced hypogonadism because "...when you score under 200 its hard to have enough T to even make E." As I mentioned before, this is incorrect.

As far as your statements regarding obesity and idmd's condition goes: you're a bit late to the party. Maybe you haven't read the whole thread? I'll give you a quick summary:

- obesity induced hypogonadism was an initial guess since idmd was overweight by more than 100 lbs. However, he didn't have a good set of baseline tests, so no one knew for sure.
- once additional tests were done, it was apparent that his E2 wasn't that high, although it was still a bit high compared to his SHBG. His doctor aggressively pushed the obesity hypothesis for this reason, although not all agreed with him. However, all did agree that the root cause for his hypogonadism was unclear at this point.
- idmd opted to eliminate variables to increase the chances of obtaining a definitive diagnosis. Specifically, he opted to correct the thyroid imbalance, and lose the weight to see if the hypogonadism remained after both of these problems were corrected.
- if he is still hypogonadal after the weight loss, some additional tests can be done to determine if his testes or pituitary is the cause. TRT (or any other treatment that suppresses his HPT) will only make this testing more difficult and ambiguous.

 

[hardasnails1973]

If testing for gh deficiency, gh stimulation test is not an accurate test in.some one who is in a hypogonadal state

 

[newbie23]

also saw a comment that high E2 may be the cause of your lowT and I don't think so, although it is suppressive, when you score under 200 its hard to have enough T to even make E.

although it is possible.

This is a culmination of multiple factors..... not a singular.

No look what I said here, did I imply ever that it was not obesity induced Hypo?

Not trying to teach you anything, just interested in preventing you from misinforming readers. Someone with obesity induced hypogonadism might come to the forum looking for answers and might mistakenly think that they don't have obesity induced hypogonadism because "...when you score under 200 its hard to have enough T to even make E." As I mentioned before, this is incorrect.

This makes absolutely no sense, even if you agree Dr Scally. Somehow you have taken my words and managed to make it seem like I was implying that he did not have obesity induced Hypogonadism simply to make yourself look smart and that irritates me.

Thanks for trying to stop misinformation from going to the "new guy" even though I said it like 5 times that his LowT was caused by his obesity.

What I was trying to clarify is that it may not be due to his E, cause it seems like thats the only thing you know, what about his insulin being through the roof? Do you not realize that is actually more likely to suppress his T than high E? and THAT was very high as a matter of fact, so to re iterate what I said "it is a culmination of factors" not just high E suppressing his T.

as for the comment I am wrong about someone not having enough T to convert to E how exactly does that make any sense whatsoever, I am beginning to wonder if you have ever actually looked at a blood test. 9x out of 10 wether its obesity induced or not, when someone has really low T they also have super low E, cause they are not producing enough T to even make it. This may be hard for someone like you to understand because you are so hung up on high E inducing lowT. Its really not that hard to figure out though.

So what your telling me his obesity induced hypo has everything to do with E suppressing his T? Im here to tell you that is incorrect, that it most likely started with a carb enriched diet that left his insulin at peak for a much longer period of the day, starting a chain reaction beginning with lowering his GH and ending with increased adipose tissue, increasing his E and suppressing his T, not to meant ion about a dozen other things.

As far as being late to the party, yes I was, thats why I stated in the thread that I do not have time to look through the whole thing and that since smarty pants asked me to see if I could find his "underlying cause" , I took a look at his latest bloods, and guess what, insulin resistance hit me in the head like a ton of bricks.

Now you can sit here and jerk off to your articulate post's all day long going back and forth on what the issue is, trying to widdle it down to a singular event or hormone that put him in this position, well it is a culmination of shit that landed him here...................... not high E, and thats what I was pointing out. Not once did I EVER try to say it wasn't obesity induced.

As you guys put him through every test in the book to find out if you can rectify the problem, he could have done it much quicker by replacing his T for some months to correct BMI and then try to come off and see if it holds.

"OMG nancy dont do that you might suppress him with testosterone" well it doesn't really matter does it since he is already suppressed. Then maybe he could have done a restart and came back, all the time fixing his problem much quicker without danger, in my opinion less danger than leaving him with the T of a 50 year old woman for a year while you guys get your jollies off on doing it "all natural"

I live in the real world, not in cyber space, and if you did the same maybe you would realize that all this he said she said and this did that and that did this doesn't really fucking matter. The only thing that matters is getting his BMI down and then seeing if his little nuts will come back to form and I'm telling you there is a much faster way to do it...................how am I so sure? cause I have helped those do it multiple times................................ now please see if you can twist some of my words again to make yourself like you have the first clue on what it takes to ACTUALLY DO IT IN THE REAL WORLD.

I give results, not lets do six different things and then cross our fingers to see if it works............................I know what works...........thats the difference between experience and reading things on google

Now as you sit here and give this guy 1800 blood tests so you can learn a thing a 2 about him, I will have helped 10 guys achieve a better quality of life while simultaneously reducing his risk factors for disease.

 

[toolman]

No look what I said here, did I imply ever that it was not obesity induced Hypo?



This makes absolutely no sense, even if you agree Dr Scally. Somehow you have taken my words and managed to make it seem like I was implying that he did not have obesity induced Hypogonadism simply to make yourself look smart and that irritates me.

Thanks for trying to stop misinformation from going to the "new guy" even though I said it like 5 times that his LowT was caused by his obesity.

What I was trying to clarify is that it may not be due to his E, cause it seems like thats the only thing you know, what about his insulin being through the roof? Do you not realize that is actually more likely to suppress his T than high E? and THAT was very high as a matter of fact, so to re iterate what I said "it is a culmination of factors" not just high E suppressing his T.

as for the comment I am wrong about someone not having enough T to convert to E how exactly does that make any sense whatsoever, I am beginning to wonder if you have ever actually looked at a blood test. 9x out of 10 wether its obesity induced or not, when someone has really low T they also have super low E, cause they are not producing enough T to even make it. This may be hard for someone like you to understand because you are so hung up on high E inducing lowT. Its really not that hard to figure out though.

So what your telling me his obesity induced hypo has everything to do with E suppressing his T? Im here to tell you that is incorrect, that it most likely started with a carb enriched diet that left his insulin at peak for a much longer period of the day, starting a chain reaction beginning with lowering his GH and ending with increased adipose tissue, increasing his E and suppressing his T, not to meant ion about a dozen other things.

As far as being late to the party, yes I was, thats why I stated in the thread that I do not have time to look through the whole thing and that since smarty pants asked me to see if I could find his "underlying cause" , I took a look at his latest bloods, and guess what, insulin resistance hit me in the head like a ton of bricks.

Now you can sit here and jerk off to your articulate post's all day long going back and forth on what the issue is, trying to widdle it down to a singular event or hormone that put him in this position, well it is a culmination of shit that landed him here...................... not high E, and thats what I was pointing out. Not once did I EVER try to say it wasn't obesity induced.

As you guys put him through every test in the book to find out if you can rectify the problem, he could have done it much quicker by replacing his T for some months to correct BMI and then try to come off and see if it holds.

"OMG nancy dont do that you might suppress him with testosterone" well it doesn't really matter does it since he is already suppressed. Then maybe he could have done a restart and came back, all the time fixing his problem much quicker without danger, in my opinion less danger than leaving him with the T of a 50 year old woman for a year while you guys get your jollies off on doing it "all natural"

I live in the real world, not in cyber space, and if you did the same maybe you would realize that all this he said she said and this did that and that did this doesn't really fucking matter. The only thing that matters is getting his BMI down and then seeing if his little nuts will come back to form and I'm telling you there is a much faster way to do it...................how am I so sure? cause I have helped those do it multiple times................................ now please see if you can twist some of my words again to make yourself like you have the first clue on what it takes to ACTUALLY DO IT IN THE REAL WORLD.

I give results, not lets do six different things and then cross our fingers to see if it works............................I know what works...........thats the difference between experience and reading things on google

Now as you sit here and give this guy 1800 blood tests so you can learn a thing a 2 about him, I will have helped 10 guys achieve a better quality of life while simultaneously reducing his risk factors for disease.

THis is either T induced rage or someone with wayyyy too much time on their hands.

 

[idmd]

No look what I said here, did I imply ever that it was not obesity induced Hypo?



This makes absolutely no sense, even if you agree Dr Scally. Somehow you have taken my words and managed to make it seem like I was implying that he did not have obesity induced Hypogonadism simply to make yourself look smart and that irritates me.

Thanks for trying to stop misinformation from going to the "new guy" even though I said it like 5 times that his LowT was caused by his obesity.

What I was trying to clarify is that it may not be due to his E, cause it seems like thats the only thing you know, what about his insulin being through the roof? Do you not realize that is actually more likely to suppress his T than high E? and THAT was very high as a matter of fact, so to re iterate what I said "it is a culmination of factors" not just high E suppressing his T.

as for the comment I am wrong about someone not having enough T to convert to E how exactly does that make any sense whatsoever, I am beginning to wonder if you have ever actually looked at a blood test. 9x out of 10 wether its obesity induced or not, when someone has really low T they also have super low E, cause they are not producing enough T to even make it. This may be hard for someone like you to understand because you are so hung up on high E inducing lowT. Its really not that hard to figure out though.

So what your telling me his obesity induced hypo has everything to do with E suppressing his T? Im here to tell you that is incorrect, that it most likely started with a carb enriched diet that left his insulin at peak for a much longer period of the day, starting a chain reaction beginning with lowering his GH and ending with increased adipose tissue, increasing his E and suppressing his T, not to meant ion about a dozen other things.

As far as being late to the party, yes I was, thats why I stated in the thread that I do not have time to look through the whole thing and that since smarty pants asked me to see if I could find his "underlying cause" , I took a look at his latest bloods, and guess what, insulin resistance hit me in the head like a ton of bricks.

Now you can sit here and jerk off to your articulate post's all day long going back and forth on what the issue is, trying to widdle it down to a singular event or hormone that put him in this position, well it is a culmination of shit that landed him here...................... not high E, and thats what I was pointing out. Not once did I EVER try to say it wasn't obesity induced.

As you guys put him through every test in the book to find out if you can rectify the problem, he could have done it much quicker by replacing his T for some months to correct BMI and then try to come off and see if it holds.

"OMG nancy dont do that you might suppress him with testosterone" well it doesn't really matter does it since he is already suppressed. Then maybe he could have done a restart and came back, all the time fixing his problem much quicker without danger, in my opinion less danger than leaving him with the T of a 50 year old woman for a year while you guys get your jollies off on doing it "all natural"

I live in the real world, not in cyber space, and if you did the same maybe you would realize that all this he said she said and this did that and that did this doesn't really fucking matter. The only thing that matters is getting his BMI down and then seeing if his little nuts will come back to form and I'm telling you there is a much faster way to do it...................how am I so sure? cause I have helped those do it multiple times................................ now please see if you can twist some of my words again to make yourself like you have the first clue on what it takes to ACTUALLY DO IT IN THE REAL WORLD.

I give results, not lets do six different things and then cross our fingers to see if it works............................I know what works...........thats the difference between experience and reading things on google

Now as you sit here and give this guy 1800 blood tests so you can learn a thing a 2 about him, I will have helped 10 guys achieve a better quality of life while simultaneously reducing his risk factors for disease.

I have to say I find the logic and passion compelling........no bull shit.

 

[newbie23]

T induced rage hunh............... that right there shows me how much you actually have a clue...............testosterone promotes socialization, maybe with your short answer you need some.

Testosterones Bad Rep

Most people particularly women link high testosterone levels with antisocial, egotistical, and aggressive behavior. A study from the University of Zurich in Switzerland showed that testosterone promoted cooperative behavior. They gave women either testosterone or a placebo that the women thought was testosterone and measured fair bargaining behavior. A single dose of testosterone in women increased fair bargaining behavior, reduced bargaining conflicts, and smoothed social interactions. Women who took the placebo, but thought they were getting testosterone, behaved more unfairly and stubbornly. Testosterone promotes socialization; its bad boy reputation is an urban legend.

(Nature, 463: published online January 21, 2010).
Blechman, S., & Fahey, T. (2010). Testosterone's Bad Rep. Muscular Development , 47 (5), 126.

Im not surprised though, this forum has always been full with people that claim to know everything about TRT, yet the sole purpose seems to direct people away from it...................................

I see your jumping on the band wagon Scally........... its actually really surprising how much your views on anabolics have changed in the recent 2 years Ive read your post's.................Hypocrite

 

[toolman]

I have to say I find the logic and passion compelling........no bull shit.

Not really idmd. He has a basic knowledge from reading and being on TRT, no formal education in the field or degree or published articles in any field that he is referencing. He continues to put others down and knock their knowledge of TRT claiming his knowledge is superior. With this and his childish name calling he clearly suffers from an inferiority complex. That is buttressed by his need to constantly say 90% of all MD's are idiots and don't know as much as he does. Any of us in the real world realize that 90% of any given field are idiots. Apparently he manages multiple doctors and patients, yet has more than enough time to write these commical hate peices arguing with everyone.

An intelligent or educated man would present his case and have an open mind to be questioned and challenged. His mind immediately reverts to name calling and "I know everything and you know nothing". I am betting he is a pretty short guy that went to community college.

 

[idmd]

Not really idmd. He has a basic knowledge from reading and being on TRT, no formal education in the field or degree or published articles in any field that he is referencing. He continues to put others down and knock their knowledge of TRT claiming his knowledge is superior. With this and his childish name calling he clearly suffers from an inferiority complex. That is buttressed by his need to constantly say 90% of all MD's are idiots and don't know as much as he does. Any of us in the real world realize that 90% of any given field are idiots. Apparently he manages multiple doctors and patients, yet has more than enough time to write these commical hate peices arguing with everyone.

An intelligent or educated man would present his case and have an open mind to be questioned and challenged. His mind immediately reverts to name calling and "I know everything and you know nothing". I am betting he is a pretty short guy that went to community college.

Well yeah.....I've taken the brunt of his venom....I was just trying to calm the waters.

 

[toolman]

Well yeah.....I've taken the brunt of his venom....I was just trying to calm the waters.

As a rational and educated man, you took the higher road. Let's both do so and ignore him. He reminds me of that line from Macbeth...a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing

 

[newbie23]

Not really idmd. He has a basic knowledge from reading and being on TRT, no formal education in the field or degree or published articles in any field that he is referencing. He continues to put others down and knock their knowledge of TRT claiming his knowledge is superior. With this and his childish name calling he clearly suffers from an inferiority complex. That is buttressed by his need to constantly say 90% of all MD's are idiots and don't know as much as he does. Any of us in the real world realize that 90% of any given field are idiots. Apparently he manages multiple doctors and patients, yet has more than enough time to write these commical hate peices arguing with everyone.

An intelligent or educated man would present his case and have an open mind to be questioned and challenged. His mind immediately reverts to name calling and "I know everything and you know nothing". I am betting he is a pretty short guy that went to community college.

Oh gosh Scally jump on the band wagon, it was just a few short years ago that you were recommending people do cycles of 600mg of deca and 200 mg of test, so jump all over it I know your story and how full of shit you can be.

as for you Mr Toolman I am sure I am twice your size and honestly could care less about proving it. As far as me not having written any articles or having published research I will say again that your articles are usually worthless as they have no practical application in the real world, most of the time.

I am surprised your not aware of this because your band wagon follower that now purportedly does not support TRT anymore, actually makes it a particular job of his to make sure people know that most of the bullshit dredged up has no application to treating men with Hypogonadism in the real world.

I never said my knowledge was superior to everyones, but it is painfully obvious your experience, along with the many others in this thread comes from reading, not practical application.....................................

Its amazing how little the medical field as whole actually knows about hormones. There is no "class" to teach someone about HRT.................

 

[newbie23]

How long has everyone been on TRT and have you been happy with the decision to go on? Also what delivery method have you found to work best.

I ask because I started with a TRT clinic, big mistake. Docs didnt want to do follow up bloodwork until 6th month and had me on 200mgs a wek injections. I felt great but got my own test on hematocri, lipids, all things I knew I should be watching and not only after 6 months. I decided to bail on the clinic and find a real endocrinologist that specializes in androgen replacement. After alot of googling I came acrod Dr. Hulinsky. I went to Dr. Hulinsky who is mentioned in this forum and others as one of the gurus in CT. First let me say the man is a complete professional who spent alot of time taking medical history and detailed all of the bloodwork that the clinic failed to perform searching for primary or secondary issues. It was so refreshing to meet someone that knew far more than what I have read in so many books that caused me to seek him out and question my TRT clinic doctor.He is not in the business of selling testosterone like many of these clinics. THe fact that he accepts insurance proves that. He has me coming off the injections so he can get all my baseline numbers tested. I am now back to where I started, no libido, can get it up with ED drug assistance, not feeling as great as I was on. However on my BP was high, hematocrit just under 52, all things I do not want to deal with. My health is more important to me than my libido and drive. I am just wondering what others have found longer term and trying to decide if my baseline shows secondary and no other issues, if I should take on the risks or just let things be.

and now I see what your problem is. You are one of the many that have it out for TRT clinics, like a woman scorn.

 

[newbie23]

THanks rm. Do you use gel or injectable? I heard the gel is better with regard to not having hematocrit issus as much as well as not affecting lipid profiles negatively. That said I am afraid of transfer issues to my wife or kids as well as higher DHT conversions and hair growth at application sites I have read about. I would love to get some first hand fedback on any of this. You also mentioned that TRT took away your libido? Is that common for many? Mine went through the roof but was only on for 8 weeks. Are you on a higher dose where it could have been an E or E2 issue?

It wasn't that injectable that messed up your Hemo, it was the fact you pinged your levels up to 2,000 constantly for 8 weeks, you didn't need to find a new doc. you needed to lower your dose, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Now I see that it is you who you were referring to when you spoke about me, someone who merely read about TRT online with no clinical experience whatsoever.............................. that has now been reading Meso since April and is now an expert.

Just another Newb telling me I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground................... thanks for you comments.

 

[newbie23]

Im just a wee little fella [)]

 

[toolman]

and now I see what your problem is. You are one of the many that have it out for TRT clinics, like a woman scorn.

You start with calling people names and obscenities and now you have regressed to calling people woman...what's next, your daddy will beat up my daddy. Each of your successive posts show those of us that are educated what a child you are. " I'm twice your size:" Oh no... not another internet tough guy.

You are clearly not worthy of any intellectual back and forth so stop wasting the time of those of us that seek to learn from knowledgeable sources. Don't you have 20 some odd doctors calling you for advice?!? How ever do you find the time to dredge up peoples posts and childishly call them woman, or idiot, or whatever else your limited pea brain can come up with. Just remember, most of us are no longer 11 and find it comical and sad rather than insulting.

 

[newbie23]

You start with calling people names and obscenities and now you have regressed to calling people woman...what's next, your daddy will beat up my daddy. Each of your successive posts show those of us that are educated what a child you are. " I'm twice your size:" Oh no... not another internet tough guy.

You are clearly not worthy of any intellectual back and forth so stop wasting the time of those of us that seek to learn from knowledgeable sources. Don't you have 20 some odd doctors calling you for advice?!? How ever do you find the time to dredge up peoples posts and childishly call them woman, or idiot, or whatever else your limited pea brain can come up with. Just remember, most of us are no longer 11 and find it comical and sad rather than insulting.

[)] Hey you guys started the badgering, I simply gave back what was being dished out

No internet tough guy here, your the one who said I had short mans complex, when I'm 6'4 ahahahahah

 

[toolman]

Im just a wee little fella [)]

How cute, Napolean is sending us pictures. Short guy arms clearly. I knew it was a height thing.